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Old 03-08-2018, 03:26 AM
MetalHeader MetalHeader is offline
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New Research Shows That Time Travel Is Mathematically Possible

Physicists have developed a new mathematical model that shows how time travel is theoretically possible. They used Einstein’s Theory of General Relativity as a springboard for their hypothetical device, which they call a Traversable Acausal Retrograde Domain in Space-time (TARDIS).

Read more:
http://bit.ly/2FyqiWV

What do you think about time travel? I personally think that it's quite possible after reading this.
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Old 03-08-2018, 05:58 AM
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Wishful thinking.
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:20 AM
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Indeed, there is no future to visit. I adore- ADORE - time travel stories. Just love them and am not overly fussy about the science involved. I readily embrace whatever flimsy “ framework “ that allows for time travel in works of fiction. It’s just my thing.

That said, I also embrace rigorous science in the real world. There is no future because many animals including Homo sapiens are endowed with free will.

I can take the W train to 34th Street/ Herald Square in New York City. Walk up the steps to the concourse level and turn left, walk the hallway to the turnstiles and exit one of them. As I turn right and head towards the 35th & 6th Avenue exit stairs, I encounter a 22 year old Latina with a baby in a large and complex stroller. As is my wont, I offer to grab the front rail and help carry the stroller and baby up with her. She’s appreciative and we work out way up, taking our steps carefully and I slide the stroller to the sidewalk, accepting her thanks with a smile.

I walk forward, past the coffee/ bagel street cart always parked right there on the curb. As I walk past the cart, an Uber car swerves violently to avoid a cyclist, rams into the cart which shoves into me as it is driven over the sidewalk into the side of the building, crushing my spine and fracturing my skull. I’m dead in less than 5 minutes from the damage. Debris strikes the mother, slicing through her right arm deeply but not mortally. The baby is unscathed.

Except that I’m aware that I’m out of breath mints that morning and stop at the newsstand on the concourse level and in less than 120 seconds I transact. Pick out some peppermint Altoids, pay and walk towards the turnstiles.

Those 120 seconds keep me underground. I don’t die. The woman with the stroller is waiting at the bottom hoping for help. She and the baby are fine.

There is no predestined future to visit. And if there is no predestined future to visit, how can we go back in time for, say, 24 hours and then effort to return to a future that cannot possibly exist because no future is established and set in stone. Or foam core. Or mush. I can no more go back in time than I can go forward in time.

Because while the past is an established framework, I cannot for one moment believe that the construction of a time machine as detailed in that article could return me home.

If I cannot return home, because there is no future to return to, how could I exist to go back in time in the first place?

A lovely theoretical construct. I call bullshit, however....




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Old 03-08-2018, 07:49 AM
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More than "shows" it looks like a mathematical model that, devoid of any real life restrictions, can the the desired result.
"Bending the universe" and "faster than light" are no proof.
Also, I'd be supremely bummed if the scientists who actually do time travel to it with a machine called TARDIS.
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:52 AM
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My view is that time travel is scientifically interesting either way. Either it's possible, which has all sorts of possible ramifications; or it's impossible and whatever natural laws make it impossible will have their own interesting aspects.

My personal suspicion is that it's impossible. However the fact that theoreticians keep coming up with ideas on how to do it that have to be shot down reminds me of the period before the discovery of the laws of themodynamics. Back then people kept coming up with ideas for perpetual motion machines that had to be analyzed to show why they wouldn't work, because the laws that described why they would work hadn't been found yet.

I suspect that there's some as yet undiscovered physical laws that outright forbid time travel; probably with all sorts of interesting ramifications of their own. But until they are discovered people will keep coming up with ideas on how to do it that look possible at first.

