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Old 01-15-2019, 10:06 AM
kanicbird kanicbird is online now
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The kanicbird boarder wall solution, and Mexico will pay for it

While the logistics of a system will have to be worked out, the basic premise is we allow a migrant worker visa entry. The migrant worker has lets say 90 days in the US, and means to support himself either with provable accessible funds or provable employment which will meet the qualifications. His pay is put into a account but he only can access a percentage of, maybe up to half, while in the US. Upon leaving within the 90 days with proof of gainful employment he can recover the rest of his pay, released at the boarder crossing, minus a tax (perhaps 10%) which goes to boarder enforcement. If a migrant can not prove work during his time in the US or overstays his 90 days any money he has in the account is forfeit and those funds can go to boarder enforcement or wall building/maintenance and the migrant will not be allowed back in the US on such a visa for a set period of time.

This way good Mexican workers can work legally in the US, the taxes withheld go to feed the US tax system with no benefit to the migrant (America First), then he will have to pay the additional tax to allow a system which allows him to do this (boarder crossing migrant worker tax). Any 'bad' Mexican workers, those who do not follow our rules, will lose any funds in the account and barred from coming back and any funds they have will go to make it hard for them to sneak back in (as they will be barred from official entry).
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:15 AM
Fear Itself Fear Itself is offline
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Why would someone willing to cross the border illegally and live in the shadows comply with such a system to make less money?
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:44 AM
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Sounds like a very good way to increase the number of dangerous illegal crossings through the easily-surmounted wall and reduce our information about who is entering and where.
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:49 AM
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They only get to use half their pay? What the hell can you do food-and-board wise with half migrant worker scale pay?
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
They only get to use half their pay? What the hell can you do food-and-board wise with half migrant worker scale pay?
Seconded.

Proposals like the OP only make sense to people who don't understand poverty.
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
They only get to use half their pay? What the hell can you do food-and-board wise with half migrant worker scale pay?
No they get full pay, minus the boarder tax. They have to go back into Mexico to collect all of it however.

Last edited by kanicbird; 01-15-2019 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:54 AM
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Sounds like a very good way to increase the number of dangerous illegal crossings through the easily-surmounted wall and reduce our information about who is entering and where.
How? We will have more info on those who cross for work, no effect on those who cross for dangerous reasons except more funds to fight and wall off them and their crossing attempts.
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post
Why would someone willing to cross the border illegally and live in the shadows comply with such a system to make less money?
It would not be a illegal crossing, and they would not live in the shadows, they were be here on a migrant worker visa. They could/must enter through traditional ports of entry, no wall scaling equipment needed.

Last edited by kanicbird; 01-15-2019 at 11:57 AM.
  #9  
Old 01-15-2019, 11:57 AM
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Did any of the above posters actually read the idea at all?
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:59 AM
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I crossed the boarder once, and he got really pissed off, threatened to beat the crap outta me.
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:09 PM
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No they get full pay, minus the boarder tax. They have to go back into Mexico to collect all of it however.
If they don't get full pay at the time they earn it, what are they living on while they are in the United States? It doesn't matter that they get their full pay after they return.
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:12 PM
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If they don't get full pay at the time they earn it, what are they living on while they are in the United States? It doesn't matter that they get their full pay after they return.
That depends on if they are going to the US to subsist for the 3 months, or are they trying to earn the equivalent of their years salary in Mexico in 3 months in the US?

My understanding is most are going to work in the US not for subsistence but for the opportunity to make a lot (comparatively) in a short amount of time.
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:14 PM
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His pay is put into a account but he only can access a percentage of, maybe up to half, while in the US.
Up to half? Where does he live for those 90 days-in a cardboard box?
What do you think migrant workers earn, that you think it would be possible to live off a fraction of that amount?

Last edited by Czarcasm; 01-15-2019 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:16 PM
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Did any of the above posters actually read the idea at all?
Yup, we all did. Your proposal would encourage illegal entry by adding onerous terms and complications to legal entry.

It's not a viable plan. You're just going to shift illegal immigration from overstays to undocumented crossings.

