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  #51  
Old 12-04-2017, 09:37 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post

White rural? Again with the race based attacks?

It's not even rural vs urban. You honestly think 100% of a city or a farming community votes one party? This isn't the USSR. Even in cities you have splits between the parties. And if the "blues" are that much more civilized and intelligent how the hell did they lose to Trump?
Why do you insist these are race based attacks. These are statements of facts. Aren't those of you on the right always complaining when the left says 'thats racist' to shut down an argument? You're doing the same thing.

Here is a map of the 2016 election by county that also has county size.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...bama,_2016.svg

The biggest counties are either blue or only mildly red. The small counties are deeper red.

However there are a few small counties that are blue. Why are they blue? Because they are non-white.

Bullock county - 70% black
Greene county - 81% black
Macon county - 83% black
Perrry county - 69% black
etc

So I stand by my statement.

Counties that represent large cities tend to be blue (they aren't guaranteed to be blue, but they tend to be). Smaller rural counties are red, unless they are minority-majority. In that case, they are blue.

Hence my statement earlier. 'Rural white America'. Urban areas aren't the problem. Rural areas full of blacks, latinos, native americans, etc. aren't the problem. Rural white areas are the deep red part of America.

The counties won by Hillary Clinton make up 64% of GDP. The Trump counties make up 36% of GDP. The fact that Trump won 5x more counties isn't really relevant. Hillary won more votes and far more of the economy.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-a...utput-america/

I don't have the stats, but I've heard 80-90% of patents, innovations, etc. start in large urban areas. Virtually all of our colleges and universities are in urban or blue areas.

So yes. In America you have highly productive urban areas that make up the bulk of America's economy, culture, innovations, etc. being held back by rural white areas who keep voting based on bigotry, tribalism and superstition.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 12-04-2017 at 09:41 PM.
  #52  
Old 12-04-2017, 09:44 PM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
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Originally Posted by elbows View Post
How about a swap out with Canada? We give you our right wing true believers, (yes, Iím aware they pale in comparison to your lot, but they just need encouragement Iím sure!) In exchange you let your most troublesome liberal states secede and join our confederation. A strip down each coast ought to do it, NY, MASS, Washington State, California. (Ok, so I missed a few, but you get the idea!)

I should think a few more years of Trump and theyíll be ready to join our Socialist Gulag willingly. Besides if it comes to armed conflict in the streets, I gotta believe a fair number of Democrats are going to want to immigrate/ seek refugee status in the Northland. My idea just says a lot of mess for everyone.

Yíall get rid of those pesky Democrats, and they get an extremely similar, yet less gun riddled, kinder, gentler future. Plus great healthcare.

The rabid Republican dream is realized without opposition, the Democrats find a safe space. Itís a win/win to my mind.

Iím just saying, it could save a LOT of conflict, end the divide, and avoid possibly open conflict.

Just consider it, thatís all!
Before I agree to this: how do your cops feel about murdering unarmed black people?
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  #53  
Old 12-04-2017, 09:47 PM
Colibri Colibri is offline
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
It's not even rural vs urban. You honestly think 100% of a city or a farming community votes one party? This isn't the USSR. Even in cities you have splits between the parties. And if the "blues" are that much more civilized and intelligent how the hell did they lose to Trump?
Go away you mewling twit. Of course nothing he said implied any of that.

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Originally Posted by octopus
So mindset is linked to skin color now?
It's hard to believe anyone is this ignorant and naive. Mindset is linked to culture, ethnic background, and economic group, and all of those have correlations with race. (And note I said "linked to," not "absolutely determined by.")
  #54  
Old 12-04-2017, 09:48 PM
kayT kayT is offline
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So the rural areas are holding back the productive urban areas, huh? Do they grow a lot of food in the urban areas? I'm not very creative when I'm hungry.

