Why are t-shirts about god allowed in school?

[ozonebaby]

One thing about school I hate is that no one is allowed to wear anything with words one it that might be offensive. Well, no one can where shirts with anything from anything like the Simpsons (which, I think is quite dumb,not that I would wear one)but they are allowed to wear shirts that have stuff about god on them. Like, I saw one that implied I was evil and would go to hell if I didn't believe in god. Isn't that offensive?! Why is that allowed but nothing else (less offensive stuff)?!

[lawoot]

Just a guess, but maybe because folks like yourself haven't taken the time to complain about it to the administration.

FWIW, I am an atheist, but I am also a person who believes strongly in individual rights. I give you the same advice that I give fundies who get upset over things they find offensive: You don't like the person's shirt? Don't look at it.

[ozonebaby]

I couldn't help looking at that shirt because the person who was wearing it sits right in front of me in class and everytime I looked up, there it was right in my face.

[ozonebaby]

Plus, I did complain to the administration. I wrote the safety commity in our school a nasty letter about our unfair dress code.

[lawoot]

Then may I suggest a piece of paper and tape to cover up the message? (Assuming, of course, that you have a light enough touch to get the tape to stick without the person noticing. )

Or... and this may be a long shot here... Have you talked to the person who wears the shirt, and CALMY explained to him/her why the shirt offends you? Probably won't get much beyond either: a) a blank look or b) hostility, but it's worth a try. Plus, if you DO get hostility in return, it might better your case with the admin.

[Eutychus]

This seems more like a Pit thread. And here it goes ....

[ozonebaby]

CALMLY!!!!!! I have never been calm in ever in my entire life!

[ozonebaby]

Oh, and by the way, lawoot, it's calmly not calmy. I guess I should have put it in the Pit but it's too late now.

[bdgr]

The people wearing the God shirts have every right to do so. To prevent them would be illegal. HOWEVER, them prohibiting shirts with other sorts of messages is also illegal.

[abuse angel]

schools can prohibit anything that causes a problem. they can prohibit a t-shirt that reads "you, infidel! you are going to HELL!" just as easily as one that says "drink more beer, get more sex!"

just like they can prohibit someone from screaming a prayer in the middle of a math test, they can prohibit religious t-shirts that are offensive and cause problems in the school.

the question is what is offensive? da' cook finds this t-shirt offensive. say no one else has complained about it. da' cook writes a nasty letter to the administration. if i were them, i'd roll my eyes and toss that letter right into the trash. you don't get anywhere being nasty.

[panzermanpanzerman]

While 1rst Amendment case law prohibits public school officials--as agents of the state--from endorsing religious expression, they are also equally strongly prohibited from quelling it.

See, the constitution not only forbids congress (and by extention, local school officials) from making a law establishing a religion, but the 1rst amendment also specifically prohibits them from "restricting the free exercize thereof.

Just because the U.S. lacks a state church doesn't mean the official religion of the United States defaults to atheism.

Schools are to be neutral towards religious expression. But they must not be hostile towards it.

[abuse angel]

but *if* the shirt is offensive -- and not just offensive to non-religious because it's religious, but really offensive -- the schools wouldn't be quashing religion but keeping discipline. the same argument is applied when schools ban outrageous hairstyles and other offensive forms of expression in their hallways. it's not censorship; it's keeping the peace.

[ozonebaby]

I am naturally a nasty and hostile person because I dislike most people(I threw that dislike in instead of hate for you religous nuts). People think that just because a shirt or something is about god it can't be wrong or offensive. Well I got news for you bozos who think that: IT IS and why don't you do something better with your life instead of dedicating it to something that isn't real. Of course that's my opinion and I can't change your mind about it. I evolved from an ape and that's what I believe. But why am I not allowed to express me beliefs in school but others can?

[ozonebaby]

"but *if* the shirt is offensive -- and not just offensive to non-religious because it's religious, but really offensive -- the schools wouldn't be quashing religion but keeping discipline. the same argument is applied when schools ban outrageous hairstyles and other offensive forms of expression in their hallways. it's not censorship; it's keeping the peace."

