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Old 11-27-2017, 01:50 PM
DkTrdGuy DkTrdGuy is offline
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Can all information be found online?

Is everything posted online? I would assume. It might not be in one place, though. People have the compulsive need to flap their lips. Even regarding really sensitive information. I find it hard to believe there's information out there that has not been posted online.

But, I'm just an average Joe, what do I know?

Is a lot of information still in books? Passed down from competent mentors?
  #2  
Old 11-27-2017, 01:54 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Not all old printed material has been digitized, nor even will all of it ever be. And even if when it is, it's often just in low-quality scans that can't be searched. And a lot of what's passed down from mentor to apprentice can't really be condensed into a static form.

Plus, of course, there's plenty of information which has been lost completely, and is no longer available in any form. And far more information which nobody has ever had yet.
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:58 PM
Oakminster Oakminster is offline
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The contents of my wallet, safe deposit box, and any ammunition storage containers I may or may not own are not now and never will be online. So no, all information is not available online.
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  #4  
Old 11-27-2017, 02:10 PM
sbunny8 sbunny8 is offline
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Here's an example from the locksmithing world. In the 1970s and 80s, vehicle manufacturers kept databases correlating key codes with Vehicle ID Numbers. They made copies of this database on microfiche and handed them out to all the dealerships. If you ever lost your car key, you could ask the dealership to look up your key code, take that information to a locksmith, and get a new key. Around 1990 or so, they started putting the database in electronic format. But they never bothered to go back to the prior years and transfer the information from the microfiche to the computer. Eventually, all the dealerships just tossed the microfiche into the dumpster and now that information is lost forever. If your car is a 1996 there's a very good chance the dealer can look up your VIN in their computer and find the key code. But for a 1986 the chances are virtually zero.

There was an episode of Law & Order where a young lawyer complained about having to search, by hand, printed law books published prior to 1990. The second lawyer commented that no one wanted the job of taking all that old information and typing it into a computer.

Off the top of my head, I can think of lots of things that never get recorded anywhere. What color is my windbreaker? That's not a secret or anything. You can just look at me and see what the color is. Sure, the store I bought it from made a record of the original purchase, but there was no record made when it was donated to the thrift store and my receipt from when I purchased it at the thrift store only record the fact that it was menswear, didn't even record the type of clothing item, let alone the color. Hmm OTOH, maybe you could find a picture of me on Facebook where I'm wearing it. Perhaps that's not a perfect example after all.
  #5  
Old 11-27-2017, 02:14 PM
cochrane cochrane is online now
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Can all information be found online?

That's for me to know and you to find out.
  #6  
Old 11-27-2017, 02:30 PM
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Nope. I just did a historical talk, which included stuff from papers in a conference back to 1984. None of this exists online - IEEE didn't start digitizing them until a bit later. Luckily I had copies in my garage.

I suspect a good number of my 1950s SF magazines are not online either.
  #7  
Old 11-27-2017, 02:39 PM
beowulff beowulff is offline
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There’s vast amounts of information that isn’t online, but even more information that is on-line but nearly impossible to retrieve, because it is so poorly indexed.
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:51 PM
sbunny8 sbunny8 is offline
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My Google-fu is off today. I can't find a cite now, but I remember reading that more words and numbers were published online between 1995 and 2007 than all the words and numbers ever published on paper prior to 1995. Forgive me if I got the years wrong; I'm going from memory. In just over a decade, we doubled the amount of information the human species has recorded. Then between 2007 and 2016 we doubled it again. So, for things like books, scientific papers, news articles, blog posts, letters, emails, etc, you could make the case that 75% of all the information that humans have ever created is in digital form, precisely because it was created after 1995. Following this trend into the future, I can easily imagine 85%, 90%, 95%, etc. But that will never cover things prior to 1990-ish or things that nobody bothers to record, like what I ate for dinner last night.
  #9  
Old 11-27-2017, 03:44 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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And of that information which is online and in a retrievable form, a lot of it is on secured sites online, accessible only to people with the proper authorization (such as paid subscribers).
  #10  
Old 11-27-2017, 03:49 PM
griffin1977 griffin1977 is offline
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I am always amazed how unreliable a record the web is in many areas. I regularly look up something I remember from a book I have read (typically historical or scientific trivia), but can find no record of it online, and have to go back to the book I read it from to find a cite.
  #11  
Old 11-27-2017, 03:58 PM
Folly Folly is online now
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Would be hard to google most of the things in the Vatican Secret Archives.
  #12  
Old 11-27-2017, 04:22 PM
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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And of that information which is online and in a retrievable form, a lot of it is on secured sites online, accessible only to people with the proper authorization (such as paid subscribers).
Yes, it is often a source of frustration to me that Google stopped supplying newspaper archives and now you need a subscription to newspapers.com.
  #13  
Old 11-27-2017, 05:34 PM
campp campp is offline
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There’s vast amounts of information that isn’t online, but even more information that is on-line but nearly impossible to retrieve, because it is so poorly indexed.
Welcome to Geneology 101.
  #14  
Old 11-27-2017, 05:49 PM
markn+ markn+ is offline
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Welcome to Geneology 101.
I searched for "genealogy" but it didn't find your post!
  #15  
Old 11-27-2017, 06:08 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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The contents of my wallet, safe deposit box, and any ammunition storage containers I may or may not own are not now and never will be online. So no, all information is not available online.
Someone over at the NSA is chuckling right now.
  #16  
Old 11-27-2017, 06:09 PM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is offline
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We're in the process of cleaning out my house which contains stuff which originally belonged to my great-great grandparents. I've found drawings my mother made as a kid in the 1930's, the notes my dad made in his US sailor hard hat diving classes in the 1950's, and my own early attempts to create comic books in the 1960's. I guarantee none of that stuff is anywhere online, nor will it ever be.