It's so great to see that on the Dope where we are supposed to be smarter than average a thread like this reveals that all we can do is stand up and throw rocks at one another.
  #55  
Old 12-04-2017, 09:49 PM
E-DUB E-DUB is online now
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Can portions of Michigan come along?
  #56  
Old 12-04-2017, 09:55 PM
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Itís not that the same evils donít exist in the True North, just on a much tinier scale is all. School shootings, gun violence, racism, misogyny, we arenít immune after all. But the outcome is usually appropriate outrage and often positive if slow, change.

(Northern Michigan and Ohio Are already practically Canadian, I should think! That would be a seamless transition! )
  #57  
Old 12-04-2017, 09:55 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
Because I’m not being hysterical? This board is sad when it comes to assessing current reality in a historical context.
Current reality is that the POTUS hates America. And a vocal minority of American citizens, in possession of a significant amount of political power, are just fine with that.

Can you help me out with some historical context for assessing that?


N.B. The circumstances described in paragraph 1, above, are not in dispute.

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 12-04-2017 at 09:57 PM.
  #58  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:10 PM
octopus octopus is offline
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
Current reality is that the POTUS hates America. And a vocal minority of American citizens, in possession of a significant amount of political power, are just fine with that.

Can you help me out with some historical context for assessing that?


N.B. The circumstances described in paragraph 1, above, are not in dispute.
Heís crazy and ignorant, sure, but you think Trump actually hates the USA?
  #59  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:13 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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He has demonstrated that he hates every single positive attribute and virtue that America aspires to on her best day. That's a reasonable proxy for hating America. As I said, not in dispute.
  #60  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:15 PM
running coach running coach is online now
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Heís crazy and ignorant, sure, but you think Trump actually hates the USA?
He hates that it's not the dystopia he claims it is.
  #61  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:15 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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So the rural areas are holding back the productive urban areas, huh?
They elected Trump and the GOP congress. What do we have to show for that? Attempts to repeal the ACA and pass tax hikes on the middle class to fund tax cuts on the rich.

Guess who is going to vote for Roy Moore in Alabama? I'll give you a hint. Rural whites.

Rural white areas. White. Rural non-white areas aren't voting for plutocratic, white nationalistic, morally bankrupt politicians. Just because something is insulting doesn't mean it isn't true.

Having said that, the dems aren't perfect. California has one party rule. They still aren't passing meaningful health care reform because nobody wants to take on the health industry.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 12-04-2017 at 10:16 PM.
  #62  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:17 PM
Guest-starring: Id! Guest-starring: Id! is offline
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Meh. We've been through a lot in 241 years. Hell, we survived Nixon.

But he didn't have the pleasure of enjoying a congress that looks the other way if he'd bayonetted an entire pre-school.
  #63  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:17 PM
asahi asahi is online now
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The problem is not Trump. The problem is many millions are happy with him and many more millions tolerate them.
This.

Trump is a symptom if the disease and not the disease itself. In the short-term, no, I'm not hopeful at all, because the United States has an illness called conservatism that needs to run its full course. But once our immune system kicks in, once we figure out that we can do better than this, I think we've got a good generation or two that can really make this country work. My generation sucks - we were brainwashed by the Reagan revolution so it won't be us who saves the world. But maybe my nieces' generation and their children.
  #64  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:18 PM
Senegoid Senegoid is offline
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How about a swap out with Canada? We give you our right wing true believers, (yes, Iím aware they pale in comparison to your lot, but they just need encouragement Iím sure!) In exchange you let your most troublesome liberal states secede and join our confederation. A strip down each coast ought to do it, NY, MASS, Washington State, California. (Ok, so I missed a few, but you get the idea!)
This idea has been around since 2004, and has its own Wikipedia page, including a proposed map.

United States of Canada and Jesusland.
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  #65  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:24 PM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
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Having said that, the dems aren't perfect. California has one party rule. They still aren't passing meaningful health care reform because nobody wants to take on the health industry.
OTOH, they have at least some semblance of family leave. It isn't great, but it's at least there. And I know there's at least a push in MA to get it on the ballot next year.