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Originally Posted by Cartooniverse View Post
There is no predestined future to visit. And if there is no predestined future to visit, how can we go back in time for, say, 24 hours and then effort to return to a future that cannot possibly exist because no future is established and set in stone. Or foam core. Or mush. I can no more go back in time than I can go forward in time.
It seems to be a common scientific view that the passage of time is an illusion, and both the past and future are and always have existed and been fixed.
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:54 AM
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There is no future because many animals including Homo sapiens are endowed with free will.
Free will is an illusion. Just because you're trapped in the present doesn't mean there aren't events out there waiting to happen. You just haven't caught up to them yet.
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:54 AM
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Nice story, 'Verse but it all rests on the assumption that you have free will. There are those who disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SciAm
[P]sychologists widely agree that unconscious processes exert a powerful influence over our choices. In one study, for example, participants solved word puzzles in which the words were either associated with rudeness or politeness. Those exposed to rudeness words were much more likely to interrupt the experimenter in a subsequent part of the task. When debriefed, none of the subjects showed any awareness that the word puzzles had affected their behavior. That scenario is just one of many in which our decisions are directed by forces lurking beneath our awareness.

Thus, ironically, because our subconscious is so powerful in other ways, we cannot truly trust it when considering our notion of free will. We still do not know conclusively that our choices are determined. Our intuition, however, provides no good reason to think that they are not. If our instinct cannot support the idea of free will, then we lose our main rationale for resisting the claim that free will is an illusion.
Now, I don't buy the argument the philosophers are putting forth* but I can't be sure my objections are caused by what they are saying.

OTOH, even if the OP's article is correct, there are some non-trivial materials and engineering obstacles to overcome.

*I have looked askance at the field of philosophy ever since in my intro book, the author took a page and a half to say you can't always believe what people tell you. Logorrhea runs rampant among its practitioners.
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:05 AM
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That said, I also embrace rigorous science in the real world. There is no future because many animals including Homo sapiens are endowed with free will.
Here's the problem with your story. Suppose for the sake of argument that the future is absolutely predetermined -- that the state of every neuron in your brain was known, and in the brains of everyone else on earth, the state of every single air and water molecule and every bit of matter on earth and in space around it -- suppose that all those things were known, such that the outcome of your story could have been predicted with absolute certainty.

Suppose that this were the case, instead of the "free will" that you believe in. How could you possibly tell the difference? How could you, a mere biological creature capable only of subjective judgments, tell whether or not everything you were about to do, and the future of the entire universe, was already predetermined?

The question of a predetermined future could be an interesting question at the intersection of philosophy and information theory were it not for the fact that quantum uncertainty introduces unknowable true randomness at sufficiently small scales. But "free will" is just a subjective illusion of consciousness, not a governing principle of the physical world.

BTW, I share your love of time travel stories -- and good sci-fi in general.
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:37 AM
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Can someone un-bit-ly that link? I'm not clicking on a disguised link from someone I don't know.
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Cartooniverse View Post
That said, I also embrace rigorous science in the real world. There is no future because many animals including Homo sapiens are endowed with free will.
This is a claim unsupported by objective evidence.

That said, I'm not onboard with the OP either, albeit for a different reason; "mathematically possible" is, well, wishful thinking. It's mathematically possible I could lead the American League in home runs this year.
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:57 AM
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This isn't new. There have been several theoretical models of time travel derived in the very same way, by finding loopholes in Relativity. But none have been practicable in any way.
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:07 AM
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It's hard to tell from a vague layman's summary like that... but it looks like all they did was to take the Alcubierre metric and Lorentz-transformed it. Which is something trivially easy to do, once you have the Alcubierre metric, which has been known for a quarter of a century. And similar things can be done with any other proposed FTL mechanism, some of which have been known for far longer (wormholes, for instance, have been known for over a century). There's nothing new here.

The catch with all of these "time machine" designs (or, equivalently, FTL drive designs) is that they all require the use of matter with negative mass. We've never found any evidence for the existence of such matter, and if it were possible, it should naively be very easy to produce and detect it, so the absence of evidence probably can, in this case, be taken as evidence of absence.


[Moderating]
Also, since this thread is about science fact, rather than about fictional depictions of time machines, it'll fit better in GQ than in CS. Moving.
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:16 AM
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Reported the OP as a spammer.
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:38 AM
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I am also unhappy with the OP.

I am not a big fan at all at indirect links such as URL shorteners in this context.

Just put in the original link!

