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Old 11-15-2019, 02:37 PM
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Misogyny, victim-blaming, and the board culture (yet again)


I think the board has made positive progress over the last few years with regards to being a welcoming place for women and survivors of rape and sexual assault. Misogynistic comments are generally moderated when outside of the Pit, especially when they're brought up out of the blue in a thread having nothing to do with women's rights or allegations of sexual assault and rape. I thank the mods for their progress on this, and I thank many, many Dopers for speaking up about this to try and make the board a better place.

With this in mind, and because this is about the most important issue in the world to me (i.e. making our society better WRT sexual assault and rape), I reported a comment that, out of the blue, and in a thread that had nothing to do with any allegations of sexual assault or rape, denigrated and blamed a woman for purposefully instigating death threats because she spoke out publicly about her experiences with a prominent political appointee.

If we want this board to be a welcoming place for women and girls, and especially for survivors of rape and sexual assault, then blaming and denigrating women (much less assigning blame for purposefully instigating death threats) for nothing more than talking about their experiences should be verboten in GD/Elections, at least when it's not a thread specifically about evaluating such allegations. In fact, I was pretty sure that this was made clear as part of the rules before, in the other discussions that we've had on this topic relating to the board culture -- that misogynistic or victim-blaming comments, especially when in unrelated threads outside of the Pit, would be moddable, with warnings or more. This particular comment was an out-of-the-blue victim-blaming -- a snippet of the kind of language that, when widely accepted, enables rape and sexual assault, in a thread having nothing to do with the topic of allegations of rape or sexual assault. Just an utterly irrelevant misogynistic and victim-blaming post with no value to the discussion.

If my memory is right, I've received mod notes for bringing up Trump's sexual abuse in threads that weren't specifically about this. Those were probably reasonable notes -- it's certainly one of the issues that I feel most strongly about, and my feelings probably bled into some unrelated threads. But this is much, much worse, IMO -- the poster didn't criticize an admitted sexual abuser in some unrelated thread like I probably did (and was reasonably instructed to stop), he denigrated and blamed an alleged survivor, for purposefully instigating death threats, for nothing more than speaking out, in a totally unrelated thread.

I PM'd a mod about this particular issue, and the mod didn't believe that the comment was misogynistic and thus not moddable. I very strongly disagree with this characterization -- how is assigning the blame for purposefully instigating death threats to a woman for simply speaking about her experiences not inherently misogynistic? It's hard to think of a more clearly misogynistic comment, when it comes to characterizing someone who makes an allegation of sexual assault, IMO.

Am I wrong about the rules -- is misogyny less harshly sanctioned than I had presumed? Or am I just wrong about this specific post -- that it's not misogynistic to blame an alleged survivor for purposefully instigating death threats for speaking about her experiences?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-15-2019 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 11-15-2019, 02:38 PM
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PLEASE say this is not about HD again????
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Old 11-15-2019, 02:50 PM
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PLEASE say this is not about HD again????
...is exactly what women, rape survivors, and people with an ounce of class say every time they see him post.
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Old 11-15-2019, 03:03 PM
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PLEASE say this is not about HD again????
Of course it is. I'll reproduce the entire exchange here so that people have it at in front of them when deciding how "denigrating" towards women they think my comment was:

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Originally Posted by steronz View Post
Exposing someone to death threats because you think it might help your side in a political squabble is a pretty shitty thing to do. Can we agree on that?
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Probably not. Dr. Blasey Ford and her allies exposed Justice Kavanaugh's family to death threats because they thought it might help their side in a political squabble. I don't recall many Democrats saying that was "a pretty shitty thing to do", so the complaint now rings hollow to me. Sorry.
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
You're seriously putting Kavanaugh in the shoes of being a whisteblower? Man, have you got that backwards.

ETA: Plus, accusing Ford herself of responsibility for making death threats -- what the fucking fuck news are you reading....
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Nope, I'm putting him (and his family) in the shoes of people who were exposed to death threats because dems thought it might help their side in a political squabble.
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Sickening, but still not surprising, unfortunately, to see HurricaneDitka denigrate a woman who did nothing more than publicly talk about her experiences as a young girl.
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I don't believe I'm "denigrating" her. I'm simply pointing out that her accusation, which was the central focus of a political squabble, exposed a family to death threats. FWIW, she received death threats too, and I don't think those were deserved either.
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Yeah, that isn't what happened, but see my comment about questioning your source of news if this is what you take away from the controversy.