We couldn't have that if we had more Republicans in our state, that's for damn sure.
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  #66  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:58 PM
Clothahump Clothahump is offline
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Originally Posted by Neo-Calredic View Post
One simple question: Do you have hope for the future of the United States?

Speaking for myself, I have precious little hope left. Every few days brings some affront to common decency from the piece of human filth currently festooning the Oval Office.
It's statements like this that show that our only hope for survival is to keep liberals out of government.
  #67  
Old 12-04-2017, 11:04 PM
Procrustus Procrustus is offline
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
This.

Trump is a symptom if the disease and not the disease itself. In the short-term, no, I'm not hopeful at all, because the United States has an illness called conservatism that needs to run its full course. ..
I'm not a fan of conservatism, but a principled conservatism is a problem I'd love to have. What he have now is just bat shit crazy, and it's not "conservatism" to support it.

It's something far worse.
  #68  
Old 12-04-2017, 11:05 PM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is offline
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I don't have much hope.

I turned 20 in 1968, so I was around as an adult for the upheaval that wracked our country then and in the years after. But I had the sense that enough good people were still in charge that the ship would right itself or at least not crash on the rocks and be lost. Even during Watergate, I never feared for the country. But now I do. Because "the call is coming from inside the house," as it were. To continue the nautical conceit, there is no one of sound mind and good heart at the helm. The Republicans are in charge of the presidency, congress, the courts (and will continue to pack the federal court system), and the current Republican party has no care for the country, no principles except #MEMEME, and no regard for morality. The fact that millions of people support this government is alarming. Hell, I know some of these people personally and the level of their fucking stupidity is beyond belief.

Maybe in a fifty or a hundred years, the country will be back on track, but I won't live to see it. I don't have children or any family, and I feel sorry for those of you who will have to live through the next fifty years.
  #69  
Old 12-04-2017, 11:09 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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But he didn't have the pleasure of enjoying a congress that looks the other way if he'd bayonetted an entire pre-school.
Absolutely. In Nixon's day, there were members of the GOP in congress with ethics. Members who would not see their own country go down the toilet just to appease the ego of one crazed man.

Today? Hell, most of today's GOP house and senate would fellate Putin on television if Trump told them to.
  #70  
Old 12-04-2017, 11:11 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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I'm not a fan of conservatism, but a principled conservatism is a problem I'd love to have. What he have now is just bat shit crazy, and it's not "conservatism" to support it.

It's something far worse.
Basically, what we have now is Clothahump styled conservatism; It boils down to "fuck you liberals, I will burn down my own country and sell the ashes to the Russians just to make you angry"
  #71  
Old 12-04-2017, 11:21 PM
Try2B Comprehensive Try2B Comprehensive is offline
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Yes, I still have hope for the United States. The Greatest Country on Earth will eventually make a perfectly acceptable #2 or #3.

I think we will innovate our way out of this. We are the cradle of Democracy, and we take global culture into uncharted territory. We are the home of free speech, free religion, free gun ownership, free to smoke pot, free to scam your countrymen out of a trillion dollars or be a crack-crazed hobo. Pretty much free everything except health care.

What I think is going on is a consequence of our innovation. As we proceed into the early innings of the Information Age, people are confronted with way more knowledge and connectivity than they ever had before. It is coming as a surprise to rural conservatives that, say, gays have been running around off the leash so to speak for a long time, long before Obama or anyone else came along and passed a civil rights law in their favor. City people are surprised to learn how seriously some people take their fundamentalist religion, for one example. Multiply this by 100 or 1000 and people are shocked to learn what their countrymen are up to, what they really think. The nation is becoming self-aware, but the expanded consciousness makes room for a rather schizo national character.

It is a kind of spasm I think, one which will resolve itself. Speaking of connectivity, Did You Know?! lots of rural areas in the US still do not have adequate internet access. So we're all screaming 100 flavors of bullshit at each other on here, but they are kind of distanced from it. I think a lot of rural people are somewhat jealous of others when they see all the things that are available somewhere other than where they are. So maybe try to be a little nicer to them, I think that a lot of them are dealing with sadness and don't need it reinforced.