I'm not saying nobody would follow your rules -- I'm sure some folks would tolerate it and a few might even welcome it. But, to many, having a hold put on half of their income would become an unbearable burden and an incentive to cross illegally. This would be worse when the first inevitable stories come of officials seizing funds either erroneously or due to minor discrepancies. Even if that didn't become endemic (spoiler: it would), even a few stories would have a chilling effect.
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:18 PM
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Up to half? Where does he live for those 90 days-in a cardboard box?
What do you think migrant workers earn, that you think it would be possible to live off a fraction of that amount?
Where do they stay now?
  #16  
Old 01-15-2019, 12:20 PM
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So the wall would be built first, paid for by American taxpayers, and then repaid this way? And by the way, how long a wall are we talking about here?
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:22 PM
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@OP: The problem with your proposal is that it completely overlooks the mindset, circumstances and situation of the average illegal immigrant.

Quote: "The migrant worker has lets say 90 days in the US, and means to support himself either with provable accessible funds or provable employment which will meet the qualifications" - many illegal immigrants simply don't match any of these three criteria. They don't intend to just stay for ninety days - they want to stay for many years, maybe even life, in America. They have very little money, little provable employment. They just want to come and stay, and cannot or do not care a whit for these regulations.

You have to meet people where they are, not where you want them to be.
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:24 PM
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Where do they stay now?
That may be something you should look at before you propose to make them live on a fraction of what they now earn, dontcha think?
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:27 PM
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Yup, we all did. Your proposal would encourage illegal entry by adding onerous terms and complications to legal entry.

It's not a viable plan. You're just going to shift illegal immigration from overstays to undocumented crossings.

I'm not saying nobody would follow your rules -- I'm sure some folks would tolerate it and a few might even welcome it. But, to many, having a hold put on half of their income would become an unbearable burden and an incentive to cross illegally. This would be worse when the first inevitable stories come of officials seizing funds either erroneously or due to minor discrepancies. Even if that didn't become endemic (spoiler: it would), even a few stories would have a chilling effect.
Why would this be? This would be a additional way to cross legally, not a restriction on other ways to cross legally or illegally (except for more funds to deter it). If they cross illegally and don't like the terms, they can continue to do so. If they cross via another program then this does not apply unless they like this one better.
  #20  
Old 01-15-2019, 12:27 PM
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Did any of the above posters actually read the idea at all?
Yes, your proposal is that people coming to America looking for work can make two choices. They can come here legally, in which case they will have half their money held, be charged taxes, and then kicked back out in ninety days. Or they can come here illegally, in which case they can keep all their money and work here as long as they want.

Your system would incentivize people to come here illegally.
  #21  
Old 01-15-2019, 12:35 PM
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Yes, your proposal is that people coming to America looking for work can make two choices. They can come here legally, in which case they will have half their money held, be charged taxes, and then kicked back out in ninety days. Or they can come here illegally, in which case they can keep all their money and work here as long as they want.

Your system would incentivize people to come here illegally.
Over what other option? Again the are not forced to cross under this program, they can chose another one if they qualify.
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:35 PM
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The yearly salary of a migrant worker-$7,500...before taxes. Take your 10% off the top, cut that in half, then you tell me where they sleep and what they eat.
Holy shit-at least when they pull this on prisoners they provide room and board.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 01-15-2019 at 12:35 PM.
  #23  
Old 01-15-2019, 12:43 PM
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The yearly salary of a migrant worker-$7,500...before taxes. Take your 10% off the top, cut that in half, then you tell me where they sleep and what they eat.
Holy shit-at least when they pull this on prisoners they provide room and board.
Again America first, if you want to come here, to the greatest economy ever, and you are not a citizen, you are given a great great opportunity but must realize that its America First, and they will still make out great, bringing home many pesos to Mama and Papa for them to live not only comfortable but also a bit of luxury back home in Mexico, and all that supporting the US economy in a positive way, defending our boarders and strengthen our relationships with our neighbor to the south, who btw has been taking advantage of us for many many years. (my best Donald Trump impression, as that the audience that also needs to be reached to support this plan).

