Does breatholding ability increase with increased aerobic fitness?

[choosybeggar]

I could WAG either way on this question but was wondering if there are any data.

[cw]

Because I may be the first post, I will have to WAG. I would say yeah, seems like it would help.

[choosybeggar]

Quick corection: this thread is in regards to breathholding and not breatholding.

[cw]

I have heard that slowing your heart rate (dont know how) increases the amount of time your breath can be held. Might try looking up that guy in in Gueiness who held his breath for something like 8 minutes.

[choosybeggar]

Jeez, just back from a Google search on breathholding. Did you know that there are wacky folks that get off on watching videos of bikini-clad women holding their breath in a bathtub. Sign me up for the bikinis and wetness, but I'll take my ladies breathing (panting, even), thank you very much.

[Yaacov Smirnov voice]America, what a country![/Yaacov Smirnov voice]

[choosybeggar]

Originally posted by cw
I have heard that slowing your heart rate (dont know how) increases the amount of time your breath can be held. Might try looking up that guy in in Gueiness who held his breath for something like 8 minutes.

One thing I know about record holders is that they hyperventilate prior to their attempts to reduce blood pCO₂. This aids them because blood pCO₂ plays a substantial role in determining the respiratory drive-when it gets above a certain level, you usually take a forced breath. Hyperventilation reduces the pCO₂ well below normal levels, allowing any schmo to hold their breath longer.

But, there's a catch. Hyperventilating does little to increase the total amount of O₂ carried by RBCs or dissolved in plasma. Even hyperventilating on 100% O₂, does little in this regard. So one may become dangerously hypoxic (low O₂), but not feel an irresistable urge to breathe. Try this trick submerged in a swimming pool and it could be adios daddy-o.

As far as my WAGs regarding my OP are concerned, I don't believe that aerobic training will (by itself) increase one's capacity to hold one's breath. That is unless aerobic training either decreases basal CO₂ production or desensitizes the breathing center to elevated CO₂ levels.

Real data would be eminently preferrable to my crap-spewing

[Dr.Pinky]

I've found that practicing holding one's breath increases one's breathholding ability.

Dr. Pinky, former Houdini fan

[kinoons]

When I was lifeguarding I was very amused by how long I could hold my breath, both actively swimming underwater and just resting underwater. I found that the more I did it the better I got

I also found that hyperventlation didn't work for me -- I actually had better success relaxing as much as I possibly could, slowing my heart rate and breathing as much as I possibly could prior to holding my breath. Relaxing always seemed to work well for me.

[choosybeggar]

Originally posted by Dr.Pinky
I've found that practicing holding one's breath increases one's breathholding ability.

Funny, that's what the husband of the bikini-clad lady reported on one of the breathholding fetishist web pages. His wife went from 30 seconds to about four minutes in a month or two.

Nevertheless, we're not looking to improve breathholding ability. We want to know if increased aerobic fitness will, at baseline breathholding ability, give you an edge.

[cw]

As a smoker and a newbie to anerobic activity (which don't mix well) I have found that my lung capacity has increased. I have tested to see how long of a breath I could take and how long it took to exhale, in the past 3 months it has increased by roughly 20 seconds. Not a big accomplishment, but I'm sure it would have something to do with being able to hold your breath.

[jovan]

This goes in the same way as what other have written, but when I started scuba diving, I went from being able to hold my breath for a lousy 40 seconds to 3 minutes in a relatively short time just by practicing every day.

[RM Mentock]

Sometimes, it is just technique, or the particular environment. I can hold my breath for over three minutes, but there are times when I try--and can't make it to a minute.

Most people probably could hold their breath for a couple minutes, with proper coaching.

[Diver]

jovan said "but when I started scuba diving, I went from being able to hold my breath for a lousy 40 seconds to 3 minutes in a relatively short time "

Say what??
When I started Scuba diving the first rule I was taught was "Never hold your breath, always breathe"

[handy]

Maybe you were trying to ask if lung capacity can be raised?

Lung capacity & breath holding are two things. You can hold your breath longer if you can control your breathing reflex, you know, where your body says take a breath.

[RM Mentock]

Originally posted by Diver
When I started Scuba diving the first rule I was taught was "Never hold your breath, always breathe"

Sure, but I'm told that divers have some of the larger lung capacities, and can hold their breath longer too. Is it true?

[barbitu8]

Conditioning or fitness decreases your resting heart rate because your heart can pump more blood with each stroke. Hence, it doesn't have to beat so rapidly. However, there is no correlation between your heart rate, fitness, and holding one's breath. You can learn to hold your breath more by practice (as noted) or by cessation of smoking (as noted). If you don't smoke and never have, you're not going to improve your lung capacity. Stopping smoking does but not beyond what it was before you began.