But you don't care, because Kavanaugh....?
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Originally Posted by Akaj View Post
Apples and roller coasters. Kavanaugh was already in the public eye as a SCOTUS nominee. Not that death threats are in any way acceptable, but when you accept a SCOTUS nomination you also accept the visibility.

The WB never volunteered to be a public figure, and making them* into one -- when Trump has already suggested they be executed as a spy -- puts their life in jeopardy.

(*No idea of the WB's gender, and too lazy to rework sentence for proper neutrality.)
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A friend of mine saw Kavanaugh at the World Series. He had a large security detail to look after him and his family. Wonder if the U.S. Marshals are looking after Dr. Ford, or this whistleblower?
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
You blamed her for death threats for nothing more than talking about her own experiences. That's misogynistic, rape-enabling, denigrating bullshit.
I, obviously, disagree with iiandyiii's characterization of my post.
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Old 11-15-2019, 03:05 PM
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what the fuck dude
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Old 11-15-2019, 03:08 PM
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I don't agree that it's misogynistic, rape-enabling, denigrating bullshit. However, it was a pretty shitty thing to say.
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Old 11-15-2019, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Of course it is. I'll reproduce the entire exchange here so that people have it at in front of them when deciding how "denigrating" towards women they think my comment was:





















I, obviously, disagree with iiandyiii's characterization of my post.
Ive decided. It's "extremely fucking" denigrating. And you, yet again, exposing yourself for what you are.
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Old 11-15-2019, 03:25 PM
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Sorry, iiandyiiii. I just don't see mysogyny or victim-blaming in the linked post or context it was made in.

It was a fallacious argument on HurricaneDitka's part, specifically tu quoque. But we can't sanction members for merely advancing fallacious arguments, or how would we ever fight ignorance?

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Old 11-15-2019, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Am I wrong about the rules -- is misogyny less harshly sanctioned than I had presumed? Or am I just wrong about this specific post -- that it's not misogynistic to blame an alleged survivor for purposefully instigating death threats for speaking about her experiences?
I think you're wrong about that specific post. I'm excerpting some things I sent via PM:

The statement HD was responding to was, "Exposing someone to death threats because you think it might help your side in a political squabble is a pretty shitty thing to do. Can we agree on that?"

That question opens up the line of discussion about any action that exposed someone to death threats because of political matters. It wasn't about Ford or Kavanaugh specifically, but if any received death threats then it would be relevant. So the construction of the questions to determine relevance is, were there death threats? Then if so, were they the result of political activities?

This doesn't speak to the validity of Ford's position or Kavanaugh's. For me, I think bringing up Ford and Kavanaugh in that context is a colossally bad argument. There are so many dissimilarities that it's a very poor example. But bad arguments are not moddable.

I disagree with your assessment that it is misogynistic. Disagreeing with Ford, supporting Kavanaugh, seeing the confirmation process as a purely political one, etc. is not misogynistic. The post was in direct response to a question, could both sides agree that a certain action is bad. A response in the vein of bothsiderism is directly on point, hardly trolling.

I think HD's introduction of Ford and Kavanaugh was primarily super weak, irrelevant, and not conducive to discussion. But if people are engaging him, and he responds on point, that's not moddable. There are several posters whose contributions I find are generally pretty terrible and add no value. That doesn't make it moddable, it just means I don't engage with them. We don't tend to mod the quality of arguments.
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Old 11-15-2019, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone View Post
I think you're wrong about that specific post. I'm excerpting some things I sent via PM:



The statement HD was responding to was, "Exposing someone to death threats because you think it might help your side in a political squabble is a pretty shitty thing to do. Can we agree on that?"



That question opens up the line of discussion about any action that exposed someone to death threats because of political matters. It wasn't about Ford or Kavanaugh specifically, but if any received death threats then it would be relevant. So the construction of the questions to determine relevance is, were there death threats? Then if so, were they the result of political activities?



This doesn't speak to the validity of Ford's position or Kavanaugh's. For me, I think bringing up Ford and Kavanaugh in that context is a colossally bad argument. There are so many dissimilarities that it's a very poor example. But bad arguments are not moddable.



