A legal question regarding making exact change

[struct]

Have you ever had a cab driver try to pull the "I don't have any change" scam on you? Well it happened to me today for about the dozenth time, and I'm sick of it. What I'd like to know is this: is a business provider legally obligated to provide correct change for a transaction? If he/she can't provide correct change, what remedy is available to the consumer?

For instance, take what happened to me today. My fare was $14.55, and all I had was a twenty and a ten dollar bill on me. I wanted to give him seventeen dollars, but he claimed that he only had one single to give back to me in the way of change. Do I have the legal right to give him the ten and say "tough luck sir, if you can't make change then that's all that you're getting"?

[Violet]

Can't answer the legal Q, but if I frequented taxis, I'd carry many ones and fives. It's like when I know I'll be at parking meters, I carry a roll of quarters.

[struct]

Originally posted by Violet
Can't answer the legal Q, but if I frequented taxis, I'd carry many ones and fives. It's like when I know I'll be at parking meters, I carry a roll of quarters.

I wish I were wealthy enough to "frequent" cabs, and if I did I'd try to make sure to have plenty of small bills on me. Today I was "infrequenting" a cab. :-)

[Violet]

Maybe my eyes are failing me, struct, but did you say

Well it happened to me today for about the dozenth time, and I'm sick of it.

A DOZEN times is not frequently? The last time I took a cab was in Jan. 2000.

[HeyHomie]

I don't carry around coins to give as change; my manager doesn't even give them to me when he gives me my "bank" for the shift. If your pizza is $14.55, and you hand me a ten and a five, I'm going to conclude that I got a $.45 tip.

I've deliverd several hundred pizzas in the few months I've been working at my pizza joint. Maybe twice has someone actually gotten pissy about not getting their nickels and dimes back as change. I told them that I don't carry around coins to give back as change, and that's just all there is to it. If they don't like it, they can call the store and get a $.xx credit on their next pizza, and next time, write a check if you insist on paying with exact change.

Of course, this has absolutely no bearing on the OP's problem with his/her cabbie.

[kanicbird]

I would say one remidy would to be to tell them they will have to go with you to get the change - I bet they would come up w/ it real fast then. That assumes there is a nearby store. or you can start asking anyone nearby for change.

[Royal Sampler]

Originally posted by rastahomie
I don't carry around coins to give as change; my manager doesn't even give them to me when he gives me my "bank" for the shift. If your pizza is $14.55, and you hand me a ten and a five, I'm going to conclude that I got a $.45 tip.

I've deliverd several hundred pizzas in the few months I've been working at my pizza joint. Maybe twice has someone actually gotten pissy about not getting their nickels and dimes back as change. I told them that I don't carry around coins to give back as change, and that's just all there is to it. If they don't like it, they can call the store and get a $.xx credit on their next pizza, and next time, write a check if you insist on paying with exact change.

Of course, this has absolutely no bearing on the OP's problem with his/her cabbie.

This would have to be the biggest cultural difference I have noticed between the United States and Australia. Tipping is virtually unherad of here, and yet it is rife in the US. Cabbies in Australia ALWAYS carry change with them, as do Pizza Guys.

Yeah. So, uhh... on with the OP...

[AWB]

Originally posted by rastahomie
I don't carry around coins to give as change; my manager doesn't even give them to me when he gives me my "bank" for the shift. If your pizza is $14.55, and you hand me a ten and a five, I'm going to conclude that I got a $.45 tip.

I've deliverd several hundred pizzas in the few months I've been working at my pizza joint. Maybe twice has someone actually gotten pissy about not getting their nickels and dimes back as change. I told them that I don't carry around coins to give back as change, and that's just all there is to it. If they don't like it, they can call the store and get a $.xx credit on their next pizza, and next time, write a check if you insist on paying with exact change.

Of course, this has absolutely no bearing on the OP's problem with his/her cabbie.

Another pizza guy here.

I always carry at least a dollar in coins just for the 1 customer in 100 that wants exact change. Since they don't have to tip at all, forcing them to give you $0.45 is illegal and they do have the right to call the cops on you.