I have no data, but I can't see how fitness and holding one's breath has any correlation.

[Diver]

RM Mentock:

Don't know of any correlation or any reason for it to be so.
While scuba diving you are breathing air at the ambient pressure, but I don't see how that could affect the ability to hold your breath.

[mmmiiikkkeee]

RM,
If you mean lung capacity as in volume capacity, no - no reason that divers would have larger capacities than anyone else. Anyone can be a scuba diver, and as far as I know, nothing will increase the size of your lungs. As you get better at diving, your learn to make the air in your tank last longer by breathing better, but there are no physical differences.

[handy]

"Sure, but I'm told that divers have some of the larger lung capacities, and can hold their breath
longer too. Is it true?"

Why? They are breathing from a tank, why would that make their lung capacity greater?

[JillGat]

Originally posted by Diver
jovan said "but when I started scuba diving, I went from being able to hold my breath for a lousy 40 seconds to 3 minutes in a relatively short time "

Say what??
When I started Scuba diving the first rule I was taught was "Never hold your breath, always breathe"

While SCUBA diving if you breathe less frequently, you won't use up the air in your tank so quickly. It's mainly important not to hold your breath while ascending. The compressed air will expand and you could embolize your lungs.

[barbitu8]

Originally posted by JillGat

While SCUBA diving if you breathe less frequently, you won't use up the air in your tank so quickly. It's mainly important not to hold your breath while ascending. The compressed air will expand and you could embolize your lungs.

It's been a long time since I took SCUBA lessons, but as I remember being told you always breathe. True, you don't want to take rapid and shallow breaths. You have to relax, so you won't use up the air so quickly. However, you have to breathe all the time. IIRC it's the nitrogen. The nitrogen will bubble out into your system if you don't breathe the atmospheric air in the tank. I'm not sure about that, so someone can jump in on this and jump all over me. But I do remember being told to ALWAYS BREATHE.

[mmmiiikkkeee]

When people first start diving, they have a tendancy to burn through all their air relativly quickly, and when they dive with an experienced diver, it pisses him off because the dive's then over for both while he still has have a tank. You do always breath, but it's more a matter of controling your breathing especially when exerting yourself by long periods of swimming and maneuvering underwater so you don't use your air too fast. Also the deeper you go the faster you use air. You'll get the bends (the nitrogen thing) if you surface from depth too quickly; you'll pop your lung if you hold your breath while ascending from depth as the air will be under less pressure as you rise and therefore expand in volume in your lungs.

[Gaspode]

Yes, your capacity to hold your breath definitely increases with incread CV fitness. Primarily this is beacause CV fitness is partially due to an increased concentration of red blood cells. Because of this your blood has an increased ability to hold both oxygen and carbon dioxide, and as a result you can go longer without oxygen intake. This is one of the primary reasons why increased fitness leads to a lowering of heart rate.

[barbitu8]

Increased fitness leads to a lower HR because of improved cardiac muscle allowing the heart to pump more blood with the contraction. The fact that there is a greater concentration of red blood cells also helps in the need for less blood. So, that may also play a role.

Your VO2 increases with fitness, but that has no relation to lung capacity.

[Gaspode]

[quote]Originally posted by barbitu8
Increased fitness leads to a lower HR because of improved cardiac muscle allowing the heart to pump more blood with the contraction. The fact that there is a greater concentration of red blood cells also helps in the need for less blood. So, that may also play a role./quote]
Which oversimplifies the situation immensely. The lower heart rate that results from CV fitness is the result of numerous factors including an increaseed vascularisation of the volountary muscles, changes in myoglobin concentration and distribution, improved respiratory technique and size and vascualarisation of the diaphragm and intercostal muscles and the already mentioned changes heart muscle size and RBC concentration. Fit people don't have a need for less blood, the gas transport capacity of the existing blood volume is simply improved.

Your VO2 increases with fitness, but that has no relation to lung capacity. [/b]

And the OP makes no mention whatsoever of lung capacity. It simply asks "Does breatholding ability increase with increased aerobic fitness", the answer to which is a definitive YES.

