What's Next, Tri-Polar?

[Monalisa9]

Is it my imagination or does it seem that every other person these days is suffering from 'Bi-polar Disorder'? As I understand it, manic-depressive syndrome is an extremely rare condition, but almost everyone I speak to has a kid on lithium, or has a friend on it, or whatever. I seems as thought his condition has become the new 'epidemic'.
It is certainly easier, and, I suspect, more profitable, to prescribe expensive drugs for an individual who was formerly known as 'moody'. What is up with this, and does anyone know about the effects of lithium or related medicines on an individual who does not really need them?

[friedo]

There are certainly psychological problems that are over-diagnosed. Bi-polar, depression and attention deficit disorder seem to be among them. But because there are people who convince their docs to give them drugs they don't need doesn't mean that those conditions are any less valid or not real.

[RickJay]

Gosh, I totally agree! You're so right... just reading your post made me happy that someone thinks the same way I do, wow! I'm gonna write a 40-page thesis on what you've suggested! I'm starting right now!

Well... maybe I won't. I'm not very good at writing essays. I suck at it, in fact. I'm totally worthless, and I know you hate me 'cause everyone hates me. Why should I bother writing an essay? I'll just screw it up.

But then I'll have the rest of the day free... all RIGHT! I can do all kinds of cool stuff! I'll go shopping and buy all kinds of nice things! Then I'll play some video games! And volunteer at the Humane Society! Woo hoo, this'll be the best day EVER!

But... I'm allergic to cats. Oh, there you go, I've screwed up again. I can't even help CATS, how can I help PEOPLE, like that time 17 years ago when Mom yelled at me for breaking a glass. She probably doesn't love me. Why would anyone love me? I'm useless. I'm a turd. I'll just give up hope now.

Turd... ha ha, that's a funny word! Ha ha ha HA HA HAAAAA!

[Monalisa9]

All right, all right, I get the idea. But my diagnosis still follows...you're moody as hell!

[ivylass]

I have a close family member who is bi-polar.

When this person is not on their meds, the behavior can be out of control. I have gone through DUI's, attempted suicide, and rampant spending sprees with this individual.

So, yes, it does exist, and no, it's not fun. The meds have to be monitored to make sure the levels are correct. Some meds have to be subsituted with others.

I have seen what happens when this person is off their meds. It is not fun.

So before you go blanketing everything with Overdiagnosing Syndrome, do a bit of research.

[Ethilrist]

or maybe

[Witch]

If you knew what it was like to suffer from manic depression you wouldn't be so quick to make light of it.
Your ignorance and cruelty astounds me.

[Monalisa9]

Of course there are people who really do have this syndrome, but I do not think that my friend's son, for instance , has it at all. He is spoiled, and that is why he has a fit if anything goes even mildly wrong in his life. If you had carefully read my post, you would see that I do not think that everyone who is diagnosed with this disorder is a malingerer, but rather that doctors are exploiting the illness.

[Ice Wolf]

Some information. There's a lot out there on this, and sources agree that manic-depression is not rare by any means.

I second what witch posted. Turning references to any mental illness into just another reason to have a huge joke-fest, guys, is stupid and way beneath most of you. I've seen what this condition can do to wonderful, brilliant, talented people -- it is no damn joke.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Ah, spoiled. Now there's a valid diagnosis!

[Colibri]

I have a good friend, whom I've known for more than 30 years, since we were in college.

Even in college, it was obvious something was wrong. I thought at the time she showed every sign of being manic-depressive. But she didn't see a psychiatrist about it until she was in her late 20s.

But after that it took her more than 10 years to finally get the correct diagnosis of bipolar disorder. She finally got medication and is doing a lot better now.

Dunno what's going on now, but I believe in the past bipolar disease was very much underdiagnosed.

And I agree, making fun of mental illness is in poor taste.

[tiny ham]

On behalf of my sister, aunt and several other close family members who have been through hell, I pray that you never have to find out first hand how awful manic depression and bi polar disorder can be.

[auntie em]

I, too, have a good friend with bi-polar disorder, but I'll be the first to admit that I don't know SQUAT about it (except that my friend hated the Lithium--she said it made her entire personality disappear).

So while I might be inclined to agree that the OP does come off as a little too glib, there's still an opportunity to educate people here.