I think virtual reality has the potential to be an almost revolutionary technology once it becomes widespread. The potential for people anywhere in the world to have such immersive experiences of pretty much anywhere or anything else in the world can potentially assuage a lot of the isolation that leads to so many other problems. I think the experiences are still going to be fragmented more than they were during the era of 3 major TV networks, but they will be far more immersive and I think there will be a move back toward at least more common experience among the general population. I think there will be increased common understanding, even if not perfect understanding. I think people will simply process and get used to the information that is already out there.

I think things are pretty discordant right now, and people who have been left out have finally gotten a voice, and maybe don't even know what to do with it yet. But I think there will be more harmonious times ahead.

Link.
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  #72  
Old 12-05-2017, 01:27 AM
Not Carlson Not Carlson is offline
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Not until the white baby boomers die off.

Obviously not all of them are bad (lots of white baby boomers are good people), but most brainwashed, pathologically selfish right wingers are white people over age 50.

So do I have hope? Yes, but not until the 2030s or so. By then many of the angry, brainwashed white nationalist voters will be dead and replaced by millennials and minorities. My hope is that from the 2018-2030 period the dems can win one house of congress or the presidency long enough to stop the GOP from doing too much damage. The GOP having both houses of congress and the presidency is a pretty big problem that has to be blocked.

Not all, but enough to move the overton window.

But I could be wrong. America is getting more and more insane with time, not less.
Bullshit seen, bullshit called.

Although there is a whiff of logic behind this pungent deposit, and I understand the thinking behind it, it's still a bullshit thing to say.

Not only are there plenty of honest Boomers of all shades earnestly trying to make the world a little better, there are enough mean-minded Gen-Xers and Millennials of all shades currently working to screw it all up that you will be greatly disappointed if you think waiting for all the old white dudes to die off is the solution to your problems.

That said, as a proverbial concerned neighbour peering through the window, I offer my genuine sympathy to those currently suffering the anxiety of being plunged into the Bizarro World of Trumpmerica. And a hearty "damn you" to the mean-spirited and willfully ignorant wretches who take delight in mocking your concerns.
  #73  
Old 12-05-2017, 01:40 AM
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The US has survived some serious shit; while the current situation has shown some stark internal divisions and some people are happily taking advantage of them, realizing you have a problem is also the first step to solving it.

Will the country change? Yes, but that happens to all countries all the time. It's up to y'all to get the change to be for the better.
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  #74  
Old 12-05-2017, 01:56 AM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is offline
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Originally Posted by What Exit? View Post
We tend to go 2 steps forward and then 1 step back in the USA.
Damn you, Hegel.



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Originally Posted by Not Carlson View Post
Bullshit seen, bullshit called.

Although there is a whiff of logic behind this pungent deposit, and I understand the thinking behind it, it's still a bullshit thing to say.

Not only are there plenty of honest Boomers of all shades earnestly trying to make the world a little better, there are enough mean-minded Gen-Xers and Millennials of all shades currently working to screw it all up that you will be greatly disappointed if you think waiting for all the old white dudes to die off is the solution to your problems.
Wesley's argument doesn't require generations to be monolithic. If you look at the demographics of 2016 voters*, likely demographic changes and the fact that Trump barely squeaked through in many swing states, his election is analogous to the Battle of the Bulge or the Pickett's charge of middle-aged and elderly white evangelical supremacism rather than a turning point in its favor. They'll still have an outsized influence but they won't be the controlling majority group anymore which is a big part of why they're so scared and spiteful.


*https://decisiondeskhq.com/data-dive...ender-and-age/ http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37922587 http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...oll_religrace/
  #75  
Old 12-05-2017, 07:15 AM
marshmallow marshmallow is offline
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It's a second gilded age, tens of thousands die from lack of healthcare every year and even more go bankrupt, the infrastructure is falling apart, the rich are looting the place, and the Earth is dying, but it's OK because Silicon Valley will fix everything and definitely not usher in a cyberpunk dystopia.