[Phil Saoud]

[quote]Originally posted by Gaspode

And the OP makes no mention whatsoever of lung capacity. It simply asks "Does breatholding ability increase with increased aerobic fitness", the answer to which is a definitive YES. [/b]

I've actually been wondering if the opposite is true. Can holding your breath improve your lung capacity? There is a company called the Powerlung that claims that their device is like "weight training for your lungs". The device looks like an inhaler but is actually more of an "exhaler". It sounds very implausable to me. However, on the off chance that it has some merit, I decided to save the $85 cost and tried holding my breath for increased periods of time. I, too, got better at holding my breath but I don't know if I achieved anything else. Also, is there a downside to this practice?

[choosybeggar]

Originally posted by cw
As a smoker and a newbie to anerobic activity (which don't mix well) I have found that my lung capacity has increased. I have tested to see how long of a breath I could take and how long it took to exhale, in the past 3 months it has increased by roughly 20 seconds. Not a big accomplishment, but I'm sure it would have something to do with being able to hold your breath.

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It took you over 20 seconds to take a deep breath and then exhale it?

Originally posted by Gaspode
Yes, your capacity to hold your breath definitely increases with incread CV fitness. Primarily this is beacause CV fitness is partially due to an increased concentration of red blood cells. Because of this your blood has an increased ability to hold both oxygen and carbon dioxide, and as a result you can go longer without oxygen intake. This is one of the primary reasons why increased fitness leads to a lowering of heart rate.

Hey 'Pode, I think you may be running out of Gas on this one.

I tried to find articles supporting the notion of increased hematocrit (RBC concentration) associated with increased fitness. Instead, though, the literature supports the opposite notion.

The paradox of hematocrit in exercise physiology is that artificially increasing it by autotransfusion or erythropoietin doping improves VO2 max and performance, while in normal conditions there is a strong negative correlation between hematocrit and fitness, due to a training-induced "autohemodilution". We aimed at investigating: (a) which is the physiological range of hematocrit in highly trained professional footballers; (b) what are the characteristics of athletes with high vs low hematocrit? We determined in 77 healthy male footballers...These results show that (a) physiological values of hematocrit in these athletes are comprised between 36 and 48%; (b) "low" hematocrit (<40%) was associated with a higher aerobic capacity; (c) subjects with the higher hematocrits (>44.6%) were frequently overtrained and/or iron-deficient, and their blood viscosity (and red cell disaggregability) tended to be increased.
Clin Hemorheol Microcirc 2000;22(4):287-303
The paradox of hematocrit in exercise physiology: which is the "normal" range from an hemorheologist's viewpoint?
Brun JF, Bouchahda C, Chaze D, Benhaddad AA, Micallef JP, Mercier J.

You also state that the increased hematocrit increases CO₂ capacity. My understanding is that the majority of CO₂ is transported as dissolved gas or as carbonic acid/bicarbonate (thanks to the action carbonic anhydrasae which, BTW, is located within the RBCs) with a relatively small amount carried in association with hemoglobin. Even if CO₂ capacity were substantially increased, though, I'm not positive how that bears on breathholding since by not breathing, the only means of reducing onboard CO₂ is out of the picture. Maybe you could argue that with a higher capacity, the CO₂ concentration "seen" by the respiratory center is reduced.

Do you know of any data supporting the aerobic fitness-breathholding connection?

I found this interesting article.

It is well known that rebreathing relieves the respiratory distress of maximal breathholding despite worsening blood gases, and it has been suggested that vagal input has a role in ameliorating this sensation via activation of pulmonary stretch receptors (PSR). However, it is believed by divers that expiration can lead to partial relief of distress of breathholding at total lung capacity (TLC) allowing a prolongation of breathholding. We studied the independent effects of an expiration and an inspiration on relief of respiratory distress of breathholding. Subjects held their breath at TLC until distress became intolerable, then exhaled to FRC and performed a second breathhold. When distress again became intolerable, subjects inspired to TLC a gas that resembled their exhaled gas and performed a third breathhold. Subjects noted partial relief with both an expiration and an inspiration. However, relief of distress was greater and the subsequent breathhold longer after an inspiration than after an expiration. We suggest that relief of distress after an inspiration is compatible with the inhibitory effect of PSR input; the mechanism of relief that occurs after an expiration is as yet uncertain.
Respir Physiol 1995 Jul;101(1):41-6
Relief of distress of breathholding: separate effects of expiration and inspiration.
Flume PA, Eldridge FL, Edwards LJ, Houser LM.

Of course it says nothing about aerobic fitness, but it shows that a component of the sensation of air hunger is independent of blood pO2 or pCO2 levels. This result is in agreement with the the observation reported by many in this thread that with breathholding, practice makes perfect. Perhaps, if a link between aerobic fitness and breathholding does exist, such a connection would be through a modification of the transmission of air hunger impulses from the lungs?