I am very hesitant to click on a link that I can't see the full URL directly. Especially from a new poster.
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:51 AM
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Putting free will aside, the question of whether the universe is predetermined also depends on whether or not God does, in fact, play with dice. If the universe does indeed feature a random element at the quantum level, then there's no such thing as "the" future. A billion billion billion different futures, maybe, but not just one.
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ftg View Post
I am not a big fan at all at indirect links such as URL shorteners in this context.

Just put in the original link!

I am very hesitant to click on a link that I can't see the full URL directly. Especially from a new poster.
There's a mechanism in Bit.ly to allow you to preview the URL : just add a + sign at the end of the short URL.

Here is the resolved link. I am not vouching for it, just providing it.

http://www.the-bored-ninja.tk/2018/0...ally-possible/
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:06 AM
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There's a mechanism in Bit.ly to allow you to preview the URL : just add a + sign at the end of the short URL.

Here is the resolved link. I am not vouching for it, just providing it.

http://www.the-bored-ninja.tk/2018/0...ally-possible/
Oh, look, it's the same "bored-ninja.tk" site as OP's last (locked) post.

Also, this news is not news. It's nearly a year old.
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:10 AM
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Thus spake Cartooniverse:

“Indeed, there is no future to visit. I adore- ADORE - time travel stories. Just love them and am not overly fussy about the science involved. I readily embrace whatever flimsy “ framework “ that allows for time travel in works of fiction. It’s just my thing.”

Have you seen Triangle? Not a big budget film but kind of a cool TT movie. One of my faves.
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:12 AM
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Thus spake Cartooniverse:

“Indeed, there is no future to visit. I adore- ADORE - time travel stories. Just love them and am not overly fussy about the science involved. I readily embrace whatever flimsy “ framework “ that allows for time travel in works of fiction. It’s just my thing.”

Have you seen Triangle? Not a big budget film but kind of a cool TT movie. One of my faves.
Is it better than the first Bill & Ted film? That, to me, is the gold standard of time travel movies.

(I'm not kidding - it's a surprisingly rigorous film).
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:12 AM
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It's mathematically possible I could lead the American League in home runs this year.
Just to let you know I'm rooting for you!!!!!
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:35 AM
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The number of things that are mathematically possible is inconceivably large. That's no argument for actual existence or physical possibility.
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Oh, look, it's the same "bored-ninja.tk" site as OP's last (locked) post.
OK, I'm convinced.
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Old 03-08-2018, 11:03 AM
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What do you think about time travel? I personally think that it's quite possible after reading this.
"Rotating Cylinders and the Possibility of Global Causality Violation".

Mucking about in the timestream is never a good idea. You start with the best of intentions and end up destroying your star system, because Fate is a harsh and relentless bitch who does not like to be told what to do.

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Old 03-08-2018, 11:36 AM
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I'm traveling through time as I write this post. The secret is to maintain a steady pace into the future.
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Old 03-08-2018, 11:43 AM
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Suppose that this were the case, instead of the "free will" that you believe in. How could you possibly tell the difference? How could you, a mere biological creature capable only of subjective judgments, tell whether or not everything you were about to do, and the future of the entire universe, was already predetermined?
But I'm not actually sure that actual free will as opposed to the illusion of free will is actually required for contradiction. If I had a time machine the first experiment I would do would be to ro write the letter "A" on a piece of paper. I then would go back in time and tell myself what I had written, at which point the old me would write "B" on the paper, and proceed with the experiment. But when I go back and tell myself I wrote "B" I would poeceed to write "A", etc. Was "A" or "B" actually written? Bingo we have a causality paradox (and nobody's grandfather has to get killed.)