My home is chock-full of information, and the majority of it can not be found online. I suspect it's that way for most people. I also suspect it'll stay that way for a long while yet; I have no plans on posting regular updates on how many cans of chicken consomme I have in the pantry, nor inventory the bin full of recyclables.
  #17  
Old 11-27-2017, 06:57 PM
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As a tax researcher, I may in theory want to go back and look at the legislative history of a law to see what the intent of Congress was. If it passed relatively recently, there's a good chance that all the hearing about the law are digitized and available somewhere. But from the pre-digital era? The library where I went to school is apparently one that is frequented by people wanting to track down this stuff because they have some stuff that no one else in the area has. It's such a niche use that no one really wants to take the time to digitize it all. There are other tax things that are unlikely to be found online as well due to age, but those legislative histories are the least likely to be easily searchable.
  #18  
Old 11-27-2017, 09:42 PM
Senegoid Senegoid is offline
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I'm no expert on information theory, but I imagine that it's totally impossible, even in theory, to publish all information on-line. I suspect Kurt Gödel, or at least Doug Hofstadter or maybe Russell, may have had something to say about this.
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2017, 09:44 PM
snfaulkner snfaulkner is online now
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What have I got in my pocket?
  #20  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:05 PM
Duckster Duckster is online now
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I doubt you will ever know the contents of the SDMB Mod Manual (aka, Hookers & Blow Guide to Chicago's Best, Brightest, and Occasionally Tepid).

  #21  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:12 PM
E-DUB E-DUB is offline
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No. And for what is the "signal to noise ratio" can be a real problem.
  #22  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:21 PM
beowulff beowulff is offline
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What have I got in my pocket?
The Preciousssssssss.
  #23  
Old 11-27-2017, 11:30 PM
Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is online now
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My bank pin#. And people who are in the witness protection program. Do they really even do that anymore?
  #24  
Old 11-27-2017, 11:33 PM
markn+ markn+ is offline
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What did Odin whisper into the ear of his dead son Baldr before he was burned on the pyre?
  #25  
Old 11-28-2017, 04:21 AM
TurboNuke TurboNuke is offline
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I work at a nuclear power plant. Some of the equipment is from the 60s and 70s. I find it annoying that I cant just google the model number and find a nice YouTube video on how to fix it unlike practically everything else in my life.
  #26  
Old 11-28-2017, 04:59 AM
JakeRS JakeRS is offline
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For example...Turkish army probably has military plans about how a war with Greece would look like, what each military unit's job would be, how to prepare for it and so on, Greece probably has one in return, every serious country has those types of plans. Try finding them and tell me how it goes.
  #27  
Old 11-28-2017, 09:38 AM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Beckdawrek, how can you possibly use your bank PIN if it's not online?

Likewise, Duckster, of course the SDMB moderators' manual is online. What, did you think that we all got it via FedEx or something?
  #28  
Old 11-28-2017, 11:23 AM
kunilou kunilou is offline
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In about 1955-56 my mother's case was written up in a small medical journal. The journal itself no longer exists and AFAICT has never been digitized, much less indexed.

The elementary schools I attended closed decades ago and I doubt the central offices retained every single report card from those years.
  #29  
Old 11-28-2017, 11:42 AM
gazpacho gazpacho is offline
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Beckdawrek, how can you possibly use your bank PIN if it's not online?
If his pin is really known by the bank instead of a hash of it known by the bank then the bank is doing a piss poor job of security.
  #30  
Old 11-28-2017, 11:59 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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My PIN is 4 digits. There is no difference between storing the PIN or storing the hash.