I disagree with your assessment that it is misogynistic. Disagreeing with Ford, supporting Kavanaugh, seeing the confirmation process as a purely political one, etc. is not misogynistic. The post was in direct response to a question, could both sides agree that a certain action is bad. A response in the vein of bothsiderism is directly on point, hardly trolling.



I think HD's introduction of Ford and Kavanaugh was primarily super weak, irrelevant, and not conducive to discussion. But if people are engaging him, and he responds on point, that's not moddable. There are several posters whose contributions I find are generally pretty terrible and add no value. That doesn't make it moddable, it just means I don't engage with them. We don't tend to mod the quality of arguments.
I agree that disagreeing with Ford or supporting Kavanaugh are not inherently misogynistic. But that's not what I object to. What I'm characterizing as misogynistic is the direct and purposeful blame that post assigned to Ford for instigating death threats. Do you disagree that asserting that Ford purposefully instigated death threats by speaking out about her experiences is misogynistic?
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Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-15-2019 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 11-15-2019, 03:47 PM
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Max, can you explain how blaming the victim of a sexual assault for death threats received by the perpetrator does not meet your definition of "victim blaming"?
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Old 11-15-2019, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Bone View Post
I disagree with your assessment that it is misogynistic. Disagreeing with Ford, supporting Kavanaugh, seeing the confirmation process as a purely political one, etc. is not misogynistic.
What you say above is true. However, HD was not merely disagreeing with Ford. He stated that the reason Ford raised the issue of her assault was "because they thought it might help their side in a political squabble." This is extremely dismissive of sexual assault, and I have trouble undestanding how you could not see any misogyny in it.
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Old 11-15-2019, 03:58 PM
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I think you read this sentence as showing victim-blaming:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka
Dr. Blasey Ford and her allies exposed Justice Kavanaugh's family to death threats because they thought it might help their side in a political squabble.
I have to guess that you think saying "Dr. Blasey Ford and her allies exposed Justice Kavanaugh's family to death threats" constitutes victim-blaming. In your own words, you characterize that as "assigning the blame for purposefully instigating death threats" to Dr. Blasey Ford.

But I think you are jumping the gun here. HurricaneDitka did not actually imply that Dr. Blasey Ford is to blame for purposefully instigated death threats; rather, it is asserted that she and her allies are to blame for exposing Justice Kavanaugh's family to those threats. Certainly Dr. Blasey Ford did not send death threats Justice Kavanaugh's family, and neither is it implied that her motivation for coming forward was to expose Justice Kavanaugh's family to death threats. There is simply a cause and effect here, had Dr. Blasey Ford kept her mouth shut, Justice Kavanaugh's family would not be exposed to death threats because of Dr. Blasey Ford's actions.

Obviously if HurricaneDitka had argued that Dr. Blasey Ford should have kept her mouth shut, or that the purpose of her allegations against Kavanaugh was to incite death threats, that's a totally different situation. But neither of those are implied and the resulting tu quoque argument does not require such a judgement to be made, only the cause and effect. The cause was Dr. Blasey Ford's allegations, the effect was exposing Kavanaugh's family to death threats.

A separate but related issue is where HurricaneDitka writes "...because they thought it might help their side in a political squabble". Perhaps you think the word "they" includes Dr. Blasey Ford, and that "because" means "primarily because". If that were true, it would appear that HurricaneDitka accuses Dr. Blasey Ford of alleging rape in bad faith: not because she was actually raped and wants justice, but because she wants to win a "political squabble". I'm not sure if I would call that misogyny or victim-blaming ("denigrating" is appropriate), but it's pretty low.

I believe this is just an accident of composition. Based on surrounding context and later posts in the thread, I think HurricaneDitka meant the Democrats when writing "they". If I recall correctly, Dr. Blasey Ford didn't even make the accusations in public, and didn't want to put herself out there for public ridicule. The accusations were leaked against her will, and surely HurricaneDitka knows that.

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Old 11-15-2019, 04:04 PM
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Looks like some people use the report feature simply because they disagree with a poster, and then, what's that saying? "throw everything against the wall and see what sticks"?
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TheCuse View Post
Looks like some people use the report feature simply because they disagree with a poster, and then, what's that saying? "throw everything against the wall and see what sticks"?
I have no doubt iiandyiiii sincerely believes the post showed misogynistic victim-blaming. It is good that he reported based on that belief, good that he asked the mods what they thought about it, and even good that he made a thread where we can discuss it.

