This ages-old debate needs to be resolved here at SD–today
Among Western orchestral instruments, some experts contend the most difficult to master is the piano, whereas others claim the viola, the French horn, or the oboe/English horn.
Do you know of any “research” done to answer this question, without falling into the abyss of IMHO?
An earlier thread on this subject:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=24143
Well, the oboe is SO difficult to play well that no human being has done so yet.
In my high school orchestra, the conductor assured us that the oboe was the toughest. Anechdotal, I know. But it was obvious to all of us in the orchestra that this was correct.
So, Uke, you’re saying it’s an ill wind that nobody blows good?
Its the piano.
The piano is the only instrument in the world that can play two different chords silmultaneously.
I learnt it as a kid, it requires hours and hours of practice just to understand the basics.
The Advanced Classes are a whole different ball game. Some examples of things you need to be able to do in order to pass your advanced grades:
[ul]
[li]You turn your back on the piano - your teacher plays a chord of, maybe, three notes - you have to pick out, just from hearing that chord once, what the middle note was eg with C, E and G, you’d have to recognize the E in the middle.[/li]
[li]Your teacher hits a single key on the piano - you have to sing that note precisely.[/li]
[li]Your teacher plays a progression of notes eg D, D#, E, F, F#, G - you have to sing the next note, perfectly (in this case a G#).[/li]
[li]You, obviously, also need to be able to play whole Chopin or Bach pieces perfectly.[/li][/ul]
Having said the above, its also the best instrument (IMO).
Well, seeing as how I’ve played piano for over 30 years, I don’t see how anyone could consider it the hardest instrument to play. I can play just about any string and most percussion instruments. I sang opera in high school for ghod’s sake! Piano is just not that difficlut of an instrument. Now when it comes to **any[/n] wind instrument, including the damn harmonica (sigh), I’m lost. My daughter can play clarinet and saxophone as well as a couple of other woodwinds, BUT, she absolutely refuses to learn the oboe. My father played clarinet for over 50 years semi-professionally and also refused to attempt the oboe. From what I understand, which admittedly, is not that much, going from a single reed to a double reed is tremendously difficuly. Plus the fact that the fingerings are totally different than any other wind instrument.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Xploder
And I once again prove that I should always preview dammit!
Yes the piano is not hard to play when you know how but the OP was “which is the hardest to master?”. I took this to mean which is the hardest to learn not which is the hardest to play once you have learnt it.
You are obviously very comfortable with it xploder since you have years of experience but if you had no musical expertise, if you were starting from scratch and learning a new instrument then Id say the piano is the hardest in terms of getting from the stage of “having no knowledge at all” to the stage of “mastery”.
I didn’t mean it was easy once you LEARNED it, I meant it was fairly easy to learn in the first place compared to an oboe. The fact that both hands are doing different things means nothing as even with guitar (if you finger pick), bith hands do different things as well as most percussion and quite a few wind instruments. Conmsidering that a piano is totally linear, i.e., the keys go from a through g with appropriate accidentals and then repeat would seem to me to be the easiest thing to learn. Note, all three of my kids were able to plunk out tunes on my piano within days of being taught the rudiments of the keyboard such as “this is middle C, and these are sharps and flats” whereas NONE of them have yet been able to play diddly on the guitar even with a LOT more instruction. While one daughter does play clarinet very proficiently and piano somewhat, she can’t seem to get it into her head that guitar is almost the same as piano with the exception of having one hand (the left) upside down and reversed (sort of). YMMV of course.
Xploder
I really need to preview…
As far as mastering an instrument, I can’t think of ANYONE who has completely mastered any instrument. While there are a huge number of extremely talented musicians both livinf and dead, I can’t think of anyone off hand who has completely mastered anything. Of course, I quibbling with what you said but the whole idea of ‘mastering’ any instrument sort of strikes me as preposterous. Was Frank Zappa a 'master guitarist? It depends on what you consider a master. I know that I’ve rarely heard anyone play anything anywhere near as fast as some of his orchestral pieces and still be able to hear discernable notes.
Okay…I’m jumping down off my box now…sorry if I seem to be argumentative…
Xploder
One small nitpick - the piano is not the only instrument that can play two chords simultaniously. Even assuming they’re triads and six different notes, a guitar can handle the load with some creative fingering/retuning. A harp or any other instrument with at least six differently tuned strings can do the same job. Harp guitars, anyone?
Yes, it can’t play two completely different five-note chords at the same time, but that’s going to sound like mush anyway.
Actually, come to think of it, a cleverly tuned 12-string guitar could play the entire scale on open strings… dammit, I wish I still had mine so I could try it.
xploder - kids can learn very basic tunes very quickly (twinkle, twinkle little star etc) but to learn the basics you need to be able to play scales using fingering etc, and you need to learn to play different notes with different hands.
With guitar, the left hand doesn’t actually play a note as such - it determines which string is to be plucked by the right hand. It takes two fingers to play a note (unless you’re playing an open string).
With piano, each finger on each hand can play a completely separate note.
With piano, any two fingers can be playing two different notes. This can’t happen on guitar because you need one finger to hold the string and one finger (from the other hand) to actually pluck the string.
Therefore there are more possible combinations on the piano than there are on the guitar.