Now it could be because I had free will that I decide to be contrary in this way, or it could be because of the programming of my neurons. But I guarantee that this is what I would do. And because it is the obvious expriment, so would pretty much any other researcher who would develop time travel. Either through free will or because of their programming. So unless there is some cosmic gate keeper who is going to reprogram any brains to prevent them from acting this way (which in my opinion would be a bigger discovery than time travel itself), you still have to deal with the paradox.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 03-08-2018 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 03-08-2018, 12:14 PM
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Putting free will aside, the question of whether the universe is predetermined also depends on whether or not God does, in fact, play with dice. If the universe does indeed feature a random element at the quantum level, then there's no such thing as "the" future. A billion billion billion different futures, maybe, but not just one.
Why? The fact that a path is stochastic does not imply that all possible paths in the distribution actually occur. Many worlds is only one possible interpretation of QM.
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Old 03-08-2018, 12:40 PM
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We are all time travellers already, we are travelling through time together.
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Old 03-08-2018, 01:53 PM
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One possible resolution to the "Grandfather Paradox" is that any time you try to set up such a paradox, something happens (possibly with no apparent causal relationship to what you're doing) that prevents it. Maybe, for instance, you just happen to die of a brain aneurysm just as you're about to tell your previous self what you wrote. The aneurysm wasn't exactly caused by your time travel, but timelines where the aneurysm didn't occur simply don't exist.
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Old 03-08-2018, 01:54 PM
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We are all time travellers already, we are travelling through time together.
At a speed of one second per second
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:07 PM
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At a speed of one second per second
You can adjust your speed through time by adjusting your speed through space. The drawback is that it takes a lot of energy to adjust your speed through space enough to make much of a difference in your speed though time and you probably end up somewhere you don't want to be.
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Old 03-08-2018, 03:46 PM
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We are all time travellers already, we are travelling through time together.
That's very sage. How 'bout this one?
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Originally Posted by The Amazing Criswell
We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives.
But that's wrong, because physics says we may spend the rest of our lives someplace besides the future. Like the past, or Gary, Indiana.
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Old 03-08-2018, 04:38 PM
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That's very sage.
It's really more about thyme.
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Old 03-08-2018, 05:12 PM
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Also, I'd be supremely bummed if the scientists who actually do time travel to it with a machine called TARDIS.
Unless they reveal that they went back to the 60's and talked to some BBC writers.
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Old 03-08-2018, 05:14 PM
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What does it mean for something to be mathematically possible?
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Old 03-08-2018, 05:39 PM
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What does it mean for something to be mathematically possible?
I believe it means that the pertinent equations can be made to work for those conditions. For instance, we don't really know what happens inside a black hole, but the inversion of space and time is mathematically possible in the relevant Einstein field equations.
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:04 PM
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One possible resolution to the "Grandfather Paradox" is that any time you try to set up such a paradox, something happens (possibly with no apparent causal relationship to what you're doing) that prevents it. Maybe, for instance, you just happen to die of a brain aneurysm just as you're about to tell your previous self what you wrote. The aneurysm wasn't exactly caused by your time travel, but timelines where the aneurysm didn't occur simply don't exist.
I would argue that the causality paradox is much more fundamental than such macroscopic examples, and that in fact the introduction of any matter or energy whatsoever -- even a single quantum particle -- from the future into the past would, according to chaos theory, necessarily alter the future.

Which seems to mean that either time travel into the past is impossible, or one has to invoke "many worlds" -- literally the Everettian Many Worlds -- and say that any such travel changes the universe whose timeline the traveling entity -- whether person or thing -- inhabits. You can thus never return to the future from whence you came, but only to an unpredictably different one, because within the Many Worlds multiverse you are no longer in the same universe. By the same token, one would conjecture that if you send an object into the past while remaining in the present yourself, it will arrive in a different universe -- not this one, but one whose timeline is consistent with its presence there. Otherwise you would face the paradoxical situation of retroactively changing your present.
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:18 PM
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You can adjust your speed through time by adjusting your speed through space. The drawback is that it takes a lot of energy to adjust your speed through space enough to make much of a difference in your speed though time and you probably end up somewhere you don't want to be.