True, 99% of the time they tell me to "keep the change". But I figure it's better to appear as though I'm willing to give it to them.

[hijack]
Once an order came to $16.10. I was given a $20 and told "keep the change". I said, "Thank you," and trotted off with my $3.90 tip. When I got back to the store, the manager said the customer called to complain that I'd run off with her money. I told him that she told me to keep the change. We called her back, and she confirmed that she had said "keep the change", but she meant "keep the coins". Well, wait for me to give you back the bills, then say "keep the change".
[/hijack]

[AWB]

P.S. -
change -n
...
12. a balance of money that is returned when the sum tendered in payment is larger than the sum due.
13. coins of low denomination.
...

So, I used the #12 definition, she used the 13th.

[manhattan]

There is still an identifiable General Question about the law on the table here. I for one would like to know the answer. On whom does the legal obligation fall?

[Otto]

IANAL, but it strikes me that any business from which change might be provided, whether it be a pizza delivery svc, a taxi svc, a store, whatever, which makes the decision not to give its employees the ability to make change is engaging in deceptive business practices and quite possibly fraud, i.e. it's quoting one price but effectively charging another. That the overage may be absorbed into the "tip" the customer may choose to offer is no excuse. But they probably figure no one's going to make a fuss over a dollar or 45 cents or however much it is. It seems to me you would be completely within your legal rights to demand that correct change be provided at no additional expense to you.

[ignatzmouse]

I'm still waiting on a definitive answer here [Mr. Hand voice]Anyone?... Anyone?[/Mr. Hand voice]

It does seen to me that there is a difference between pizza and taxis. If the customer who orders a pizza doesn't have change, the pizza delivery can always refuse to give up the pizza. Sure they may be unhappy, but that might encourage the store owner to provide some change for the delivery folks.

In the case of the taxi ride, the service has been rendered. It would seem to me that it falls upon the cabbie to either have change, or make the passenger aware at the outset that no change is availiable. Could this be covered by licensing rules?


[Mr. Hand voice]Anyone?... Anyone?[/Mr. Hand voice]

[bibliophage]

The topic has come up in another thread (which I can't find now), in regard to businesses that refuse to accept $100 bills. I think the conclusion was that businesses are required to accept all "legal tender" but are not required to give you any change.

[lucwarm]

I realize that this doesn't totally answer the question, but, I got this from the NYC Taxi & Limousine Comission Web Page:

A driver must always be capable of making change of a $20 bill, provided that if the driver finds himself unable to change a $20 bill during his workshift he may, with the passenger's consent, place the meter in an off or "Vacant" position, illuminate the "Off Duty" light, make an appropriate trip record entry and proceed to the nearest location where he may reasonably expect to obtain change.

[ignatzmouse]

Thanks lucwarm, that sounds like a pretty good answer to me.

businesses are required to accept all "legal tender" but are not required to give you any change

Once again, I assume this only applies only in cases where the customer has the option of refusing to make the purchase.

[bibliophage]

Actually, it was in relation to paying for gasoline that had already been pumped. It's theoretically possible to siphon out the gas you pumped in, but in practice it's not likely to be done.

[struct]

Regarding frequency vs. infrequency: I suppose it's all relative. :-)

Regarding legality and ethicality: After sleeping on it, cooling off and gaining a little perspective, it occurs to me that as despicable as the cabbies behavior is, ethically (and although IANAL either, my guess is legally too) the onus to provide exact payment falls upon the taxi passenger.

Side note: A Yahoo search turned up a number of articles about foreign taxi drivers pulling the "don't have change" routine (one country, I forget which, was even considering making it illegal to not carry change, punishable by fine and/or imprisonment!)

[struct]

Originally posted by bibliophage
Actually, it was in relation to paying for gasoline that had already been pumped. It's theoretically possible to siphon out the gas you pumped in, but in practice it's not likely to be done.

So with a cab, maybe you could demand that he drive you back to the point where you were when the meter was at $10?