So my question is, at what point, when you have bipolar disorder, do you say, "OK, so I'm going to be on meds for the rest of my life", and at what point is it still a viable goal to function without the meds? I realize that it depends on the severity of the case, but it also seems like sheer determination is a factor here, too.

Thoughts?

[tiny ham]

auntie em...

a disorder becomes a disorder when it affects your day to day living. My sister had to drop out of college, because she'd wake up so depressed or enraged that she couldn't even go to class. Or she'd be so manic that she'd go nuts on X and alcohol and stay out until five in the morning...She couldn't concentrate, would go from not eating at all to binging...every time we talked to her it was a roll of the dice, would she be weeping and swearing, screaming at us, or chatty and happy to hear from us.

And DETERMINATION doesn't cure you of diabetes, just as it can't cure a chemical imbalance in your brain. My sister and I are both medicated for different imbalances and they've made an incredible change in both of our lives.

[ivylass]

You said, quote,

As I understand it, manic-depressive syndrome is an extremely rare condition

As I said, I know of a close family member with it, and I strongly suspect another family member is undiagnosed.

Are you perhaps confusing ADHD with bi-polar disorder? Because I could agree with you there, that ADHD is overdiagnosed.

You say your friend's son is spoiled. I doubt you will find a doctor who will prescribe lithium for a child unless they need it. It's not like popping sugar pills, you know. We're talking about medicine that alters the chemical balance in the brain.

[Guinastasia]

I don't know about bi-polar disorder, but I have OCD, and I make jokes about it all the time. It helps a lot.

[ivylass]

Originally posted by auntie em
So my question is, at what point, when you have bipolar disorder, do you say, "OK, so I'm going to be on meds for the rest of my life",

We're not talking about moods. We're talking about a chemical imbalance in the brain that makes the person suffer wild mood swings.

It's just like taking cholesterol medicine to regulate the levels in your blood.

And the insidious thing about this disease is that you feel bad, you take the pills, you feel better, you think you don't need the pills anymore, you stop taking them, you feel bad...ad infinitum until it clicks in that you have to take the pills for the rest of your life.

[Epimetheus]

I was diagnosed with mild Bi-polar affective disorder. I refused treatment. I have learned to live with it, so It cannot be that severe. However it does effect my life quite a bit- starting a project and thinking it is going to be the best thing ever in my life, and sometimes a day, or weeks later I drop it because I lose confidence and lack energy.

I don't think it is something to laugh about either. Especially for those that have severe cases.

[AHunter3]

OP:

What is up with this, and does anyone know about the effects of lithium or related medicines on an individual who does not really need them?

If you held me at gunpoint and said I had to take psychiatric drugs but I could choose which ones, I'd rather be on lithium than most psych drugs. It can be dangerous, even lethal, if you overshoot the "therapeutic" levels of lithium in your blood, but aside from that it doesn't do permanent damage. It is also not physiologically addictive, although most of the folks I've known who've had to detox from it say that it's psychologically addictive.

The body tends to confuse it with sodium under certain circumstances, so it effectively displaces sodium to an extent for those functions, and that, IIRC, is how it works.

[Witch]

I don't mind taking my meds. 15 seconds of my day to be a fully functioning human being after way too many years of needless suffering because manic depression is UNDER DIAGNOSED? I Don't mind at all.

[auntie em]

Originally posted by jarbabyj
auntie em...

a disorder becomes a disorder when it affects your day to day living. My sister had to drop out of college, because she'd wake up so depressed or enraged that she couldn't even go to class. Or she'd be so manic that she'd go nuts on X and alcohol and stay out until five in the morning...She couldn't concentrate, would go from not eating at all to binging...every time we talked to her it was a roll of the dice, would she be weeping and swearing, screaming at us, or chatty and happy to hear from us.

And DETERMINATION doesn't cure you of diabetes, just as it can't cure a chemical imbalance in your brain. My sister and I are both medicated for different imbalances and they've made an incredible change in both of our lives.

Thanks, jar. That makes sense. And I'm certainly not one of those people who pooh-poohs clinical depression as something that can be cured by determination and a day at the spa.

The reason I'm asking, I guess, is that while my (aforementioned) friend is planning to take the meds for the rest of her life, she gets crap from a therapist friend of hers about how therapy (in which she is currently not involved) could help her forego the meds. Bullshit, says she.