I'd think the bigger draw back is you slow your personal flow of time to a crawl
but everyone elses continues at normal speed, so no matter where you end up, when you turn around and come back, everyone you wanted to tell about it is dead and gone, and no one that is here cares who you are.
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:31 PM
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I would argue that the causality paradox is much more fundamental than such macroscopic examples, and that in fact the introduction of any matter or energy whatsoever -- even a single quantum particle -- from the future into the past would, according to chaos theory, necessarily alter the future.
Without meaning to be overly critical, this argument to me doesn't really make sense. Chaos theory broadly is about how in certain systems small changes to initial conditions result in much larger changes to later conditions, but an acausal spacetime (i.e. a spacetime with closed causal curves) cannot be described by the development of initial conditions. In other words chaos theory is a redundant concept when "time travel" is involved.
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:50 PM
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Indeed, there is no future to visit.
I'm not sure you simply take that as a given, and use it to disprove another theory. Certain futures may be inexorable, to a degree of certainty that their denial is untenable. For example, the light from a star, which is now 186,000 miles from my present position, will reach me one second in the future, and the principles of the theory (although I haven't read them) that in the existing universe governed by the accepted laws, nothing can stop it. Just as certainly as "there is no future".
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Old 03-09-2018, 02:42 AM
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See? Told you I could do it.
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Old 03-09-2018, 02:43 AM
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I'm traveling through time as I write this post. The secret is to maintain a steady pace into the future.
It is possible to jump back a minute though - I'll show you... scroil up a bit.
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:06 AM
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OK, so there's a time machine - is the time traveler in a time shield?

Whatever the math, the future beyond 100 years does not contain the time traveler.
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:21 AM
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Why? The fact that a path is stochastic does not imply that all possible paths in the distribution actually occur. Many worlds is only one possible interpretation of QM.
So you're saying that there may exist a world in which the "Many worlds" theory is false?
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Quoth Crane:

Whatever the math, the future beyond 100 years does not contain the time traveler.
Well, it doesn't if the traveler doesn't go there. But it's really easy to go there-- Why wouldn't he?

Quote:
Quoth Cartooniverse, 25 and a half hours ago:

Indeed, there is no future to visit.
It looks like Cartooniverse of 25 and a half hours ago is now proven wrong, because here we are now in his future, and it most certainly does exist.
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Old 03-09-2018, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
What does it mean for something to be mathematically possible?
A scientist in the linked article uses this phrase but there is no explanation. There is a link to the abstract of the published paper but you must pay to get the full article.

I think in this context it means that [the authors believe that] there is a mathematical model that shows that this sort of time travel is possible, but that the technology to implement it is not available and maybe even infeasible.

It is mathematically possible to accelerate a school bus to 0.999c but it ain't never gonna happen.
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  #46  
Old 03-09-2018, 09:47 AM
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CookingWithGas CookingWithGas is offline
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What did the OP do to get banned? It was only his second post.
  #47  
Old 03-09-2018, 09:49 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weisshund View Post
I'd think the bigger draw back is you slow your personal flow of time to a crawl
but everyone elses continues at normal speed, so no matter where you end up, when you turn around and come back, everyone you wanted to tell about it is dead and gone, and no one that is here cares who you are.
It's a drawback if you have friends and family that you would want to see again.

Less a drawback if the point is to outlive your enemies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I'm not sure you simply take that as a given, and use it to disprove another theory. Certain futures may be inexorable, to a degree of certainty that their denial is untenable. For example, the light from a star, which is now 186,000 miles from my present position, will reach me one second in the future, and the principles of the theory (although I haven't read them) that in the existing universe governed by the accepted laws, nothing can stop it. Just as certainly as "there is no future".
Not if I put an opaque barrier between you and the star.
  #48  
Old 03-09-2018, 10:25 AM
Hari Seldon Hari Seldon is offline
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If time travel is possible, where are they?
  #49  
Old 03-09-2018, 10:56 AM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CookingWithGas View Post
What did the OP do to get banned? It was only his second post.
IANA Mod and I haven't checked but it looks like he was spamming a website, particularly if he was posting the same messages across multiple boards.

Or maybe he was an unauthorized time traveller and Chronos is a Time Cop. It would certainly explain the name.
  #50  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:14 PM
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Nobody has ever mentioned the possibility that I'm a Time Cop.

And if they have, then I'll make sure that nobody has ever mentioned it.

Understood?
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