Yeah right, whatever. Not in my school. That's like saying the miss america padget isn't about looks!

[abuse angel]

yeah, lemme guess. fifteen and know everything, right? no wonder you're not getting any response to the letter.

[Anubis]

Originally posted by abuse angel
yeah, lemme guess. fifteen and know everything, right? no wonder you're not getting any response to the letter.

Uh-huh. are you sure you aren't talking about yourself? And don't
use the same thing on me just because you can't think of some snappy insult. BTW, Da' cook, well said!

I evolved from an ape and that's what I believe. But why am I not allowed to express me beliefs in school but others can?

That's exactly the problem. I'm not going to call anyone nasty names, but all of you religious (ah, forget my promise) snobs (in my school anyway) are rubbing it in our faces that we can't wear shirts with our favorite band on it(no matter how un-offensive they are) but you can still wear god shirts. I'm not saying that it is stupid to believe in god, but it is stupid to revolve your life around it. I hear so much about god in school it's sickening! You just don't want to face the FACTS that we EVOLVED from an ape and your precious lord had no part in it!

[Lemur866]

Um, you could wear a T-shirt supporting evolution. That would not be offensive or obscene. You can also wear a T-shirt with a religious message.

The standard for "offensiveness" should not be "I saw the shirt and I'm offended", but whether a reasonable person would be offended. If all it takes is one person claiming to be offended, then one person could dictate the school dress code. You have no right to not be exposed to religious messages. You have a right not to be preached at by your teachers, but the students have no such obligation.

[Gomez]

Can anyone give me the text of these T-shirts? I mean, honestly, how bad can they possibly be?

[Nocturne]

Whoa...da'cook, bobevilsquid, you guys need to CALM DOWN.

People are entitled to their beliefs without you getting snippy and mean to them about it. They're even allowed to wear T-shirts stating their beliefs as long as they're not offensive and disruptive in a classroom setting.

You know what that means, though? You can wear T-shirts that state your belief in evolution. You can (at my school) even wear T-shirts with rock bands on them as long as there's no obscene language or graphics. (Note: this was my school's policy. I do not speak for all schools.)

There are people who believe that God is real, just like your thoughts on evolution. For them to tell you you're stupid for believing in evolution (just like your hostility to religion) is petty and divisive.

With that said, I'd like to know what the T-shirts say.

[Odesio]

Originally posted by da' cook
I am naturally a nasty and hostile person because I dislike most people(I threw that dislike in instead of hate for you religous nuts).

Well at least you're honest about it. However you're going to have a hard time getting through life if you're generally hostile and nasty to those around you. For one thing who at your school is going to care about what you think since you're a naturally hostile and nasty person?

But why am I not allowed to express me beliefs in school but others can?

You can't wear a shirt about evolution? On the other hand I don't imagine that they make many shirts with an evolution.

Marc

[ozonebaby]

People around me don't care what I say and I don't care what they say (not including you all).

[Manda JO]

But you care what they have printed on their T-shirts?


P.S.--We are decended from primates, as are apes. We are not decended from apes. If you are going to espouse evolution, do so in an informed fashion.

http://www.talkorigin.com

[ozonebaby]

No we evolved from the apes not the monkeys. Does it look like I had a tail to you?

[abuse angel]

wow, you were born without a tailbone? amazing...

[ozonebaby]

Not a tailbone a tail. I said tail and I ment a tail like a monkey has not my tailbone. Sheesh!

[Manda JO]

No we evolved from the apes not the monkeys. Does it look like I had a tail to you?

Read my post, won't you? I said that we evolved from primates, not apes or monkeys. We presumeably share a common ancestor with modern apes, but with a quick scan of Britanica, I can't even find out what the name of that ancestor was, if we have identified such a thing.