Last edited by kanicbird; 01-15-2019 at 12:44 PM.
  #24  
Old 01-15-2019, 12:45 PM
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But perhaps back to kanicbird plan 1.0, just have every Mexican who wants to cross the boarder bring a brick
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:46 PM
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Again America first, if you want to come here, to the greatest economy ever, and you are not a citizen, you are given a great great opportunity but must realize that its America First, and they will still make out great, bringing home many pesos to Mama and Papa for them to live not only comfortable but also a bit of luxury back home in Mexico, and all that supporting the US economy in a positive way, defending our boarders and strengthen our relationships with our neighbor to the south, who btw has been taking advantage of us for many many years. (my best Donald Trump impression, as that the audience that also needs to be reached to support this plan).
Yay America!!!!!
Now how about answering my questions?
  #26  
Old 01-15-2019, 12:48 PM
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...must realize that its America First, and they will still make out great, bringing home many pesos to Mama and Papa for them to live not only comfortable but also a bit of luxury back home in Mexico, ...
Checks forum, IMHO. Yup. IMHO this is incredibly condescending.
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:49 PM
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Checks forum, IMHO. Yup. IMHO this is incredibly condescending.
Makes me doubt the sincerity of his proposal.
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:56 PM
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So if the average migrant makes $7500/ year, and say there are 200,000 people who would cross each year*, and all of them will give half their salary under this system.

Let's see..that's a collection of $750M/year, at that rate the wall will be paid for in 27 years. (Not counting yearly maintenance and operating costs), assuming it could be built for $20B.

Sounds like a plan. Call us in say 13 years when you've got enough to start. Because I'm not advancing any money under this scheme.

*Based on one estimate that the BP stops 100000 people per year, and that they stop appx 50%. And you can't count the 10M already here in this plan.
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:01 PM
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Checks forum, IMHO. Yup. IMHO this is incredibly condescending.
Perhaps a little overboard, just trying to express an idea that would satisfy both sides of the aisle and let my emotion get the best of me when I step into Trump to satisfy his base.
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:03 PM
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Yay America!!!!!
Now how about answering my questions?
Perhaps where they are sleeping now? My assumption is they are coming here to work a short time and make moeny to live in Mexico.
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:04 PM
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So if the average migrant makes $7500/ year, and say there are 200,000 people who would cross each year*, and all of them will give half their salary under this system.

Let's see..that's a collection of $750M/year, at that rate the wall will be paid for in 27 years. (Not counting yearly maintenance and operating costs), assuming it could be built for $20B.

Sounds like a plan. Call us in say 13 years when you've got enough to start. Because I'm not advancing any money under this scheme.

*Based on one estimate that the BP stops 100000 people per year, and that they stop appx 50%. And you can't count the 10M already here in this plan.
27 years is not bad, as if it looks productive a bond could be taken out to complete the project much sooner, financed with the revenue of the program.
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:09 PM
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But perhaps back to kanicbird plan 1.0, just have every Mexican who wants to cross the boarder bring a brick
Can we backup the plan to kanicbird plan 0.0 where you learn how to spell the word "border"?


To the plan in the OP, if you let them in with a migrant visa, they have zero incentive to participate in your punitive plan. If they follow the rules, they get 50% of their pay now and 40% if they leave the country after a short time. If they participate and break the rules, they lose 50% of the money they earned. If they break the rules from day one, they keep 100% of the money, and can stay as long as they want.

Can you provide a worse deal for these people?



I've believed this for decades, if you want to stop illegal immigration, arrest people who hire illegal immigrants.
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:10 PM
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Did you actually put thought into this plan? Did you take the time to inform yourself on the wages earned by migrants in the US, the average wages earned in Mexico, the cost of living in both of those places, the cost of administering a migrant work program, the impact of massive migrant work force on unskilled American employment, or... pretty much any relevant facts?
Your plan is grossly ill-informed.
  #34  
Old 01-15-2019, 01:11 PM
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Can we backup the plan to kanicbird plan 0.0 where you learn how to spell the word "border"?