Therefore the piano is harder.
I agree with you about the “mastery” issue.
barton - how can a guitar play two different chords at once? The fingers of your left hand can only be in one place at one instant in time.
With piano both hands can play two different chords at the same instant. You can’t do this with guitar.
I take your point about the harp but the harp is basically the same as the piano. Its just that instead of hitting keys you’re plucking the strings themselves instead.
The harp and the piano are really the same instrument although they sound quite different of course.
(and I love the harp sound)
No, the piano is the only instrument on which you can play two true chords. The only other instrument where your two hands are doing two different things is the drums. But you can’t play chords on drums.
…on the other hand, oboe MAINTENANCE is extremely easy.
Simply rub with lighter fluid, and ignite.
so, what’s the diff between single and double reeds (I know, I know - one has one, the other has two…)
I mean, why do people say the double reed is so much harder? (I’m dabbling with bagpipes, which use double reeds, and have no experience with single reeds.)
Pianist here chiming in -
xanakis - Unless you and I have two different definitions of chords, the piano is NOT the only instrument where you can play two true chords. Besides, if you can refer to a tonic, any two chords played together can be thought of as a single extended chord. Say I’m in C. My left hand plays a C major, my right plays a B flat major, which is, in this context a C11. If I play an E flat over it, I get a C7(#9) What’s your definition of a “true” chord?
As far as I know, a chord consists of any three different notes playing together. A guitar has six-strings, thus making two chords together possible, although usually they will be thought in the context of a single extented chord.
Here are your strings:
E A D G B E
Hold the third-fret on the low E, and the first fret on the low-A and you get:
G Bb D G B E
You can look at this as an Em chord over a Gm chord. Two different chords. Two true chords. More likely, you will analyze this as an extended G minor, G major, E minor or whatever, depending on the context. But the point is, you can play two different chords at the same time on a guitar, though your possibilities will be limited due to tuning.
Your hands do not have to be in two places at once to hit two chords. You can hit a chord on guitar without even having the left hand fretting.
Anyhow, you are also forgetting other issues with piano, which make it easier in certain ways, since it is a fixed-pitch instrument.
Remember, with violin, you only have four strings. Guess what? There are not frets, and you have to be spot on in teaching your fingers where the notes are. There is no F# key on the violin. You’ve got to find it. Then there is the issue of articulation. You now are open to a vast world of tonal embellishment. You have vibratos…you can make them slow or vast. You can speed them up or slow them down. You have a lot to practice on just getting your vibratos even. Then you can also glide up to notes or glide down. You have pizzicato; on the guitar you have bends, natural and artifial harmonics, a whammy bar occassionally.
With wind instruments you have most of these options plus you have to develop your embouchure (mouth shape.) From what I hear, this is a real pain in the butt.
So, speaking as a pianist, I would hesitate to judge an instrument’s difficulty by the amount of notes that can be played at any one time. To compensate, we don’t have to think about A LOT of tonal issues other instruments do.
This strikes me as IMHO territory - there are too many variables:
Which is hardest to get a sound out of/begin with - sounds like oboe is pretty hard, but piano is comparatively easy in this regard
Hardest to master - complete IMHO territory. Obviously, solo instruments place demands on the artist that non-solo instruments can’t approach, regardless of how difficult the instrument itself it (e.g., a violin solo calls for completely different skills to master in front of an audience as opposed to a french horn - which apparently is difficult to play, but rarely solos…).
This also depends on what’s being played. As a guitarist, I have always respected the Jeff Beck’s of the world who can say it all with one note, instead of the wanna-be Paganinni’s out there who try to play thousands of notes per second. Which technique is harder to master - the demands of super-fast playing or playing one note with soul?
So while there are obviously aspects of this question which are answer-able, overall the scope needs to be narrowed, IMHO, to really try to answer it…
xanakis, note that your first three items have nothing to do with piano, they have to do with recognizing notes/intervals/chords/scales by ear. An advanced guitarist should be able to do the exact same things. I would imagine singers, and just about any “master level” player (whatever that actually means) should be able to do the same.
Just to throw in something else about chords on guitar…
Check out Stanley Jordan who plays chords, lead AND bass regularly at the same time with BOTH hands. He literally taps out what he wants to play with all ten fingers. Nor is he the only one to do so. Mike Keneally and Steve Vai also do the same on occasion.
Also, take a look at an instrument called a Chapman Stick. This thing has ten strings. Four bass and six lead all on one neck. You play it by tapping. Even though I’ve been playing piano and guitar for years and years, a Stick is damn difficult to play anything on.
Okay, I’ll stop now…
Xploder
Billy Sheehan, Stu Hamm, Michael Hedges also do that multiple harmonies melody kind of stuff.
Piano has 88 string-groups, you can play up to 10 notes at once, one per “input” finger. Standard guitar has 6-strings, so you can play 6 notes. 12-strings have 12, then there’s harps and such… you are still limited by the 10 “inputs” of your fingers.
They are all equivalent devices in the sense that they set a certain number of strings vibrating, where that number maxes out at the number of fingers you have.
(Bugs Bunny cartoons and prehensile ears notwithstanding.)
Does anyone ever actually play 10 notes on a piano at once?