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So the rural areas are holding back the productive urban areas, huh? Do they grow a lot of food in the urban areas? I'm not very creative when I'm hungry.
When liberals use this sort of classist, welfare shaming language to describe red states sometimes they're trying to by-your-logic conservatives (like that ever works) and sometimes their inner reactionary is coming to the fore. I used to indulge that impulse, born from a mix of hopelessness and spite, but blaming the poor is a terrible look. Any popular resistance will require recruiting red staters en masse.

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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
I'm not sure what your referring to here, but whatever policy differences you might have had with President Obama, I doubt it's accurate to call it "an all out assault on American homeowners."
Obama took the side of the banks after the crash.

Quote:
Third, Obama enabled and encouraged roughly 9 million foreclosures. This was Geithner’s explicit policy at Treasury. The Obama administration put together a foreclosure program that it marketed as a way to help homeowners, but when Elizabeth Warren, then chairman of the Congressional Oversight Panel, grilled Geithner on why the program wasn’t stopping foreclosures, he said that really wasn’t the point. The program, in his view, was working. “We estimate that they can handle 10 million foreclosures, over time,” Geithner said — referring to the banks. “This program will help foam the runway for them.” For Geithner, the most productive economic policy was to get banks back to business as usual.
Should've foamed the runways into a guillotine.

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Originally Posted by Sunny Daze View Post
Living through this isn't great, but I think we'll make it out. What's been broken can be fixed.
Dead people don't come back to life, the environment is not so easily healed, and nations shattered by war carry those scars for generations. Europeans are still killed and maimed by WW1 munitions.

Last edited by marshmallow; 12-05-2017 at 07:16 AM.
  #76  
Old 12-05-2017, 07:37 AM
asahi asahi is online now
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Wesley's argument doesn't require generations to be monolithic. If you look at the demographics of 2016 voters*, likely demographic changes and the fact that Trump barely squeaked through in many swing states, his election is analogous to the Battle of the Bulge or the Pickett's charge of middle-aged and elderly white evangelical supremacism rather than a turning point in its favor. They'll still have an outsized influence but they won't be the controlling majority group anymore which is a big part of why they're so scared and spiteful.
To some degree, what we're experiencing is cyclical and somewhat predictable, though I would stop short of saying that it's necessarily inevitable. My parent's generation grew up during the WWII and Great Depression era and lived through an America that overcame long odds through cooperation, rather than just brutal, zero-sum competition. In overcoming these odds we created a very prosperous society, and in many ways, produced the highest standard of living enjoyed by any society in the history of humankind (there were exceptions of course). The WWII generation left their posterity with a comfortable material world. But subsequent generations have identified less with the kinds of cooperation that helped create this society. We've become consumers. We buy stuff, which is a behavior that seems to have a disproportionate influence on our identity. We've become more and more segmented in this way, and so it's not surprising that we're at each other's throats because our differences have been increasingly accentuated over the years. This is why I'm pessimistic, because I think it will unfortunately require a shared common hardship to force us to understand ourselves and to make us reflect on our values, not just as Americans, but as humans first.
  #77  
Old 12-05-2017, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
To some degree, what we're experiencing is cyclical and somewhat predictable, though I would stop short of saying that it's necessarily inevitable. My parent's generation grew up during the WWII and Great Depression era and lived through an America that overcame long odds through cooperation, rather than just brutal, zero-sum competition. In overcoming these odds we created a very prosperous society, and in many ways, produced the highest standard of living enjoyed by any society in the history of humankind (there were exceptions of course). The WWII generation left their posterity with a comfortable material world. But subsequent generations have identified less with the kinds of cooperation that helped create this society. We've become consumers. We buy stuff, which is a behavior that seems to have a disproportionate influence on our identity. We've become more and more segmented in this way, and so it's not surprising that we're at each other's throats because our differences have been increasingly accentuated over the years. This is why I'm pessimistic, because I think it will unfortunately require a shared common hardship to force us to understand ourselves and to make us reflect on our values, not just as Americans, but as humans first.
You realize that trade and capitalism grow an economy? The competition is not zero sum.
  #78  
Old 12-05-2017, 08:09 AM
asahi asahi is online now
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You realize that trade and capitalism grow an economy? The competition is not zero sum.
Yes, I realize that. Do you? That's the question. Do you and other conservatives realize that?
  #79  
Old 12-05-2017, 08:15 AM
Hamlet Hamlet is offline
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I do still have hope, and I do believe the country will survive, and maybe even thrive, after this administration and its codependent party of hookers are done with it.