[Little Nemo]

Generally, the unwritten contract between you and the cab company is that they would provide a serive, ie driving you to a location of your choosing, and you would provide a payment based on a preset distance fee. By getting in the cab and telling the driver where you want to go, you are accepting these terms. There's nothing in the agreement that requires the cab company to accept amounts larger than their payment and give you money back in return.

However, the passage that lucwarm quoted would change this. In areas where such policies are in effect, the contract between the passenger and the cab company would include these terms.

[Ennui]

I'm a part time cab driver. Generally change is no problem but I still get the occasional passenger with a "what, you can't break a $100?" kind of attitude.

Generally if I am low on change I make a point of mentioning the fact right after the passenger gives me a destination. I'll give them a fairly accurate estimation of what the fare will be and explain my change situation. If it turns out we need to break a bill I'll find a place on route.

Tips, and repeat business are a major component of my income, so avoiding disgruntled passengers is an issue of significance to me. In the situation mentioned in the OP, had I not sorted the change situation out before hand, and no other solution was workable, I'd have taken the ten and ate the loss. Assuming of course the passenger wasn't a major a-hole to me en route.

As far as the legal question in the OP? Not entirely sure. The passenger doors of our vehicles have a sticker explaining that we have no more than $5 in change and the only time I had a related argument go to the "flag down a cop" level the cop sided with me and I got $15 for a four dollar fare.(the passenger had a $20, I had five singles then more twentys, the cop decided I was responcible for the advertised $5 in change and the passenger for the rest)

[Ariadne]

I would have just given him the ten. He would have "found" change soon enough after that.

I really don't like cab drivers because _every_ time I take a cab they try to rip me off. That includes the cabbies who've done the "Did I say $15 for the whole trip, no I meant $15 from each of you," the "No no, the highway really is the fastest way to get there (does 1500 N. Charles St. to 2900 N. Charles St. sound like it requires ten minutes on the highway?)," and the random 30 cent to $5 surcharge guys. Oh, and the dispatchers who suddenly don't speak English anymore when I call to complain.

Somehow cabbies always think I'm a stupid tourist or there's the "backpack surcharge" (if you look like a student of the expensive university nearby, you get charged extra for an awful lot in this neighborhood. Has no one ever heard of financial aid?) Screw it, I know the prices of pretty much any cab trip I take in this city, and when I hear, "Oh, that will be $20," for what should be a $5 ride, I just hand them the $5 and forget about the tip I was going to give them.

Sorry for the rant, I'm still bitter about the $48, mile and a half cab ride that two friends and I got ripped off on freshman year.

[Ariadne]

Oops, forgot I was in General Questions and not the IMHO.

[johnson]

There's a much more important difference between taxi service and pizza delivery than the transaction being completed but for payment--taxis are licensed and regulated, pizza parlors are not. My guess is every taxi commission has regulations dealing with this issue, and I would bet that most of them are along the lines of the one from NYC quoted above by lucwarm.

[DPWhite]

If you tell the guy that you have a twenty for a fourteen dollar fare and ask him if he has three bucks change so you can give him a three buck tip, you will find he has it.

[Bill H.]

I don't know the law, but I'll throw in my legally useless opinion of what it probably is.

It strikes me that for general business, the law should be simple: one party provides a product or service, and the other provides payment (cash in this instance). If the second party can't pay because they don't have it, legally they are not entitled to the product/service. If they've already absorbed the service (as in the case where a taxi ride has already been provided), then they are in debt and must find a way to make payment. They are not entitled to a free or reduced cost service just because they are unable to pay.

A good businessman in the position of the first party will have correct change, but that wasn't asked.

[AHunter3]

A vendor in a store who refused to accept your current, for whatever reason, is within the scope of the law because no debt exists until the transaction occurs. (Bringing the product to the counter doesn't create a debt because it doesn't make the product yours). A taxi driver who takes you somewhere is in a somewhat different situation because a debt now exists, and the currency you offer is "legal tender for all debts, public or private". I know that the taxi driver may not refuse currency and still pursue the debt--for example, if you offered a handful of Sackies and $2 bills and the driver were to demand more conventional currency instead, you could declare that you have satisfied the debt by offering payment which was refused.