I just think he is wrong.

~Max
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:14 PM
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All posters can have bias, including against other posters, and I am not exempt from that -- I have made it very clear (in the appropriate forum!) that I have very negative feelings for a very small number of posters, including the one that made the post in question. And I don't think it's possible to be certain that I'm entirely avoiding bias and making an argument that's purely based on facts and objective analysis, rather than being influenced by my own feelings about the poster. So that's why I reached out to a mod. I found the mod's argument unconvincing (specifically because it hasn't addressed the real reason I object to the post), and so I started an ATMB thread, to see if others feel similarly or feel that I'm wrong.

Thanks for the responses so far. Especially from Max S., who is the only one so far who disagrees with me who actually attempted to address what I've pointed to as objectionable. I think the structure of the sentence clearly ties Ford to the blame for deliberately causing death threats (and doesn't need a "primarily" to mean this). And apparently we have a disagreement on what qualifies as "misogynistic" and "victim-blaming" (you characterize it as "pretty low"). But I appreciate that good faith effort at trying to break down the argument.

I appreciate Bone's serious response as well, but he doesn't seem to address what I'm focusing on -- the assignment of blame for death threats on Ford, and that this was purposeful (for the "political squabble"). So I'm hopeful that Bone will take another look at the post I'm objecting to and how I'm characterizing it -- once again, it's not about disagreeing with Ford and supporting Kavanaugh, it's about the specific language used to characterize and blame Ford for speaking out.

I don't make a habit of starting ATMB threads about specific posts, and I've done so here because of how important the issue is to me (and how important this board's culture is to me).

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-15-2019 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:14 PM
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Could be, Max S. But he seems to hated/despise HD so who knows? Mods in other threads have talked about folks simply using the report button because they disagree with someone.

I personally hate "report" buttons as they can be abused.

Last edited by TheCuse; 11-15-2019 at 04:15 PM. Reason: Used ^^^ but another post appeared above
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Max S. View Post
...There is simply a cause and effect here, had Dr. Blasey Ford kept her mouth shut, Justice Kavanaugh's family would not be exposed to death threats because of Dr. Blasey Ford's actions.

Obviously if HurricaneDitka had argued that Dr. Blasey Ford should have kept her mouth shut, or that the purpose of her allegations against Kavanaugh was to incite death threats, that's a totally different situation. But neither of those are implied and the resulting tu quoque argument does not require such a judgement to be made, only the cause and effect. The cause was Dr. Blasey Ford's allegations, the effect was exposing Kavanaugh's family to death threats.
I don't think you understand what "victim blaming" means in the context of sexual harassment. "She wouldn't have been raped if she didn't walk down that alley" could be classified as "simple cause and effect" with no judgement to be made. But I hope that you would have no trouble seeing that as victim blaming.

Quote:
A separate but related issue is where HurricaneDitka writes "...because they thought it might help their side in a political squabble". Perhaps you think the word "they" includes Dr. Blasey Ford, and that "because" means "primarily because". If that were true, it would appear that HurricaneDitka accuses Dr. Blasey Ford of alleging rape in bad faith: not because she was actually raped and wants justice, but because she wants to win a "political squabble". I'm not sure if I would call that misogyny or victim-blaming ("denigrating" is appropriate), but it's pretty low.

I believe this is just an accident of composition.
Given zero context, I could possibly agree. But HD has been modded for multiple misogynistic comments. This is the poster who, in the very first response to an ATMB thread about misogyny and objectification of women, thought it would be funny to use "abreast" in his post. He starts to lose the benefit of the doubt when he is so often in the position of arguing that his comment was perfectly innocent, it was just an accident of composition.
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Max S. View Post
I have no doubt iiandyiiii sincerely believes the post showed misogynistic victim-blaming. It is good that he reported based on that belief, good that he asked the mods what they thought about it, and even good that he made a thread where we can discuss it.

I just think he is wrong.

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Old 11-15-2019, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I agree that disagreeing with Ford or supporting Kavanaugh are not inherently misogynistic. But that's not what I object to. What I'm characterizing as misogynistic is the direct and purposeful blame that post assigned to Ford for instigating death threats. Do you disagree that asserting that Ford purposefully instigated death threats by speaking out about her experiences is misogynistic?
I don't agree with your interpretation that Ford is being blamed for instigating death threats. Ford took action which lead to a chain of events, one of those included death threats. That's not blaming Ford for those threats.