In any case, you are avoiding my original question: why would a person who claims not to give a damn what people say give a damn about what people have printed on their T-shirts? I see two possibilities: either A) You don't really care, and are just looking to rabble-rouse, or B) you do care but like to tell yourself you are too cool to give a damn. Neither option makes me really admire you. If there is a third possibility, please enlighten us. If there is not a third option, I suggest you let this embaresing thread die a quiet death and stick to reading (and possibly responding to) threads for a while before you start any more. Hell, two years here (and ten years on you) and I've found maybe two things in life that I thought worth starting a pit thread over. Trust me, slow down and you will have a better time here.

[ozonebaby]

I am choice A and I must have not read all of your post because it was so boring.

P.S. it's embarrassing not embaresing.

[ozonebaby]

Plus, what if I don't want to let it die?

[abuse angel]

da' cook, if i am not mistaken the tailbone is considered to be where our tails were attached at some point during evolution.

btw, before you go around correcting everyone else's typos, why don't you take a look at the myriad of mistakes in your own posts?

[bdgr]

If they are allowing people to wear religious shirts, but not, say a band shirt, that is content discrimination and it is illegal. I have a email from the ACLU about this very subject(my nephew was running afoul of a school dress code). They can only ban a shirt if it obscene or an imediate disruption, not just because it might be disruptive, or someone finds it offensive. Contact your ACLU, be persistant, and follow through. The school will back down. There a growning challenge to the constitutionallity of oppresive school dress codes, and hopefully they will be successful.

In other words, the school is not wrong for allowing the god shirts, but is wrong for not allowing other forms of expression.

I had a friend who was kicked out of school for having a mohawk(this was many years ago), and as soon as his fathers lawyer contacted the school district, they let him back in and stopped giving him hell.

[FisherQueen]

I worked for a school that got so sick and tired of the whole debate that they just rewrote the dress-code to forbid ALL shirts with writing on them. Not so much as "Have a nice day." And sent home violators, too.

[Anubis]

Originally posted by FisherQueen
I worked for a school that got so sick and tired of the whole debate that they just rewrote the dress-code to forbid ALL shirts with writing on them. Not so much as "Have a nice day." And sent home violators, too.

That's harsh.

[Freudian Slit]

I say we outlaw all t-shirts. I want to see some naked pecs. We could all sit around, shirtless, making offerings to Pan, the goat god. It would be fun and productive.

[k.os]

One of my favorite T-Shirts is plain black, with small discrete white lettering on the left side at about chest-height. The lettering says Godless & Proud.Well, more like:

_{G o d l e s s & P r o u d}

And it has the same thing in Bold across the shoulders in the back.



Worn with a shirt, it's just another black T-Shirt. Worn by itself, it does get reactions sometimes. But then again, I wouldn't wear something like that to school (If I was, Which I'm not anymore.)

But I agree with the idea that if people aren't allowed to wear T-Shirts with their favourite band or wrestler or cartoon character on them so it won't be 'offensive', then no one should be allowed to wear T-Shirts with any message on them whatsoever.

The reason I put 'offensive' in '' is that I do think that it's the fact that the T-Shirts are offensive that got them banned, it has more to do with personnal identity and personnal expression. Both mean trouble when you're trying to keep a large number of kids "in line" with limited ressources.

[south333]

Well, I don't know about your school, but at mine we are allowed to wear anything that has cussing, alcohol, sex or drugs. Another restriction we have is that we are not allowed to wear spagetti straps, short shorts/skirts or "wife beaters". Also, no wigs.
Yeah, its strange, and some of these things are stupid, but hey, they are in charge, not me. Last I heard, we were allowed to wear evolution shirts, God shirts, anti-God shirts whatever. We can usually even get away w/ hooters shirts.

Did you ever try wearing a athiest shirt, evolution shirt, buddah shirt etc?