But I know another person (though not well) who suffers from some sort of anxiety disorder that got so bad that she didn't leave her apartment for a year. Eventually, she got treatment (including medication) and got better. However, when she got married and decided to have a child, she busted her ass to function without the medication, because she didn't want to have it in her system during her pregnancy.

And I know yet a third person who is off and on medication for anxiety, but does make it a goal to function without it whenever possible.

Different illnesses, I know, but I'm wondering if you're somehow made to feel, when you get your diagnosis, that your goal should be to become less dependent on medication, or what? I mean, for example, some people with low-grade diabetes (to use your example) are told by their docs that they should try to control it via their diet, so that medication won't be necessary. So is it like that with some bi-polar diagnoses, does it depend on the physician's particular theories, or what?

I hope I'm not being intrusive; I'm just curious.

[World Eater]

Not with or against the OP, but everyone theses days does seem to have some fucking type of disorder.

Me? I thought being happy sometimes, and being down sometimes was a part of life. Guess I have a lot to learn.

[sailor]

The OP is about whether There is an *overdiagnosing* of something, not whether all diagnosis are bad or whether the condition is non existent. I can't see why everybody is so enraged with the OP. Maybe some of you have missed your medication?

[tiny ham]

World Eater: being happy sometimes and being down sometimes IS a part of life...but when you go two weeks without getting out of bed or talking to your spouse or bursting in to tears at work over a misspelled thank you letter...it becomes more. Do some research.

Auntie Em:

I am on medication and have been for about two years now. TWO? Wow. I'm trying to wean myself off of it, but only because I'm trying to get pregnant. In my case, my doctor prescribed medication right away just to get me out of my house and back to work and the gym and such, and THEN she said i needed to go to therapy. And I did, for a while. I'll admit, I quit because it was too hard, but while I did it, it helped.

I DON'T feel I'll be on medication for the rest of my life, but the medication took away some of the worst aspects like fatigue and misery and anxiety, so I could focus on getting better. Slow going, but I'm making progress!

My sister, who is bi polar, is as well, back in school and down to one pill a day.

[betenoir]

Originally posted by ivylass
You say your friend's son is spoiled. I doubt you will find a doctor who will prescribe lithium for a child unless they need it. It's not like popping sugar pills, you know. We're talking about medicine that alters the chemical balance in the brain.

Oh really?

A doctor had no problem prescribing lithium for my SO when he was getting over his chemical dependency. Yeah, he had lots of problems. But not bi-polar disorder and not anything lithium would help. But he had it prescibed for him anyway.

What the fuck is wrong (and this is directed at almost everybody in this thread) with questioning whether something isn't over- (ie mis-) diagnoised?

How is this making light of the real illness?

[Witch]

auntie em...you can do well enough that your doc will consider taking you off your meds gradually and seeing how you do. There are different types of bipolar disorder, and within these types you can have different levels of severity. Every case is different. Some of us will go from manic to depressive very quickly (days or weeks), others it's much longer. Some tend to be manic more ofen, others depressed. Some have features of psychosis, others do not. It's a very broad spectrum, and therefore treatments vary widely.

[tiny ham]

betenoir, because the OP leads to posts like World Eater's, who doesn't even appear to understand what clinical depression or bi polar disorder ARE.

[SpaceDog]

Originally posted by World Eater
Me? I thought being happy sometimes, and being down sometimes was a part of life. Guess I have a lot to learn.

I don't know a lot about this and don't have any of these disorders, but I've read stuff here and there. As I understand it unless you've been clinically depressed it's difficult to understand the difference between just 'sad' and 'depressed'. Therefore non-sufferers often judge people as weak, or similar, for giving in to these emotions.

Quick bit about myself, as I said I don't suffer from these disorders however I can be quiet a moody person. People have said to me more than once that I should maybe get checked out by a doctor and see if I could take something. I've always refused because a) I don't believe I have one of these disorders -- I certainly don't score high on the checklists, and b) it doesn't effect my life. I'm just moody and prone to self-indulgence at times. I believe there are people far worse off than me and over the years I've learned that there is a difference between moody and bi-polar -- and I always try and remember that.