What concerns me the most is that, as a country, we're not learning from our mistakes. We've tried unregulated markets before ... it didn't work out well (except for the super-rich). We've done the tax cuts for the corporations and "trickle down" theory ... didn't work. We've have periods of little to no regulation and even less enforcement of environmental laws/education requirements/consumer protection laws ... not great. We've tried the "fuck you, we're awesome" way of handling foreign affairs ... not a win. We've been down this road before, and yet, here we are again, with the Republicans happily driving the van into the ditch. Again.

It's not unsalvageable. But unless some people put aside their blinders and start learning from history, we'll be back here again in another decade or two.
  #80  
Old 12-05-2017, 08:26 AM
John Bredin John Bredin is offline
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Originally Posted by kayT View Post
So the rural areas are holding back the productive urban areas, huh? Do they grow a lot of food in the urban areas? I'm not very creative when I'm hungry.

It's so great to see that on the Dope where we are supposed to be smarter than average a thread like this reveals that all we can do is stand up and throw rocks at one another.
Urbanites didn't vote for Democrats who'd oppose the farm bill, rural highways, etc. but rural dwellers voted for Republicans who begrudge the urban states infrastructure and even hurricane relief. Urban politicians didn't imply in speech after speech that rural dwellers weren't "real Americans," but rural-state politicians have thus slandered patriotic urbanite Americans. Like many other issues, this is not a "both sides do it" thing.
  #81  
Old 12-05-2017, 08:50 AM
Not Carlson Not Carlson is offline
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Wesley's argument doesn't require generations to be monolithic. If you look at the demographics of 2016 voters*, likely demographic changes and the fact that Trump barely squeaked through in many swing states, his election is analogous to the Battle of the Bulge or the Pickett's charge of middle-aged and elderly white evangelical supremacism rather than a turning point in its favor. They'll still have an outsized influence but they won't be the controlling majority group anymore which is a big part of why they're so scared and spiteful.
Fair enough.
The sources both you and Wesley Clark provide do show quite clearly that Trump's support is strongest among those who can check at least three boxes among the demographics of Old, White, Cristian or Male. So the suggestion that America may be in a better place when the number of old white Christian males has shrunk to a point where they no longer have a significant influence on the politics of the nation is not unreasonable.

I nevertheless maintain that the attitude of "no hope until such-and-such a group dies off" is a rather horrible approach to the current sad state of affairs. Even if I have had similar thoughts from time to time.

So, as for my calling "bullshit" on Wesley, I shall eat my words, but I shall do so while grumbling under my breath.
(Munch-munch. Grumble-grumble. Pass the salt.)
  #82  
Old 12-05-2017, 09:05 AM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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The OP's right. All hope is gone.

Emigrate now, but send me your good stuff first. It'll just weigh you down on the long journey to Hope.
  #83  
Old 12-05-2017, 09:06 AM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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America became better off when the slave owning generation died off around the early 20th century. We are better off now that the 'Segregation now, Segregation forever' generation died off.

Say what you will, but I want to live in a society without brainwashed people who think child molestation and treason are acceptable as long as you aren't a Democrat while you do it. When those people die off society will Improve. Granted America will always have dysfunctional people and maybe it'll get worse, not better with time. But the most irrational, misinformed, undemocratic Americans tend to be whites over age 50. Lots of whites over 50 are good people, but that demographic makes up the bulk of Americas dysfunctional voters.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 12-05-2017 at 09:08 AM.
  #84  
Old 12-05-2017, 09:32 AM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is offline
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Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
...Lots of whites over 50 are good people....
This old white lady thanks you for that.
  #85  
Old 12-05-2017, 09:39 AM
Uniqueorn Uniqueorn is online now
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Not a lot of hope

There seems to be something in many Americans' psyche that values selfishness over altruism, tribalism over internationalism, fear over empathy and belief over rational thinking.