I'm not sure that the taxi driver is obligated to make change, though. Such an obligation could be awfully open-ended, at least in theory: $10,000 bills are still legal tender. In practice, nothing larger than $100 is in circulation, but it would be inconvenient to need to have on hand the cash necessary to make change for a hundred to pay for a <$10 cab ride.

But I doubt that the passenger in such a circumstance can be legally forced to turn over a sum greater than the debt due to the cabbie's inability to make change. The debt would remain, and arrangements would have to be made to attend to its satisfaction.

(IANAL)

[johnson]

Taxi service is regulated in most if not all areas. One reason for this is that out-of-towners often avail themselves of the service; it certainly isn't good for the business community if everyone in the rest of the country (and world) says "Boy, they sure screw you in Smithville."

You've seen the regulations regarding this in NYC. I said similar regulations most likely apply in every city. Here's DC's:

806 Carrying and Making Change

806.1 When the driver does not have available sufficient currency to change a large bill in payment of the fare, the driver shall inform the passenger of that fact while en route to the passenger's destination, and ask whether change will be required. The driver shall inform the passenger of the charge for making change pursuant to 806.4.

806.2 If the passenger states that change will be required, the driver shall stop en route and provide an opportunity to change the bill in question. No charge for the stop shall be permitted.

806.3 A Commission approved sign that is displayed within the passenger's view, stating that the operator can only change a designated bill, may be considered as notice to the passenger of the operator's limitation on making change.

806.4 If the driver has informed the passenger of the lack of change as set forth in §806.1 and the passenger, without notification, presents the driver at the destination with a bill requiring change which the driver is unable to provide, the driver may charge fifty cents (500) for going to obtain change and returning to the passenger's original destination.

806.5 In no other circumstances shall a charge be imposed for deviations or stops required in order to obtain change.

So, in DC, the obligation is on the driver to inform the passenger of his capabilities to make change; the passenger can either stop on his way without being charged (which I think I saw was a 30¢ charge per stop, although it appears the meter still runs), and if the passenger realizes at his destination that he doesn't have appropriate change and the cabbie doesn't either, he's charged 50¢.

This isn't rocket science, and extended analogies with pizza delivery or (frankly, virtually any) other commercial businesses are misguided since taxi service is regulated independently of any other business.

[TheRob]

I would have asked how much the trip would cost beforehand....
Then I would have made sure the taxi driver had change...
The bottom line is that you owe the driver money and it's up to you to pay him exactly what you owe...

[johnson]

The bottom line is that you owe the driver money and it's up to you to pay him exactly what you owe...

Have you read any of this thread, TheRob?

[Mr2001]

I deliver Chinese food, and the only time I'm guaranteed to have change is when the customer says "I need change for $xx" on the phone. They were given a price when they placed their order, and they had 45 minutes to come up with that amount.

[Ennui]

Just one last point from a cabbie's perspective. I have no doubt that there are a few loathsome feculant low lifes driving taxies in this nation who would use any pretext to extort more than their fair (or fare) share from those who rely on their services. After all, who would ever expect the average holder of a hack license to have a stronger moral code than the average holder of public office. Be that as it may, and in reference to my previous post in this thread let me say the following:

There is a very good reason for cab drivers to not carry a sizable amount of cash with them. I don't have the cite available but to the best of my understanding the only job in American that promises you a greater likelihood of staring down the wrong end of a hand gun than driveing cab is being a late night convenience store clerk. And even then the demographics vary.

It's sad to say but there are people out there who view us as nothing but ATM machines that come when you call them. I could tell you of my own experiences with being robed, or mention things like the young lady holding what appeared to be a small baby wrapped in a blanket that turned out to be a plastic doll and a sawed off shot gun (happened to a good friend of mine).