I get the impression that you view things that are critical of people who happen to be women to be misogynistic more than I do. Even if you have characterized the sentiment correctly which I don't think you have, I think character assassination politics is a more likely basis than misogyny.
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:35 PM
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I read that as more of a tu quoque than victim blaming. I thought the point he was (badly) trying to make was, if Breitbart is responsible for other people sending death threats to the guy they've named as the whistleblower, despite not sending threats themselves or actively encouraging other people to send threats*, then shouldn't Ford/congressional democrats also be responsible for the threats sent to Kavanaugh, even though neither Ford nor the democrats sent threats themselves or actively encouraged anyone to send threats? With the implied conclusion that neither party is actually responsible for third parties sending death threats.

*I'm assuming - I haven't actually read the Breitbart report in question
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:40 PM
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I don't agree with your interpretation that Ford is being blamed for instigating death threats. Ford took action which lead to a chain of events, one of those included death threats. That's not blaming Ford for those threats.
I'm reading the post in question as "[Dr. Ford and her allies] exposed Justice Kavanaugh's family to death threats because they thought it might help their side in a political squabble". That looks like directly blaming her (and her allies) for the threats -- because they thought that instigating these threats would help them in their "political squabble". They did something (i.e. exposing Kavanaugh and family to threats) for a reason (these threats might help their political squabble). I'm having real trouble reading it any other way, given the structure of the sentence.

Quote:
I get the impression that you view things that are critical of people who happen to be women to be misogynistic more than I do. Even if you have characterized the sentiment correctly which I don't think you have, I think character assassination politics is a more likely basis than misogyny.
I think "character assassination politics" can be intrinsically misogynistic if it uses misogynistic tropes or themes (as it did in this instance, IMO). Just like it can be racist if it used racist tropes or themes.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-15-2019 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:46 PM
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Ignore those extra brackets in my first paragraph of the prior post -- I'm not sure why I put those in the quote.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-15-2019 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I'm reading the post in question as "[Dr. Ford and her allies] exposed Justice Kavanaugh's family to death threats because they thought it might help their side in a political squabble". That looks like directly blaming her (and her allies) for the threats -- because they thought that instigating these threats would help them in their "political squabble". They did something (i.e. exposing Kavanaugh and family to threats) for a reason (these threats might help their political squabble). I'm having real trouble reading it any other way, given the structure of the sentence. ...
The "it" in that sentence, the thing the dems thought was going to help them in a political squabble, were Ford's accusations, not the death threats against Mrs. Kavanaugh.

One of the effects / outcomes of Ford's accusations were the death threats against Mrs. Kavanaugh. I'm not suggesting Ford desired that outcome, or "purposefully" instigated it, but it was a result of her accusation.

And my point, however bad some of you think it was, had nothing to do with Ford being a woman. If it was a man that had accused Justice Kavanaugh of sexual assault, and his family had received death threats as a result, I would have made the same point.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 11-15-2019 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:49 PM
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Here is the quote in question:

Quote:
Dr. Blasey Ford and her allies exposed Justice Kavanaugh's family to death threats because they thought it might help their side in a political squabble. I don't recall many Democrats saying that was "a pretty shitty thing to do", so the complaint now rings hollow to me. Sorry.
The only action Dr. Blasey Ford performed was report rape--something she did following the proper channels, and did not even deliberately make public. All her allies did was support that something should be done, and support her once the accusation was made public.

So what HD is arguing is that it's wrong to accuse someone of rape because it might expose their family to death threats. He can't even claim that he's assuming that Ford was lying, because he specifically is talking about the Democratic perspective (which is why I included the second line). Democrats believe she is telling the truth, yet he thinks they should have condemned her.

That appears to me as textbook rape apologia and victim blaming. "How dare you report a rape! Don't you care about the effects on the person you are accusing?" And I note that victim-blaming rape apologia was considered to be misogynist on Starving Artist's part, and resulted in a full on banning.

The problem is not merely that it is bad argument, or that HD appears to side with Kavenaugh. It is that his argument is effectively arguing that rape victims should remain silent.

