That old goat

Could the Judas Goat have been part of the inspiration for Satan as goatlike? Seems to me that leading your buddies to slaughter would also be a reason for people to think of you as evil...

Maybe just a farm girl's fancy, having spent all too much of my time in this ol' cowtown...


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This was from long ago, when we didn't ask people to provide a link to the column. Since it's now re-appeared, I have taken the liberty of editing in a link to the column: Why is Satan depicted as looking like a goat? -- CK Dexter Haven

What is a Judas goat anyway? (please pardon my ignorance...)
Just want to say one thing; in some circles, "goat" is a term used for skeptics, "sheep" for believers. Does that make us skeptics "devilish"?

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Eduardo.

I'll take this from Old Testament, someone will have to take it from there to New Testament.

The notion of the scape-goat starts in Leviticus 16. Two goats are chosen; random selection (casting lots) picks one to be sacrificed, and the other for Azazel. The goat chosen for Azazel is led out into the wilderness and let go, symbolically bearing the sins of the people with it.

The meaning of Azazel is unclear, it appears nowhere else in the Bible. There are three basic lines of interpretation: (a) Azazel is the name of the place, an inaccessible region (b) the word is a contraction of ez "goat" and azal "to go away", so it means the goat that is sent away (c) The preferable interpretation is that Azazel is the demonic ruler of the wilderness.

James Frazer devoted an entire volume of his monumental study of religion and folklore, The Golden Bough to the scapegoat, documenting similar practices throughout the world, and through history. The transfer of sins or impurities to an animal (or person or object) in a way that destroys it or prevents its return is a clear reflection of the magical objectives of demonology and exorcism.

The ritual of the scapegoat continued to function for centuries as an essential component of Temple worship in Jerusalem.

OK, now how did we get from there to Judas-goat?

Arthur C Clarke has an interesting, albeit fictional, theory on why the devil looks like a goat in his book "Childhoods End". I recommend it if you enjoy good science fiction.

I found a website that says that Azazel is from Jewish legend and is a demon or evil spirit. It is also described as a symbol of uncleanliness.

Not very helpful I know but at least I learned something.

Could this be just a matter of semantics? Is it possible that "Judas Goat" is a term known only to English speaking people?
If so, it could very well be unlikely to have any relation with Satan's goatlike image, right?

Lori, since the question was on Judas goat, not Azazel, I didn't go into that. The three interpretations I offered for Azazel were all known in Talmudic times (say, 200 BC to 200 AD), and proponents of one theory or another developed stories about them. The theory that Azazel was a demon of the desert in the older biblical times (say 800 BC to 1200 BC) had several proponents, who then told stories about Azazel the Demon.

So the notion that "Azazel is an evil spirit from Jewish legend" is true, but the "legends" were fairly new ones (last 2000 years or so) and came after the Biblical references to Azazel.

I prefer not putting the cart before the horse.

Anyone who wonders why the devil might be represented as a goat has never taken a good look at a goat. And I don't mean the petting zoo variety. I'm talking the goats wandering the streets in India, for example.

Those suckers look EVIL - like they KNOW something.

Creepy goat - baby no like!

Thank you, MLE, for intiating this!
I'm a spanish-speaking city dweller (born and raised in Mexico City) that had no idea whatsoever of the meaning of the term "Judas Goat".
I'm learning a lot here!

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"What we need is not the will to believe, but the will to find out."
-Bertrand Russell

Someone asked what a Judas Goat is. This is what the english speakers call it, obviously Judas for the biblical reason. The name is new, but that doesn't mean the function hasn't been around for a while. When you're slaughtering sheep, you have a black goat in with them. The black goat is the Judas Goat. He's trained to start the sheep into the slaughter house, then get himself out of the way. He's black so that he can be picked out from the sheep easily, and goats are a sight smarter than sheep so training him to do this is not all that difficult.

I was just musing, but this thread has certainly been educational! Thanks everyone!

Very interesting, MLE, thanks... so the Judas goat has nothing to do with the scape-goat or the Azazel goat, but is a modern concoction based purely on the New Testament reference. Fascinating! I had assumed (erroneously, it now turns out) that the Judas goat was simply a variation on the scape-goat.

Regarding your reply about the devil having goat-like features, I am suprised and almost shocked that you overlooked the obvious - i.e. that he resembles very strongly the horned god of Wicca - those sworn enemies of the Christians. What you said about the gods of one religion being the devils of the next is true. Witches were persecuted relentlessly by the Christians out of fear and mistrust. The Old Pagan religions were using the imagery of the Horned God for the Autumn cycle of the year - and it was the most frightening image that the Christians could grasp. But they stole a lot of images from Pagans, not just the devil. Where do you think Christmas trees, Yule logs, gift giving and Easter bunnies (in fact, all the Easter symbols) came from?? They were Pagan symbols at one time and were converted to Christianity to help those poor misguided souls see the light.

Considering where Christianity originated, I imagine the goat-like devil owes much of his existance to Pan and/or Faunus.

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"We're gonna have lawyers here. It'll be a fun time."
--R.R.S.

I think the practice that I refer to as the Judas Goat is far older than the name. The name, obviously, is based on the New Testament, but I think the practice of using a goat to lead the sheep to slaughter goes back further.

Of course, the use of goat like features on the devil isn't that old, either, I just wondered rather idly if the two had any relation...

Thanks for the great information

Are we all (Cecil included) overlooking the Jewish prohibition against eating pork? It's not just pork - the prohibition extends to all cloven-hooved animals, ostensibly because of their association with a similarly shod devil.