[barbitu8]

I can confirm, at least in my case, that there is no positive correlation between fitness and hematocrit. In fact, my hematocrit, along with my hemoglobin, has been on the low side of normal (hg=13) for many years, ever since I began running marathons over 20 years ago. So, there may well be a negative correlation. One year, my doctor noted my hg to be 12 and wanted a repeat exam, which was 13.

[Anal Scurvy]

Okay, this is an EXTREME wag, but maybe it's similar to adjusting to hypoxia, wherein your body starts producing more red blood cells.

Keep in mind I'm a humanities fellow and this could not be further out of my realm than if I were to try correcting Hollywood on it's perception of Chaos Theory, but I just felt like telling everyone that I know what hypoxia is.

[barbitu8]

I should add, to expand upon Choosybeggar that auto-hemodilution means that as you get fitter, your blood volume increases. In addition to a high ejection fraction, your left ventricle holds more blood due to increased blood volume. This, however, results in a reduced hematocrit, although the absolute numbers of hgb are not reduced.

[choosybeggar]

Nonetheless, check out this amazing exercise physiology web page.

[barbitu8]

Thanks a heap for that link choosybeggar . It cleared up a longtime problem I've had with heart enlargement: the hypertensive have enlarged hearts, but so do those who exercise a lot. What's the difference? I came to the conclusion, long ago, that the athlete's heart wall is thicker, but now I see that's only one factor. The heart is not only thicker but longitudinally bigger; whereas, the hypertensive's is just longitudinally bigger. This, however, is the same as the weight lifter. So, that's another problem. I haven't read all of that link yet, but from what I read, that dilemma was not resolved.

BTW, I wish that the author was consistent in his spelling of "intermittent." I noticed that in spite of the many times he used that word, he spelled it correctly only twice.

[Phil Saoud]

Originally posted by barbitu8
BTW, I wish that the author was consistent in his spelling of "intermittent." I noticed that in spite of the many times he used that word, he spelled it correctly only twice.

He spells it correctly intermittantly. I was going to suggest that you cut the author some slack because he if from Norway but checking my facts, I see that he is an American, now living in Norway. Either way, there is a tremendous amount of information at this site. I've been visiting it for about a year now and I'm still learning (slowly). I especially like the suggestion for using heart rate reserve instead of maximum heart rate to gauge maximum efforts. This is discussed under the heading "Understanding Heart Rate". As a cyclist and XC skier, "Understanding Intervals" is also very useful. It is probably less useful to runners, but I'll suggest it anyway.

I didn't get any feedback about my Powerlung question. I was hoping someone had tried it or knew enough not to and could tell me why...

[barbitu8]

Originally posted by Phil Saoud
As a cyclist and XC skier, "Understanding Intervals" is also very useful. It is probably less useful to runners, but I'll suggest it anyway.

I didn't get any feedback about my Powerlung question. I was hoping someone had tried it or knew enough not to and could tell me why...

Runners do intervals, too. It's no less useful to them. I never even heard of this Powerlung.

[choosybeggar]

Originally posted by barbitu8
Thanks a heap for that link choosybeggar .

No problema. De nada.

I found it astonishingly good and posted it thinking that you, specifically, might like it.

I love it when someone gets just the right gift.

[Phil Saoud]

Originally posted by barbitu8

Runners do intervals, too. It's no less useful to them. I never even heard of this Powerlung. [/b]

I had always assumed that intervals helped improve speed but not necessarily endurance. Since you mentioned marathons, I didn't figure sprinting played much of a factor. Apparently I don't know much about running, having given it up about 25 years ago.

As for the powerlung, I hesitated to post the link but you can see for yourself...Powerlung

[barbitu8]

As that link that Choosybeggar posted shows, interval training is the fastest way for cardiovascular improvement. And marathoners also do intervals, which is not the same as sprinting. Sprinting is an all-out dash. Intervals consist of a set number of repeats of set distances with a set time of "intervals" of rest in-between. The repeats are not sprints. They initially are done at "date pace" working up to "race pace." I've known many marathoners who've done mile intervals. In fact, I did some years and years ago. I don't do much of any kind of intervals now.

[barbitu8]

I should have noted that you're right about intervals and endurance. If you're interested in only finishing a marathon and not in your time, then there's no need for intervals.