What about that "k of p in a dpb" or whatever it was? That doesn't seem to be online.
  #31  
Old 11-28-2017, 12:13 PM
mhendo mhendo is offline
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There are archives and research libraries all over the country, and all over the world, containing thousands upon thousands upon thousands of boxes of paper records, the vast majority of which will never be digitized.

The National Archives of the United States has about 2 million digitized records available through its website, but that represents a tiny percentage of all records held by the Archives. The digitized stuff generally represents materials from particularly popular or interesting topics. Much of the non-digitized stuff will probably never even be seen again by human eyes. It will sit in boxes until it's destroyed or falls to dust.
  #32  
Old 11-28-2017, 12:17 PM
boytyperanma boytyperanma is online now
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My office is a library of information that can't be found online. Old catalogs and performance charts for pumps made by long dead manufacturers. Well drilling logs from prior to the state recording them. Customer invoices and data cards for systems installed decades ago. Plenty of information of which I am the sole owner of.

I've made active effort to image and catalog the customer information so I can quickly reference it on my phone in the field, so much if it is online now. If someone wants to dig through my google drive they can find all types of obscure data. There are plenty of records to go, it's not a high priority project to image files we haven't needed in years.
I have multiple book cases of pump catalogs. If there is something I actually need to look up I'll snap a picture of the page so maybe it'll save me from looking it up again. Performance charts for pumps made 10 years ago can be difficult to find online. Ones from 60 years ago just don't exist outside dusty old books.
  #33  
Old 11-28-2017, 12:26 PM
ioioio ioioio is offline
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And of that information which is online and in a retrievable form, a lot of it is on secured sites online, accessible only to people with the proper authorization (such as paid subscribers).
U.S. census records are not available to the general public for 72 years.
Source.

On top of that, shit happens.
Quote:
Most of the [1890] census' population schedules were badly damaged by a fire in the Commerce Department Building in January 1921.
Source.

Quote:
Individual income tax returns — including those of public figures — are private information, protected by law from unauthorized disclosure. Indeed, the Internal Revenue Service is barred from releasing any taxpayer information whatsoever, except to authorized agencies and individuals.
Source.

Information may be out there somewhere, but that doesn't mean the average Joe can get to it.
  #34  
Old 11-28-2017, 12:44 PM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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What have I got in my pocket?
A mouse, duh.
  #35  
Old 11-28-2017, 01:07 PM
kunilou kunilou is offline
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On top of that, shit happens.
It happens to the military, too.
Quote:
On July 12, 1973, a disastrous fire at the National Personnel Records Center (NPRC) destroyed approximately 16-18 million Official Military Personnel Files (OMPF).
  #36  
Old 11-28-2017, 01:10 PM
gazpacho gazpacho is offline
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My PIN is 4 digits. There is no difference between storing the PIN or storing the hash.
1234 vs 03ac674216f3e15c761ee1a5e255f067953623c8b388b4459e13f978d7c846f4

One is a 4 digit pin the other is a hash. They are very different.
  #37  
Old 11-28-2017, 01:12 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by gazpacho View Post
1234 vs 03ac674216f3e15c761ee1a5e255f067953623c8b388b4459e13f978d7c846f4

One is a 4 digit pin the other is a hash. They are very different.
Ok, thanks for letting me know.
  #38  
Old 11-28-2017, 01:19 PM
gazpacho gazpacho is offline
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The supposedly confidential tax information is probably on some AWS drive (Amazon Web Services cloud computing) accidentally made available by some government contractor.
  #39  
Old 11-28-2017, 01:25 PM
CalMeacham CalMeacham is offline
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Can all information be found online?

I can say with confidence that it isn't. As Chronos immediately stated, not everything is digitized. While I'm constantly amazed at what is available online (my undergraduate thesis, it turns out. Not to mention a lot of my writings I never thought anyone had preserved), I'm annoyed by what isn't. For historical research I'm doing, an awful lot of books, journals, maps, and newspapers are not available anywhere except in person at the library or historical location.

Google Books is a constant frustration, often giving only some pages out of the book I want, or only a few selected issues of a magazine.
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  #40  
Old 11-28-2017, 01:31 PM
Ludovic Ludovic is offline
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Everyone's PIN is online assuming they use a 4-digit one. There's just no telling which one is yours
  #41  
Old 11-28-2017, 01:33 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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A hash still doesn't add any meaningful security for a four-digit PIN, because it's trivial to just try all 10,000 PINs until you find the one that matches the hash. Hashes are only relevant when you're hashing passwords, which (due to greater length and larger alphabet) can be much harder to search exhaustively. Well, at least if the password was chosen well, which most of them aren't, but security is at least possible.