Last edited by BigT; 11-15-2019 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TroutMan View Post
I don't think you understand what "victim blaming" means in the context of sexual harassment. "She wouldn't have been raped if she didn't walk down that alley" could be classified as "simple cause and effect" with no judgement to be made. But I hope that you would have no trouble seeing that as victim blaming.
I don't think that necessarily constitutes victim-blaming, so you and I disagree on that subject. If it is implied that she should not have walked down the alley, as it would be if that cause and effect argument were raised to defend the perp, then that constitutes victim-blaming. But there is not necessarily an assignment of blame in the moral sense when pointing out cause and effect. Women have - should have - the right to walk down alleyways without being raped.
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Given zero context, I could possibly agree. But HD has been modded for multiple misogynistic comments. This is the poster who, in the very first response to an ATMB thread about misogyny and objectification of women, thought it would be funny to use "abreast" in his post. He starts to lose the benefit of the doubt when he is so often in the position of arguing that his comment was perfectly innocent, it was just an accident of composition.
Perhaps with certain context I would agree, but I have not yet been so disgusted as to remove that benefit of the doubt from HurricaneDitka in general.

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Old 11-15-2019, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
The "it" in that sentence, the thing the dems thought was going to help them in a political squabble, were Ford's accusations, not the death threats against Mrs. Kavanaugh.

One of the effects / outcomes of Ford's accusations were the death threats against Mrs. Kavanaugh. I'm not suggesting Ford desired that outcome, or "purposefully" instigated it, but it was a result of her accusation.
That's not what the sentence structure says to me, but even if it's what you meant, this doesn't remove the misogyny or victim-blaming -- you're saying that Ford spoke out in order to help her "side" in a political squabble. That's just as misogynistic and victim blaming as saying that a college student is speaking out about her rape by the star QB because of spite due to an unrequited crush.
  #28  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:30 PM
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I have to agree with iiandyiiii here, though I think the mods are probably reluctant for various reasons to interfere with anything but bright-line misogyny. But here's my take:

The argument is that by voicing her experience publicly, CBF endangered Kavanaugh. Tying those accusations to politics doesn't change or modify the argument. Here's the test: if somehow HD--or anyone else--were convinced CBF had no political motives whatsoever, would he still claim her public allegations were responsible for the death threats to Kavanaugh? I'm confident he would. But he saw a chance to diss Dems AND a woman alleging sexual assault: double win!

When female* victims do report sexual assault, there are nearly always those who suspect ulterior motives: She's lying because she regrets sex or She's mad he didn't call her and wants revenge. Statistically, there are extremely few false reports, and even fewer that are based on ulterior motives, but it's an effective way of appealing to the misogynistic belief that women are fickle jezebels ruled by petty emotions who can't be trusted. HD's contention was a variation of that.

I understand why mods don't see this as bright-line misogyny, but it's misogyny nonetheless.

That's my take.

*I haven't seen SDMB posts claiming men who publicly allege sexual assault (and there are a few) have ulterior motives. If there are some, please cite. Thanks.
  #29  
Old 11-15-2019, 06:00 PM
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The argument is that by voicing her experience publicly, CBF endangered Kavanaugh.
That's what I was saying before, Dr. Blasey Ford did not publicly voice her experience and was quite reluctant to do so even after her complaints were leaked. Perhaps HurricaneDitka was ignorant or denies that narrative, but if we give him the benefit of the doubt then his post can be much more simply summarized as:

'Democrats can't criticize Republicans for exposing someone to death threats because the Democrats did the same thing to Justice Kavanaugh'

~Max
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Old 11-15-2019, 06:03 PM
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  #31  
Old 11-15-2019, 06:08 PM
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I have to agree with iiandyiiii here, though I think the mods are probably reluctant for various reasons to interfere with anything but bright-line misogyny. But here's my take:

The argument is that by voicing her experience publicly, CBF endangered Kavanaugh. Tying those accusations to politics doesn't change or modify the argument. Here's the test: if somehow HD--or anyone else--were convinced CBF had no political motives whatsoever, would he still claim her public allegations were responsible for the death threats to Kavanaugh? I'm confident he would. But he saw a chance to diss Dems AND a woman alleging sexual assault: double win!