[Phil Saoud]

Perhaps your intervals are not sprints but mine usually are. The cycling club that I train with does intervals that are extremely fast and take a maximum effort on my part(s). If I trained alone, I probably wouldn't be inclined, or able, to push myself as hard. The critical factor however, is not the interval intensity, but making sure there is sufficient recovery between intervals. What I learned from the MAPP site is that the goal is not to gradually increase the intensity of the interval. It is to increase the duration at which you can expend that effort.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the original topic. Thanks, though, for your input. I'm still thinking that the Powerlung link might be loosely related to the OP. The company does have some science to back up their claims. However, I believe if they had any credibility, they lost it in their "Reviews" section, which consists mainly of ads placed by them in various magazines.

[barbitu8]

The MAPP site refers to the speedwork portion as "sprints," but did place the word in quotes to show that they are not really sprints, merely using the word to distinguish them from the "jogs."

Everything I've learned about intervals is that they are NOT sprints. You're not going to do 12 x 400s with a 200 job by going all out. You have to do them slow enough so you can complete 12 of them. Many people I've seen do them too fast and can't complete 12.

I once took a week-long running camp with Roy Benson and his crew and he went into some details about how the speed work should be accomplished. He got most of his ideas from the late Bowerman.

That said, you're not loafing doing the speed work. But you're not going 100% all out either.

Intervals differ from repetitions in that you don't have "sufficient recovery." Your recovery is only partial. Repetitions you have complete recovery and, of curse, a longer rest period. It is, however, during the recovery that your heart improvement is experienced, not during the speed portion. I think that what you are referring to as "intervals" are really "repetitions."

[choosybeggar]

Maybe y'all could save me the trouble of opening a new thread.

I wish to find the best fall/winter training regimen to put me in tip top form for Spring Ultimate Frisbee.

Ultimate, in case you're unfamiliarwith the sport, is similar to soccer with respect to running requirements; sprinting and endurance are both important.

So how should I train? I'm 32. I just began jogging regularly again about 2 1/2 months ago. Now, I am comfortably running 3.5 miles in 30 min 3 X per week.

I guess I should probably do intervals, but when should I start? I worry that pushing too hard too soon will result in injury. Or that I'd be better off building an endurance base for another couple of months. Should I keep extending my training pace runs by 10% per week and not do intervals for a while? If so, then when do I start. And when I do start, how hard do I run (I don't own a HR monitor), for how long, and with how many reps? Also, would I do intervals every time I train for a given period of time, or should I mix them in to normal training runs?

And don't even get me started about fartleks...

[barbitu8]

Them's a lot of questions, Choosybeggar. First, I'd say that your base is a little shakey, at 10.5 miles a week to do any kind of speed work. I'd recommend building a better foundation first. Speed is not important in this phase of training. Visualize a pyramid. The bottom is your base and this is built up on distance only, with no regard to pace.

I'd recommend, to avoid injury, building your base to at least 15-20 miles a week. (Most runners who do speed work, do much more. I'm doing around 60 now, but I also plan to run a marathon in a few months.) Since you're young, even younger than I was when I started running, you can do two speed works a week. Experts say one should consist of intervals and the other a tempo run. A tempo run is when you run close to your lactate threshold for about 20 minutes during a run. (See your link for "lactate threshold.")

I've already discussed intervals, which differ from repetitions because they involve incomplete recovery during the recovery period and are not run all out, as repetitions are. No one does reps any more. Over 20 years ago, the experts found that intervals are better. You should try to run 12 X 400, which means running 400 meters 12 times with a 200 meter recovery jog in-between. However, since you are a rookie at speed work, I'd recommend that you begin with 6 X 400 at first, and gradually work up to 12.

Those who are more seriously involved in running then graduate to other stuff, such as ladders, reverse ladders, 800s, etc. For your purposes, 400 meters is fine.

NEVER, NEVER mix speed work with endurance. Check the pyramid again. Coaches and experts use the pyramid to peak for a certain race, the acme of the pyramid being the race date. As the pyramid gets narrower, your weekly mileage decreases, but your pace increases.

I don't have a heart monitor and never have. You can check your HR manually after an interval. (Technically, the "interval" is the recovery period, but many use it to refer to the speed period, as I just did.) After a speed period, your HR should be quite high, perhaps 140-150. Check it again after the recovery jog, and if it is 100-110, then you can do a repeat. If it's higher, wait until it drops below 110.

If you have any additional questions, I'd be glad to help if I can. You can email me if you wish, but I'm sure others will want to hop in and help too.

[barbitu8]

Oh, and be sure to stretch all you leg muscle groups: hamstrings, quads, gastrocs, soleus, abductors and adductors. If you don't know how and can't find a website to show you, I can help, but I'm sure there are many websites out there. Try http://www.runnersworld.com or http://www.roadrunnersports, or http://www.runningtimes.com