Having said that I believe that there are some cases of people on medication who probably don't need it, or who have been wrongly diagnosed. However if it's improving their quality of life who am I to argue, and we shouldn't jump to conclusions about people. If someone says "I'm bi-polar" or whatever then take them at face value and trust that what they experience may just be something that you can't understand.

Of course we should keep an eye on the doctors as well and make sure that they're doing their job -- and also look for different treatments for various things. It's possible that it's being over diagnosed (or even that people are claiming they have it to be 'different') but pointing the finger of doubt at the patients is going to do more harm than good.

And as a quick aside to AHunter3 if I recall correctly you have views about medication like this, I was wondering if you could tell me why. If this thread isn't the time or the place then that's cool too -- I've just been meaning to talk to you about it for a while.

SD

Who's wondering if 'finger of doubt' is a phrase or not.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Tri-polar? Nah, I prefer the warmer climes ::rimshot::

But seriously, I used to not respect psychological disorders. I thought they were just excuses..... until I started a self destructive streak in my mid twenties. I didn't know what I was doing wrong, but my life was out of control. I just didn't care about anything - job, family, girlfriend - nothing. Finally, I figured it out. I'm a mild clinical depressive. I tried therapists for a while, but never found one worth a damn. I swore I would never go on the drugs, as I thought they were over-perscribed and possibly dangerous. I had also seen what they did to people, how people I knew changed when they were on zoloft or whatever. It was not a good change either.

Life got pretty bad there for awhile because therapy wasn't working. Finally I said "screw it" and went to see a doctor. After discussing the different ones, we finally settled on Welbutrin (I'm not bipolar so I don't need the heavier prozacs, zolofts, etc). I got so antsy on the stuff; I thought I was going to vibrate apart. I stopped taking it for awhile and life got bad again. Finally, I settled on a half dose a day (300 mg once a day) and that seems perfect.

Drugs can work for many people, but many people are on the wrong ones. The doc could have put me on Paxil for depression. I would have been a freaking nutcase if she had, and I think this is the problem. These types of drugs work, but you have to be very, very careful to find the right one and the right dosage. Many times they make mental health worse, and the patient becomes a serial pill taker, trying one after another. The patient can suffer for years as the different drugs only seem to trade one disorder for another, and this may be where the drugs get the reputation of being harmful. More people should realize that there is no magic bullet.

I guess what I am saying Monalisa, is before you skoff at people with psychiatric disorders or the drugs used to treat them, say to yourself "there but for the grace of God go I". It is possible that they are just moody and the drugs are unecessary, but you have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

That all said, the over-prescription of ritalin is a real problem. ADHD exists, but the criteria used to diagnose it are laughably broad and could be applied to just about all children. It's a crime to drug kids just because they stare out the window or cut up in class.

[Colibri]

Originally posted by auntie em
So my question is, at what point, when you have bipolar disorder, do you say, "OK, so I'm going to be on meds for the rest of my life", and at what point is it still a viable goal to function without the meds? I realize that it depends on the severity of the case, but it also seems like sheer determination is a factor here, too.

Thoughts?

Like you say, each case is different. But I would say determination is much, much less a factor than the severity of the illness. Determination isn't going to help much except maybe in mild cases. I think determination is much more helpful in terms of sticking to your treatment, rather than trying to function without it.

My friend had it pretty bad - suicide attempts, drinking to kill the pain of the down cycle, job problems. She loved it when she first was prescibed lithium - personally, I think it may have saved her life.

I'm not sure exactly what meds she's on now, but she recognizes she'll probably be on something the rest of her life. Of course, she'd rather not have to, but the last thing she wants to do is go back to the living hell she was in before.

And she's doing very well now. Ironically enough, she's now a mental health counselor.

[Ethilrist]

I would like to apologize for my hastily-typed response. I was lured by the passing excitement of the new smiley and posted an unacceptably insensitive attempt at a response to the OP.

[tiny ham]

[auntie em]

Originally posted by Colibri
And she's doing very well now. Ironically enough, she's now a mental health counselor.

I don't think that's ironic. I personally would probably rather be counseled by somebody who's had some experience. Y'know? Anyway, it's cool that she got herself together enough to help somebody else out.