Fun, if you're part of that mindset, unbelievably frustrating if you're not.
  #86  
Old 12-05-2017, 09:45 AM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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This old white lady thanks you for that.
Even among white baby boomers, the most partisan racial and age generation for Trump, 34% of them voted for Clinton. Another 4% voted third party.

So you put ten white baby boomers in a room, and four did not support Trump. They aren't all horrible people by any means. I know a lot of white people over age 50 who are very good people. I know lots of rural whites who are good people

But sadly, if someone is extremely angry, misinformed, hostile to the rule of law, values partisanship over competence or criminality, etc there is a good chance they are white and over age 50. That has been my experience. I think 2/3 of the tea party were whites over age 50.
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  #87  
Old 12-05-2017, 09:57 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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So the rural areas are holding back the productive urban areas, huh? Do they grow a lot of food in the urban areas? I'm not very creative when I'm hungry.

It's so great to see that on the Dope where we are supposed to be smarter than average a thread like this reveals that all we can do is stand up and throw rocks at one another.
Do the rural areas produce the tractors they use? Do they produce their own weather reports? Do rural areas not receive tax payer assistance in various forms of agricultural subsidies and crop insurance?

I could go on, I suppose, but you get the point, the rural areas would be a bunch of subsistence farmers, were it not for the support that comes from the urban areas. Rural america would not survive without the support of those in the cities.

OTOH, if all the rural land was turned over to big mega farming corps, kicking out all the small farmers, the people in the cities wouldn't notice a thing.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 12-05-2017 at 09:58 AM.
  #88  
Old 12-05-2017, 10:07 AM
Fuji Fuji is online now
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No, I don't. Of course, I got out 12 years ago. The last straw for me was watching the bungled, half-assed governmental response to Hurricane Katrina. I'd have next to zero confidence that the government, state or federal, would respond appropriately to the next widespread upheaval or disaster. You're on your own in America.

The last 13 months have only confirmed for me the rot in the USA. As others have said here, Trump is only the symptom, not the cause, of the disease. I feel bad for my nephews who will have to grow to adulthood in that dysfunctional madhouse.
  #89  
Old 12-05-2017, 10:14 AM
Velocity Velocity is offline
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To answer the OP: No. Just no.
  #90  
Old 12-05-2017, 10:53 AM
JKellyMap JKellyMap is offline
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Originally Posted by Uniqueorn View Post
There seems to be something in many Americans' psyche that values selfishness over altruism, tribalism over internationalism, fear over empathy and belief over rational thinking.

Fun, if you're part of that mindset, unbelievably frustrating if you're not.
Excellent summary of the situation.
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  #91  
Old 12-05-2017, 11:14 AM
Morgenstern Morgenstern is online now
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Heís crazy and ignorant, sure, but you think Trump actually hates the USA?
You are so out of touch with reality.

Trump is neither crazy or ignorant. Trump is a misogynic, narcissistic, lying, toxic substance who is making the world believe that the US is a misogynic, narcissistic, lying, toxic waste dump of incompetent bigoted pricks.

We have a lot of letters of apology to send to the world when that asshole has a heart attack on the 8th hole of the golf course he's probably building on all that land he released in Utah.
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  #92  
Old 12-05-2017, 11:30 AM
shunpiker shunpiker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uniqueorn View Post
There seems to be something in many Americans' psyche that values selfishness over altruism, tribalism over internationalism, fear over empathy and belief over rational thinking.

Fun, if you're part of that mindset, unbelievably frustrating if you're not.
QFT. And I'll add a cliche, but what we need now is love, sweet love. We'll ALL be better off with a little compassion. There is negligible value in a "fuck them" attitude, no matter who the them is.