And even if data is digitized, it might still never make it online. When I was an undergrad, the astronomy department had huge racks of paper tape of old data, that had never been transferred over to a new medium, and the machines built to read it were all scrapped. Every so often, a student would start some effort to get those read by improvising a scanner to do the job, or the like, but (being undergrads) never got the chance to finish the job. Eventually, all those racks of data just got thrown out. This sort of thing doesn't happen any more, now that people realize that keeping media updated is something that needs to be done, but it was pretty common back in the day.
  #42  
Old 11-28-2017, 02:03 PM
Yllaria Yllaria is offline
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There’s vast amounts of information that isn’t online, but even more information that is on-line but nearly impossible to retrieve, because it is so poorly indexed.
For several years my grandfather worked as an ice man. He worked at an ice manufacturing plant in San Pedro CA, which delivered blocks of ice to residents. When my mother died I inherited a couple of regional industry newsletters. I enjoyed reading the articles talking earnest trash about the perils and inefficiencies of refrigeration. I posted scans on a blog. I've never been able to google a link to them directly. I can google to my blog, because I know its name, and then search there, but googling directly to the newsletters is effectively impossible.

It doesn't help that the name of the newsletter is "Ice Picks".
  #43  
Old 11-28-2017, 02:18 PM
Bullitt Bullitt is offline
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Everyone's PIN is online assuming they use a 4-digit one. There's just no telling which one is yours
I have all of them!
  #44  
Old 11-28-2017, 02:21 PM
erysichthon erysichthon is offline
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I was a librarian for 30 years (retired now). From the mid-2000s on, I had lots of conversations that went like this:

Person: "What's it like being a librarian now that Google* has digitized everything?"
Me: "Google hasn't digitized everything."
Person: "Yes, they have. I read it somewhere. Have you started looking for a new career yet?"

*Sometimes it was the Library of Congress instead of Google.

Oh, and don't get me started on the people who claim to have a USB drive containing "every song ever written."
  #45  
Old 11-28-2017, 02:44 PM
Lucas Jackson Lucas Jackson is online now
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I was talking with an old friend of mine from Texas last night about Texas music. He asked me if I remembered the song, "Blah Blah Blah". I'd heard it before so this morning I tried googling it. I found this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=588560 from 2010. I tried find a way to buy it online but didn't have any more luck that the OP. So the internet doesn't have that...

ETA: It's this one: https://www.cowboylyrics.com/tabs/sa...lah-27335.html

Other searcher: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...0231445AAYmOK6

Last edited by Lucas Jackson; 11-28-2017 at 02:48 PM.
  #46  
Old 11-28-2017, 02:54 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Google has certainly made it a goal of theirs to digitize everything and get it all online. And they've made quite impressive progress. But they're still not remotely close to done, and won't be for a very long time, even if you only count public and semi-public information like books and newsletters. And there will always be some material, like most love letters, which will never be digitized.
  #47  
Old 11-28-2017, 03:05 PM
CalMeacham CalMeacham is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Google has certainly made it a goal of theirs to digitize everything and get it all online. And they've made quite impressive progress. But they're still not remotely close to done, and won't be for a very long time, even if you only count public and semi-public information like books and newsletters. And there will always be some material, like most love letters, which will never be digitized.
They may have made it their goal to digitize everything, but they certainly have not made it their goal to make it all available online. I frequently run into situations where they certainly have the book digitized, but only offer it in a "snippet" view, or when, after going through a few pages, I find a block that says that the rest isn't available.

I'm not just talking about recent things still under copyright. I frequently am frustrated by old, long out-of-copyright books that GoogleBooks witholds from me, although my search engine (usually Google itself) tantalizingly tells me that they have something with one of my keywords. It makes me want to strangle them.
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  #48  
Old 11-28-2017, 03:41 PM
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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Originally Posted by Yllaria View Post
For several years my grandfather worked as an ice man. He worked at an ice manufacturing plant in San Pedro CA, which delivered blocks of ice to residents. When my mother died I inherited a couple of regional industry newsletters. I enjoyed reading the articles talking earnest trash about the perils and inefficiencies of refrigeration. I posted scans on a blog. I've never been able to google a link to them directly. I can google to my blog, because I know its name, and then search there, but googling directly to the newsletters is effectively impossible.

It doesn't help that the name of the newsletter is "Ice Picks".
You should put them on archive.org.
  #49  
Old 11-28-2017, 06:15 PM
Two Many Cats Two Many Cats is online now
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Is the OP kidding? All information is not even close to being posted online. Puh-leese. Put the laptop down and get with the real world.
  #50  
Old 11-28-2017, 06:43 PM
DPRK DPRK is offline
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You should put them on archive.org.
Seconded.

And if you are a librarian, curator, or otherwise in charge of a valuable collection, and a corporation like Google comes to you with a generous offer to come in, ransack your stacks and digitise everything for free, please make triple-sure, in writing, that the license terms require them to make all derived materials openly available to you, your patrons, and the general public in perpetuity.
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