As for the other replies to my questions, thanks! I'm getting that there's not really a definitive answer, but it just seems to me like even those people I know who have taken medication for various disorders (depression, anxiety, etc.) still attach enough of a stigma to it that they

(a) make it a goal to get off the meds, and

(b) kind of look down upon those who have no intention of even trying to function without the meds.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into the motivations of these people, but just the other day I was talking to a friend, who's been on depression medication before, about his brother, who is currently having some problems with depression (and who has also taken medication before). "Is he taking anything?" I asked.

"No," said my friend, "He's dealing with it my way." (The implication here was that this was the best way.)

"Which is . . . ?" I asked.

"Just don't think about it," was the answer I got. "Just force yourself to keep going, and eventually it'll pass."

Now I realize that the brother must be functioning relatively well--still making it to work or school, still communicating with friends, and whatnot--but it's this attitude on my friend's part that was making me wonder if Conventional Wisdom dictates that you're a wuss if you stay dependent upon medication.

Anyway, I'll shut up.

Thanks for combating a little of my ignorance.

[World Eater]

Originally posted by jarbabyj
betenoir, because the OP leads to posts like World Eater's, who doesn't even appear to understand what clinical depression or bi polar disorder ARE.

Oh fuck off, I'm well aware of impact these conditions hold on peoples lives. Don't be so quick to assume what I might or might not know.

I'm wonder if meds or helping people more or hurting them more.

[Witch]

World Eater, if it wasn't for Lamactil, Topomax, and Wellbutrin, I would not be sitting here typing this right now.

[tiny ham]

If you know the gravity of the situation, why would you make such a flippant remark as this:

Me? I thought being happy sometimes, and being down sometimes was a part of life. Guess I have a lot to learn.

[World Eater]

Originally posted by Witch
World Eater, if it wasn't for Lamactil, Topomax, and Wellbutrin, I would not be sitting here typing this right now.

Thats good, they have obviously helped you live a more productive life, and thats definitely something to be happy about.

[World Eater]

Originally posted by jarbabyj
If you know the gravity of the situation, why would you make such a flippant remark as this:

It wasn't flippant.

More is coming, just give me a few minutes here.

[Jackmannii]

I dunno about tripolar disorder, but I'd wager Pete Townshend is feeling bloody quadrophenic right about now.




We needed a smirking smiley?

[tiny ham]

Originally posted by World Eater


More is coming, just give me a few minutes here. [/

Ah cripes. I'm in trouble again.

[bordelond]

Originally posted by Colibri
Like you say, each case is different. But I would say determination is much, much less a factor than the severity of the illness. Determination isn't going to help much except maybe in mild cases.

Here's something I've always wondered about:

For the sake of argument, let's apply a 0-100 scale to the severity of clinical depression or bipolarism.

Let's say that being determined to "gut it out" and not depend on treatment and/or meds is sufficient to overcome symptoms of CD & BP of severity level 30. Would it be likewise sufficient for severity 31? 35? 40? 50? How is this line determined?

In the case of someone not getting out of bed for two weeks ... let's rewind fourteen days to the first day someone couldn't get out of bed. Presumably, the day before, that someone could get out of bed. What changed in the intervening 24 hours? Environmental change, or something internal, or both? Could a doctor hypothetically draw blood or brain fluid from a) the day before not being able to get out of bed and b) the day after and detect differences in the two samples?

Also ... can "the mind" control the brain chemicals? Does environment affect brain chemicals or do brain chemicals affect perception and response to environment?

Can any human become clinically depressed? How might this occur in previously non-depressed people? Can environment alone do it? Can it be from a random brain chemical foul-up? Can CD or BP be artifically induced (an especially cruel experiment)?

Are some people naturally immune to CD & BP ... the brain-chemical equivalent of 20-20 vision?

Do CD & BP occur in simians? Other mammals? Is this determinable?

How well is all of this understood?

Ummm ... sorry ... I know that's a lot of questions for the Pit. Thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this rather confusing, hard-to-grasp subject.

[Greywolf73]

I also know someone (my ex-sister-in-law) who is severely mentally ill and is bi-polar among other things. When she's on her meds, she is able to function normally in society but when she goes off her meds it doesn't take her long to spin out of control. Off her meds she is highly likely to wind up in a mental hospital (7 times in the last 2 1/2 years) and engage in unbelievably self-destructive behavior.