"It's thought that this ancient mammal served as a common ancestor of two modern groups (i.e., orders) of mammals, the insectivores (e.g. moles and shrews) and the PRIMATES"
-_{http://mickey.lcsc.edu/~msatterw/BI201/Hsapiens.html}

[bdgr]

Originally posted by FisherQueen
I worked for a school that got so sick and tired of the whole debate that they just rewrote the dress-code to forbid ALL shirts with writing on them. Not so much as "Have a nice day." And sent home violators, too.

Yeah, thats what my nephews school did, and thats what he complained to the ACLU about. They eventually backed off after a Dallas School lost a Tinker V. Demoine type lawsuit over dress code.

Students have a right to freedom of expression, and schools cant just arbitrarily step on that without reason.

[Shodan]

As regards the "Godless and Proud" T-shirt -

Here in my fair city, a kid was sent home because he wore a "Straight Pride" sweatshirt to high school. In the same high school, almost every classroom has a sign saying that it is OK to discuss your sexuality in this place, and no one can attack you for it.

Double standard, anyone?

Dress codes that say "no writing on any clothing" are a Good Thing - they prevent stupid arguments.

Regards,
Shodan

[RickJay]

Originally posted by da' cook
CALMLY!!!!!! I have never been calm in ever in my entire life!

I suggest you start learning how, or else your life will be a very difficult and frustrating one.

[ITR champion]

Originally posted by RickJay

I suggest you start learning how, or else your life will be a very difficult and frustrating one.

Many people become rich and famous without ever doing anything calmly. Just ask Jerry Falwell.

[iampunha]

Originally posted by Manda JO
A) You don't really care, and are just looking to rabble-rouse, . . .

da' cook said:
I am choice A

Hmm . . .

Oh, and da' fool? Let's not get into an "I can correct your spelling/grammar/typos/punctuation/syntax/semantics" contest, hmmm? I promise you'll lose.

[lawoot]

Oh My! I didn't spell 'calmly' correctly! I guess I must be an idiot or something, huh? Or perhaps I just got home from working an eleven hour shift. Life's too short to nit-pick spelling errors - especially ones where the original meaning can be easily noted.

[Ace309]

Back on topic, there was a big argument a few years ago at my school. We had a graduating class of 180, with around 200 kids in each grade, so everyone pretty well knew everyone else. At one of the parties, a very conspicuous girl got very conspicuously drunk and had very conspicuous sex with a very conspicuous football player who was not her boyfriend. She then proceeded to have an abortion.

Once this got around school (because high schoolers really get a kick out of other people's sexual mistakes and anguish), one of the Jesus Freaks started showing up in a sweatshirt with big white letters that said "ABORTION IS MEAN." On the back, it had several Bible verses that seemed to apply.

None of the admin could, for the life of them, understand why anyone was offended on any level other than the fact that it promoted religion.

[Monty]

My bet is that the poor souls who received da'cook's letter are still trying to glean the meaning of it from the hate, bad spelling, bad "facts," and bad grammar. That is, if one were to judge by da'cook's postings here.

People around me don't care what I say and I don't care what they say (not including you all).

I'd venture that those around you already have determined the quality (or lack thereof) of what you've had to say in the past and therefore have determined that you're just not worth listening to. Perhaps you could improve on your attitude towards others and, just maybe, others would respect you just a tad.

I am naturally a nasty and hostile person

Nobody is a naturally nasty and hostile person. It takes time to get that way. Have you considered working on being a nice and polite person? Didn't think so.

because I dislike most people

Without even having met most people? Truly amazing. There's a word for that, you know.

(I threw that dislike in instead of hate for you religous nuts).

Oh, then that makes it all right, hey? Plus, it's "religious."

People think that just because a shirt or something is about god it can't be wrong or offensive.

You don't know what people think unless you can read minds. What you can do, though, is presume that people think a certain way.

Well I got news for you bozos who think that: IT IS and why don't you do something better with your life instead of dedicating it to something that isn't real.

To some folks, deity is real. Just because you don't happen to share that belief doesn't give you carte blanche to dismiss their belief out of hand.