When female* victims do report sexual assault, there are nearly always those who suspect ulterior motives: She's lying because she regrets sex or She's mad he didn't call her and wants revenge. Statistically, there are extremely few false reports, and even fewer that are based on ulterior motives, but it's an effective way of appealing to the misogynistic belief that women are fickle jezebels ruled by petty emotions who can't be trusted. HD's contention was a variation of that.

I understand why mods don't see this as bright-line misogyny, but it's misogyny nonetheless.

That's my take.

*I haven't seen SDMB posts claiming men who publicly allege sexual assault (and there are a few) have ulterior motives. If there are some, please cite. Thanks.
I'm sorry if I double post. The board appeared to eat my first one. Dr. Ford spoke out at great risk to herself and has had a multitude of death threats against her family. She's had to hire personal security she can't afford. Someone saying a rape victim spoke out for some kind of "win" is indeed misogyny, particularly in this case.
  #32  
Old 11-15-2019, 06:20 PM
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Thanks again to everyone who's responded so far. I'd be very interested in hearing from the women among the moderation staff. I hope they'll chime in.
  #33  
Old 11-15-2019, 06:33 PM
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That's what I was saying before, Dr. Blasey Ford did not publicly voice her experience and was quite reluctant to do so even after her complaints were leaked. Perhaps HurricaneDitka was ignorant or denies that narrative, but if we give him the benefit of the doubt then his post can be much more simply summarized as:

'Democrats can't criticize Republicans for exposing someone to death threats because the Democrats did the same thing to Justice Kavanaugh'

~Max
I stand by my conclusion that there was indeed misogyny in HD's responses in that thread. I encourage you to read any of the old threads on Ford-Kavanaugh. I appreciate your spirit of fair-mindedness, but background and context should dispel any doubts you may have.
  #34  
Old 11-15-2019, 06:35 PM
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That's what I was saying before, Dr. Blasey Ford did not publicly voice her experience and was quite reluctant to do so even after her complaints were leaked. Perhaps HurricaneDitka was ignorant or denies that narrative, but if we give him the benefit of the doubt then his post can be much more simply summarized as:

'Democrats can't criticize Republicans for exposing someone to death threats because the Democrats did the same thing to Justice Kavanaugh'

~Max
By pointing out he was a rapist. Saying that ANYTHING -- political factors, "death threats", whatever -- is so important that it should overwrite a woman's right to accuse her rapist is absolutely misogynistic, and exactly what is objectionable with HD's initial post.
  #35  
Old 11-15-2019, 07:06 PM
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I stand by my conclusion that there was indeed misogyny in HD's responses in that thread. I encourage you to read any of the old threads on Ford-Kavanaugh. I appreciate your spirit of fair-mindedness, but background and context should dispel any doubts you may have.
Maybe I will... it takes a great deal of willpower for me to drudge through old elections threads (new ones, even). But I'll consider it.

~Max
  #36  
Old 11-15-2019, 07:09 PM
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By pointing out he was a rapist. Saying that ANYTHING -- political factors, "death threats", whatever -- is so important that it should overwrite a woman's right to accuse her rapist is absolutely misogynistic, and exactly what is objectionable with HD's initial post.
That is an excellent counter to the argument, perhaps minus the accusation of misogyny.

'Democrats can't criticize Republicans for exposing someone to death threats because the Democrats did the same thing to Justice Kavanaugh'

'The Democrats were justified in exposing Justice Kavanaugh but the Republicans aren't justified in exposing the whistleblower'

Even the tu quoque is flawed.

~Max
  #37  
Old 11-15-2019, 07:19 PM
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Thanks again to everyone who's responded so far. I'd be very interested in hearing from the women among the moderation staff. I hope they'll chime in.
It's been brought to my attention that this may come across as a shot against the moderation staff -- it's not meant that way. I thought I recalled at least two women moderators, and I suppose they retired. I'd still like to hear from the remaining women (woman?) among the staff, and I hope they/she will chime in.
  #38  
Old 11-15-2019, 07:37 PM
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One of the effects / outcomes of Ford's accusations were the death threats against Mrs. Kavanaugh. I'm not suggesting Ford desired that outcome, or "purposefully" instigated it, but it was a result of her accusation.
I find it highly, highly unlikely that you can point to any death threat against Kavanaugh that's demonstrably a result of Ford's testimony, rather than the fact that he's a divisive public figure and moreover kind of a gammon-faced choad who yells at legislators while crying about beer.
  #39  
Old 11-15-2019, 07:55 PM
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Oh boy, a bunch of men explaining to each other what's misogyny and what isn't. So precious, so rare, so welcome in a world that just doesn't have enough of it. Hooray.
  #40  
Old 11-15-2019, 08:03 PM
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Oh boy, a bunch of men explaining to each other what's misogyny and what isn't. So precious, so rare, so welcome in a world that just doesn't have enough of it. Hooray.
Wine Mom has entered the chat
  #41  
Old 11-15-2019, 08:11 PM
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Oh boy, a bunch of men explaining to each other what's misogyny and what isn't. So precious, so rare, so welcome in a world that just doesn't have enough of it. Hooray.
What do you recommend I do?