So in response to the OP's question, yes, medication does work when taken as prescribed.
And seeing the effects of bi-polar disorder firsthand, I can also guarantee you that bipolar disorder is very real and not as "rare" as you think it is.

[Ethilrist]

Originally posted by jarbabyj

Yep. That's how it starts.

[World Eater]

No, not in trouble, Just trying to explain my thoughts better.

[OpalCat]

Originally posted by Monalisa9
Is it my imagination or does it seem that every other person these days is suffering from 'Bi-polar Disorder'? As I understand it, manic-depressive syndrome is an extremely rare condition,

And what led you to "understand" this? Do tell me.

[OpalCat]

Originally posted by auntie em
but it also seems like sheer determination is a factor here, too.

I'm going to restrain myself from saying how I really feel about this statement.

[bordelond]

Originally posted by OpalCat
I'm going to restrain myself from saying how I really feel about this statement.

IYO, is determination not ever a factor, even in mild cases?

From what I'm reading here, it seems that varying levels of severity of CD and BP truly do exist, as opposed to a "got it or you don't" system.

Perhaps it is a matter of interpretation -- do some psychiatrists hold that if you can "will" yourslef out of apparent CD or BP symptoms, that perhaps you never HAD real CD or BP? Is there variation among the opinions psychiatrists (and research scientists, etc.) on this point?

[auntie em]

Opal, as I stated before, I'm not implying that anybody with clinical depression can just put on a happy face and make it go away. Far from it. My point was to ask basically what bordelond just asked (only much more articulately), based on the fact that some people I know seem determined to function without meds. That's all, dude.

[OpalCat]

Originally posted by World Eater
Me? I thought being happy sometimes, and being down sometimes was a part of life. Guess I have a lot to learn.

Fuck. You.
Let's try something like this:
I try to get out of my chair and the arm catches on my keyboard tray. Before I even know what has happened, I've thrown my desk chair across the room. My husband tries to calm me down and I scream at him to fuck off. Then I go upstairs and cry for an hour and tell myself what a worthless person I am and how could anyone ever like me, and this is why I have no friends, and blah blah blah. Then I fall asleep for 16 hours.

The next day I'm better. In fact, I have a lot of energy. In fact, I stay up on the computer for 3 days without sleep. Or maybe I go somewhere with someone and I start talking so fast that they can't even understand me.

Have you ever had the experience of feeling completely out of control? I've been able to control myself at times by going catatonic for hours at a time. Totally awake but not moving, barely blinking, not speaking, not acknowledging anything. This is the only way I can make sure that I won't take a knife to my arm (lots of scars there btw) or start beating my head against the wall.

And speaking of that... ever bashed your head against the corner of the wall so hard that your scalp split open and blood ran down your face from under your hair, and yet felt no pain at all? All because someone made a joke at your expense? Or how about suddenly having the strength, as a 16 year old, 5'2", 115lb girl, to grab your father and throw him up against the wall?

Or.. oh oh how about this? Running into the woods in your nightgown, in the rain, in the middle of the night, and staying there for hours until the police find you... because you had a minor argument with a friend? Or how about running off into the desert and hiding under a bit of desert scrub for hours crying and screaming for god-only-knows what reason?

What... you haven't had these experiences? But...but... they're just a part of life, right?

I've been on medication for 8-9 years and will be for the rest of my life. I have relapses when I miss taking it for a couple of days, but it has saved my life--quite literally.

You say that you weren't being flippant and that you have more coming... well it had better be pretty fucking good because what you said was... well I think I've expressed my feelings about it already.

Witch: you're on Lamictal, too? I take it with Celexa but I'm switching to Welbutrin this spring. How much is your dose? Mine is 200mg/day. People get confused when I tell them... they ask "you are epileptic??"

[blowero]

I've had two close friends who are bi-polar, and a third friend who I strongly suspect is bi-polar, but doesn't want to get treatment. It's a VERY serious illness, and no, you can't just make it go away through sheer willpower. One of the problems is that people may not seek treatment unless they are in their depressed cycle. The "up" cycle often includes feelings of euphoria in addition to paranoia, so they often feel like they don't need help and react against anyone suggesting that they do. One of the things I found out from knowing these people is that the illness goes way beyond just feeling "happy" and "sad". It can also include true psychotic episodes. It's no joke.