Of course that's my opinion

Funny thing about opinions: there are informed opinions and then there are yours. (Again, judging by your posts here.)

and I can't change your mind about it.

Well, you might have a better chance at changing people's minds about it if you would: a) quit being so hostile, b) learn how to communicate, and c) interject a correct fact or two into your spiel.

I evolved from an ape and that's what I believe.

Incorrect parsing of Theory of Evolution. Please try again.

But why am I not allowed to express me beliefs in school but others can?

Perhaps because others are more able to communicate?

[Punoqllads]

da' cook, mayhaps you'd convert more to your cause if you'd quote what was actually on the shirt rather than just complaining about it in the abstract. I, for one, am interested in what it said.

[clairobscur]

Well...I suppose that you could have a T-shirt with "Worship Satan!" on it done...And if someone finds it offensive, tell that you just happen to worship Satan. If they want to ban it, ask all the other religious T-shirts to be banned too...

[zut]

Originally posted by da' cook
I evolved from an ape and that's what I believe. But why am I not allowed to express me beliefs in school but others can?

Perhaps you could make your own T-shirt and wear it to school. Might I suggest the wording: "My dad is an ape"? I think that that has just the right amount of subtlety to slip past your school censors, yet the right amount of forthrightness nedded to let the word know that your dad is, indeed, an ape.

[Fenris]

Originally posted by da' cook, from under a bridge:
Who's that, trip-trapping across my bridge?

[RickJay]

Originally posted by ITR champion
Many people become rich and famous without ever doing anything calmly. Just ask Jerry Falwell.

I disagree. I bet Falwell is very calm when he counts his money and plans his next insult-laden cash grab.

[ozonebaby]

Sorry if I did or said anything with inncorrect grammar or anything mean, but that's how you get when you are in a school where your own grades are high while everyone else's are low and everyday you have to explain everything you have to do that day to at least 5 different people. It gets a little frustrating because you have to be the teacher to all the other kids in your class who still don't know how to do things that they were supposed to have learned 2 years ago.

But getting back to the subject, I beleive the shirt said something like, "If you don't beleive in Him, you will not be allowed into heaven because you heart is not enlightened," but I don't know that for a fact because I can't remember everything. I know it doesn't say "If you don't believe in God you are going to hell" but for me it does (and you might not agree with me but that's fine).

P.S. Language is definently not my highest grade and I am not bragging or trying to make you feel sorry for me.

P.S.S. I am saying it like this because I am trying you nice and polite thing, Monty.

[Garfield226]

I see two different da' cooks here. I see the da' cook who is

originally posted by da' cook
naturally a nasty and hostile person because {he} dislike{s} most people

and I see da' cook who has

originally posted by da' cook
to explain everything you have to do that day to at least 5 different people.
...and has to...
be the teacher to all the other kids in your class who still don't know how to do things that they were supposed to have learned 2 years ago.

Now, now...are you nice, or aren't you? Those two statements don't fit together particularly well. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, because I'll ASSUME that you mean that you get easily annoyed with people, but you still try to help them out. Remember, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, so try and help me out...

About the shirt:

originally posted by da' cook
something like, "If you don't beleive in Him, you will not be allowed into heaven because you heart is not enlightened,"

Myself being a Christian, I don't find this particularly OFFENSIVE to myself, but I do find it in extremely poor taste. I would not wear a shirt like that to school, because I don't believe I have a right to judge who gets into Heaven. Not my call.

Is this person actively trying to convert you? Is he (or she) being spiteful to you? Or is he merely wearing a shirt which states his beliefs?

I advise you to find or make a shirt which states your beliefs. Wear it. See what happens.
(note: the above paragraph only applies under the assumption that you can state your beliefs without resorting to obscenities, vulgarities, or lewdness in any form. if this is impossible, perhaps it's time to rethink your beliefs...)


Garfield226_____________________________
Hoping this doesn't get him flamed too badly..._{yeah, right...}