Except that that's incorrect.

Leviticus 11:3-7
"Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the hare, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the swine, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you." (bolding mine)

So it was perfectly fine to eat cloven-hooved animals, as long as they also chewed the cud.

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"We're gonna have lawyers here. It'll be a fun time."
--R.R.S.

Thanks, Kat, for pointing out my error.
However, now I'm really confused. What is the difference between "parts the hoof" and "cloven-footed"? I always thought camels had a couple of "toes," at least - but it doesn't have a "hoof" to be parted, is that the idea?
I also never knew "the hare" was unclean - does that mean they can't eat rabbits, or did "hare" mean something different? Rabbits certainly don't have hooves, but they do have "toes." Sheesh. Those wacky dietary laws.

Back to my original point. Are those prohibitions not connected to a cloven-footed devil, or did the Jews think him a ruminant?

The Devil and pitchforks.

In Dante's Inferno, one of the circles had souls who committed fraud in boiling pitch.
The devils surronding that circles had long pitchforks. A soul had to hide deep in the burning pitch, suffering more, or a devil would spear any soul who was too close to the surface, than the devils would tear that soul to pieces. Also very painful.

Anyway, that's my understanding of where the pitchfork for the devil comes from.

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Maureen Lacey

The translations leave something to be desired; from Leviticus, in order for an animal to be kosher (fit for eating), it must (a) have cloven hoofs AND (b) chew the cud. The distinction between cloven-footed and cloven-hoofed is in the English, methinks, although I don't have my Hebrew bible handy at the moment.

Leviticus then cites examples of animals that do one but not the other. The pig has cloven hoofs but does not chew the cud. The camel chews its cud but doesn't have cloven hoofs. The explanation of the hare is a bit bizzare, I will confirm later tonight, but my recollection is that because the hare chews food and stores it in the little pouch in its mouth, it could be thought to chew its cud, but clearly didn't have cloven hoofs. The Biblical writers did not have the intricate knowledge of animal anatomy that we have today.

Some animals, like the horse, has neither cloven hoofs nor chews its cud; the Bible text doesn't bother to list such examples, they are obviously not kosher, since they meet neither criteria.

Sheep, goats, cows are the primary kosher animals. Interestingly, the giraffe would also be kosher, but it is impossible to slaughter it in the prescribed manner. In any case, goats were certainly kosher, so the image of satan-as-goat would not relate to the non-kosherness of the goat. Also, as was noted, the image of Satan as goat is a late development, by Christianity, long after Paul discarded the Jewish dietary laws.

Confirming what I posted earlier. A better translation of Leviticus 11:3-4 might be:
"Any animals that has true hoofs, with clefts through the hoofs, and that chews the cud, such you may eat. The following, however, of those that either chew the cud or have true hoofs, you shall not eat..."

The "rock badger" is better translated as daman or Syrian hyrax, a small mammal. It does not actually chew its cud, but it gives that impression because it has protrusions in its stomach that suggest the stomach has compartments, like true rumninants.

The hare cited here is actually a rodent. It is not a ruminant, but gives the impression of being one because it munches its food so noticably.

I'm quoting from Commentary on Leviticus by Baruch Levine, a JPS publication.

Thanks, Dex, for illuminating that for me. I'm still not convinced I'm totally wrong (why doesn't that surprise you?) but I will take yours (and Cecil's) word for it, pending more investigation on my part.

Anyone know a good Reb in Chicago that will help this goy out?

[Tribal_Lion]

Hello all,
I just wanted to clarify this for you (I know it's an old subject, but I actually know the answer to this one). The image of the goat as Satan was actually first created by Eliphas Levi, a 19th century occultist. His actual intent was to illustrate the Baphomet, the pagan image that the Knights Templar were accused (by most accounts, falsely) of worshiping. He was also the first person to illustrate the inverted pentagram as a symbol of Satan (much as the inverted cross is used). If you look at many of the illustrations of the goat-headed devil, you will notice it fits in the inverted pentagram, the Horns being the upper points, the ears being the Horizontal points & the goatee being the lower point (pointing to hell). Since this Baphomet (believed by some to be a corruption of the Moslem prophet "Mahomet" or in English Mohammed, more bunk!) is a "Pagan" diety & fit so well into (what was believed to be) the devil's pentagram, it's image was adopted as the image of Lucifer himself. In all actuality, the reality of Satan's appearance would be much more sinister: "the Devil will appear as an Angel of light." -II Cor 11:14. Why would someone who is a great deceiver appear as such an obvious atrocity? Anyway, if anyone is interested, here is a web page that describes the Baphomet in a bit more detail: http://www.templarhistory.com/baphomet.html.
Hope this helps!

[Irishman]

Hi, Tribal_Lion. This is an old column, predating the "include a link to the column" rule. So I will add a convenient link:

Why is Satan often shown as having goatlike features?

You will note that several of the respondents mention things explicitly stated by Cecil in the column - a prime example of why we have the "link" rule.

Welcome.

[Tribal_Lion]

Oops,that is a good rule to have. That's what happens when newbies like me get so excited because they know an answer that they skip the rules & go strait for the gabbing! I will now don my DUNCE hat & retire to the corner to read the rules. BTW, thank you for taking care of thatr for me & setting me strait. It is much appreciated.

-TL

[Irishman]

No sweat. Heck, sometimes us oldtimers get so wrapped up we forget, too.