ETA: Start a thread called what is misogyny? I already have a thread about sexual objectification but as far as I can tell all of the responses are from men.

~Max

Last edited by Max S.; 11-15-2019 at 08:11 PM.
  #42  
Old 11-15-2019, 08:13 PM
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Wine Mom has entered the chat
I wonder why so women post here, nowadays?
  #43  
Old 11-15-2019, 10:04 PM
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I wonder why so women post here, nowadays?
Yes, why not spend more time in a place where a mod can twist reality in order to excuse posts so creepy they make your skin crawl from a poster who insists that any criticism can't be of the posts but must be personal animosity?

How many more times, Bone? How many more times?
  #44  
Old 11-15-2019, 10:57 PM
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Yes, why not spend more time in a place where a mod can twist reality in order to excuse posts so creepy they make your skin crawl from a poster who insists that any criticism can't be of the posts but must be personal animosity?

How many more times, Bone? How many more times?
I have no idea what you're going on about.
  #45  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:02 AM
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Yes, why not spend more time in a place where a mod can twist reality in order to excuse posts so creepy they make your skin crawl from a poster who insists that any criticism can't be of the posts but must be personal animosity?

How many more times, Bone? How many more times?
Link?
  #46  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:08 AM
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Oh boy, a bunch of men explaining to each other what's misogyny and what isn't. So precious, so rare, so welcome in a world that just doesn't have enough of it. Hooray.
Would you rather these men *not* discuss the issue? The thread was not started for or limited to exclusive participation of men. I've already seen a few female posters make a handful of posts in this thread and there are simply more male posters here than female. Your obvious disdain for this conversation on its face seems misplaced.
  #47  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:08 AM
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I have no idea what you're going on about.
Posts #9 and #20.

They are so far removed from the reality that most posters in this thread see that we can only wonder how it is possible to view such distant dimensions. But they are consistent with the many other times you have insisted here in ATMB that the reality we are taking umbrage against simply doesn't exist.

The result is yet another uprising concerning the same issues from the same posters. Isn't it far past time to consider the possibility that our vision has some validity?
  #48  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:54 AM
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Posts #9 and #20.

They are so far removed from the reality that most posters in this thread see that we can only wonder how it is possible to view such distant dimensions. But they are consistent with the many other times you have insisted here in ATMB that the reality we are taking umbrage against simply doesn't exist.

The result is yet another uprising concerning the same issues from the same posters. Isn't it far past time to consider the possibility that our vision has some validity?
Oh I don't deny that you and others may believe a certain thing. I simply don't share your beliefs. iiandyiiii asked a question, both via PM and in this thread. I responded, though it seems you don't like the response. Of course, there's no actual reason given by you so I can't address specifics. But yeah sure, every time you disagree with something, you're welcome to comfort yourself with the knowing assuredness that your truth is the truth and ask, how many more times?!?
  #49  
Old 11-16-2019, 03:37 AM
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By pointing out he was a rapist. Saying that ANYTHING -- political factors, "death threats", whatever -- is so important that it should overwrite a woman's right to accuse her rapist is absolutely misogynistic, and exactly what is objectionable with HD's initial post.
I agree with this post.
  #50  
Old 11-16-2019, 05:20 AM
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I'd still like to hear from the remaining women (woman?) among the staff, and I hope they/she will chime in.
I read it just like you do, iiandyiiii. And I'm not surprised that the mod staff doesn't.

I'm not on staff, of course, and what I think doesn't matter.

Last edited by Merneith; 11-16-2019 at 05:25 AM. Reason: It's not a problem confined to just one party.
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