And yes, there have been times that I have had change on me and, in light of circumstances, I denied it. If you give me the wrong vibe when you ask if I can break a $50 of course I'll tell you no. But in that case, as with any other similar case, I will offer to find change on route.

So yes I, as a contentious and courteous transportation professional, will always try to resolve our transaction to our mutual satisfaction. And should a cabbie ever try to extort extra money from you on any suspicious pretext, give them freaking hell for it. But please do all you can to provide payment in the smallest denomination possible, or at the least ask us if we can break a $20 or $50 while there's opportunity to preempt any misunderstanding. Thank you, and have a nice day.

[struct]

Well, this has degenerated into an IMHO discussion, so here's my "change from a dollar for a ninety-eight cent fare":

Excerpted quotation:

Originally posted by Ennui
There is a very good reason for cab drivers to not carry a sizable amount of cash with them... It's sad to say but there are people out there who view us as nothing but ATM machines that come when you call them... And yes, there have been times that I have had change on me and, in light of circumstances, I denied it. If you give me the wrong vibe when you ask if I can break a $50 of course I'll tell you no. But in that case, as with any other similar case, I will offer to find change on route.

Your point about not carrying a sizable amount of cash is understandable and reasonable, plus, not uncommon in other circumstances, particularly with convenience stores and delivery services (e.g. "driver carries no more than X dollars in cash" or "clerk cannot change bill greater than X dollars"). I would say for your typical fare that it's an unreasonable expectation for a cabbie to have to break a hundred or even a fifty (although it would be nice if cabs did post that they will not make change for certain bills).

HOWEVER, I would also say that it's perfectly reasonable to expect that change from a twenty be made, and I'm doubtful that it would be inconvenient or hazardous for a cab driver to have to carry a number of small bills for that purpose.

I'll conclude with a supplementary legal question: if a cab driver lies about her/his ability to make change for the purpose of obtaining a larger tip, is that fraud and/or larceny by deceit?

[Eliahna]

I have no facts to offer this debate. I do, however, have an opinion.

If cab drivers are not obligated to make change, then why would they ever offer change? If you can charge $20 for a $15 trip, why charge $15?

The obligation should be on the cab driver to carry change, to a point. Personally, I would expect to see cab drivers required to advertise that they can make change to, say, $20, and if they aren't able to cover it, then the customer should get a discount. Charging extra for the service because the driver doesn't have change doesn't make sense, especially as you pay for a service you've already received.

I live in Australia. We have a higher minimum wage, therefore we don't need to tip. Some people are starting to put out tip jars due to the influence of American culture, but I don't tip because that would be double-dipping. Their wages are factored into their prices.

I frequently catch taxis around my town. They all have a clear and easy to read trip meter that the passenger can see from anywhere in the car. They all have a list of rights and obligations posted in plain view that states that the driver must take the most direct and practical route unless another is specified. The list also tells you how much you are to be charged for each service (hiring fee, per kilometre fee, late night surcharge, etc). I have never had a cab driver struggle to produce change for me. In fact, many of the local cab drivers will pause the meter when it reaches an even dollar figure, because that's the kind of guys they are. In return, I never pay them with large bills, and I try to include as much loose change as possible - they appreciate this.

If I had a pizza delivery man show up with a $14.55 pizza, and only a $5 note for change, I would refuse the pizza, call his boss and complain, and change pizza parlours. How dare you assume I should tip you 45 cents. When I get home delivery, I'm asked what denomination I'll pay with over the phone and the delivery driver has the correct amount of change taped to the box when he arrives. In the rare cases that I haven't been asked first and the driver doesn't have the right change, I've been given a discount rather than overcharged. The only delivery person I've ever seen try to get a tip by carrying the wrong change is the grotty guy from one of the local fish and chip shops. We made him come up with the right change - after all, the fish and chip shops charge a home delivery fee! He's slow, which is weird because he drives like a maniac, his car is so loud it wakes the whole neighbourhood and he often brings his weird friends along - he's not exactly a tipping candidate. We changed fish and chip shops after the tip incident.