To answer the OP, I was ok until the tax decision this weekend (while we slept). Combine this with the Citizens United decision from a few years ago, and this re-enforces my fear that corporations and the rich citizens are in control for now.

Overall, I fall asleep dreaming that this will only make America stronger. I may not live to see it, but I'm hopeful.

Last edited by shunpiker; 12-05-2017 at 11:31 AM.
  #93  
Old 12-05-2017, 11:44 AM
Thudlow Boink Thudlow Boink is online now
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Originally Posted by Uniqueorn View Post
There seems to be something in many Americans' psyche that values selfishness over altruism, tribalism over internationalism, fear over empathy and belief over rational thinking.
Right, and that something is Human Nature. It's not unique to Americans nor to the present day.

Which, I think, is grounds for both pessimism and optimism.
  #94  
Old 12-05-2017, 12:10 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by shunpiker View Post
QFT. And I'll add a cliche, but what we need now is love, sweet love. We'll ALL be better off with a little compassion. There is negligible value in a "fuck them" attitude, no matter who the them is.
The worst part is that it is not us vs them, it is really us vs us. They can't throw a punch without breaking their own nose. Hurts me too, but we are one and the same, so anything that hurts me hurts them too.
  #95  
Old 12-05-2017, 12:31 PM
WOOKINPANUB WOOKINPANUB is offline
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I'm not so much worried as embarrassed and full of contempt.
  #96  
Old 12-05-2017, 01:00 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Not until the white baby boomers die off.

Obviously not all of them are bad (lots of white baby boomers are good people), but most brainwashed, pathologically selfish right wingers are white people over age 50.

So do I have hope? Yes, but not until the 2030s or so. By then many of the angry, brainwashed white nationalist voters will be dead and replaced by millennials and minorities. My hope is that from the 2018-2030 period the dems can win one house of congress or the presidency long enough to stop the GOP from doing too much damage. The GOP having both houses of congress and the presidency is a pretty big problem that has to be blocked.

Not all, but enough to move the overton window.

But I could be wrong. America is getting more and more insane with time, not less.
I'm a white baby boomer, but I have to admit, far too many of them disgust me at this point.
  #97  
Old 12-05-2017, 01:06 PM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
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No, I don't. Of course, I got out 12 years ago. The last straw for me was watching the bungled, half-assed governmental response to Hurricane Katrina. I'd have next to zero confidence that the government, state or federal, would respond appropriately to the next widespread upheaval or disaster. You're on your own in America.

The last 13 months have only confirmed for me the rot in the USA. As others have said here, Trump is only the symptom, not the cause, of the disease. I feel bad for my nephews who will have to grow to adulthood in that dysfunctional madhouse.
Where'd you end up going?
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  #98  
Old 12-05-2017, 01:18 PM
DesertDog DesertDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
There is no telling what will happen long term. But I'm assuming as the most radicalized, arrogant, misinformed, protofascist voters die off and are replaced, the US's politics will become more sane and responsible.

I hope.

As an example, take Roy Moore.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...nate-race.html



Women under 45 prefer Jones over Moore by 49 points, women over 45 prefer Jones by 11 points. Hopefully there is a generational shift and the pro-Trump, pro-Moore aspects of the GOP die of old age before they can do too much damage to America.
Have you looked at your typical Trump rally? (Image picked at random) Most are looking under forty; gonna be a while for them to die off.
  #99  
Old 12-05-2017, 01:26 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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No, I don't. Of course, I got out 12 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandMcnally View Post
Where'd you end up going?
Just have to say, the username and question combos here kinda cracked me up.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 12-05-2017 at 01:27 PM.
  #100  
Old 12-05-2017, 01:31 PM
octopus octopus is offline
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Yes, I realize that. Do you? That's the question. Do you and other conservatives realize that?
You realize that conservative, liberal etc. are poorly defined and encompass many people with conflicting views? But to answer your question, Iíd reckon most self identified conservatives are pro capitalist and pro trade.
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