To the plan in the OP, if you let them in with a migrant visa, they have zero incentive to participate in your punitive plan. If they follow the rules, they get 50% of their pay now and 40% if they leave the country after a short time. If they participate and break the rules, they lose 50% of the money they earned. If they break the rules from day one, they keep 100% of the money, and can stay as long as they want.

Can you provide a worse deal for these people?



I've believed this for decades, if you want to stop illegal immigration, arrest people who hire illegal immigrants.
Then they will lose their right to re-cross using that plan. And yes that works very well with the arresting people who hiring illegal immigrants and for my spelling lessons.

Last edited by kanicbird; 01-15-2019 at 01:12 PM.
  #35  
Old 01-15-2019, 01:26 PM
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So far the take on this is this plan so for due to the replies may sound great to the ill informed and actually do nothing or even be counterproductive while making us believe we are doing something positive.
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:32 PM
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So far the take on this is this plan so for due to the replies may sound great to the ill informed and actually do nothing or even be counterproductive while making us believe we are doing something positive.
My take on this plan is that I don't know whether this is a sincere effort on your part to present a plan that you actually think is viable, or some sort of game you are playing "just to prove a point"...and this post of yours makes me lean towards the second option.
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:32 PM
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Hey OP, forget the wall, forget immigration, forget your proposal.

Why do you suppose that some people work under the table instead of above-board jobs, knowing that they may risk various penalties for doing so?
  #38  
Old 01-15-2019, 01:37 PM
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My take on this plan is that I don't know whether this is a sincere effort on your part to present a plan that you actually think is viable, or some sort of game you are playing "just to prove a point"...and this post of yours makes me lean towards the second option.
It was a thought I had while hiking, I wanted to see how it flies. (it was also why I didn't have time to research the things you and others questioned.)

Last edited by kanicbird; 01-15-2019 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:47 PM
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It was a thought I had while hiking, I wanted to see how it flies. (it was also why I didn't have time to research the things you and others questioned.)
If it was a sincere thought, it was ill-thought out and rather insensitive. By the way, if your take-home pay had an extra 10% taken from it and then cut in half, how well would you fare?
"Where do they live now?" In places their very meager pay allows them to live. Reduce that take-home to a fraction that is less than 50% of the original, and you deny them even that necessity. Do you think their landlords will allow them to cut their rent in half?
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:48 PM
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It was a thought I had while hiking, I wanted to see how it flies. (it was also why I didn't have time to research the things you and others questioned.)
You were forced to present it to us immediately without doing any research on it?
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:56 PM
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If it was a sincere thought, it was ill-thought out and rather insensitive. By the way, if your take-home pay had an extra 10% taken from it and then cut in half, how well would you fare?
"Where do they live now?" In places their very meager pay allows them to live. Reduce that take-home to a fraction that is less than 50% of the original, and you deny them even that necessity. Do you think their landlords will allow them to cut their rent in half?
For someone who has lived in a tent, I think you are assuming a bit too much that they have landlords, but i could be mistaken. My thoughts again is they are earning most of that money for Mexico, not to spend in the US.
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:04 PM
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Where do they stay now?
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That may be something you should look at before you propose to make them live on a fraction of what they now earn, dontcha think?
Most migrant farm workers live in dilapidated housing provided by their employer farms. The majority of money earned by migrant workers is sent or taken back to their home countries to support family members there.
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:08 PM
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What if we let them keep all their pay, but if they overstay their visa, they get raped by demons from hell?

(Or from anywhere, really. The key thing is the demon-rape, not where they're contracted from.)
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:11 PM
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Most migrant farm workers live in dilapidated housing provided by their employer farms. The majority of money earned by migrant workers is sent or taken back to their home countries to support family members there.
From this site:
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According to the U.S. Department of Labor, 17 percent of all hired farmworkers, both migrant and settled, live in employer-owned housing. Among those who lived in employer housing, 76 percent lived there free of charge. (The statistics do not differentiate between migrant and permanent farmworkers.) Fewer farmworkers are living in employer housing than in 1995, when employers owned nearly 30 percent of farmworker housing units.

(Farmers who hire guest workers on H2A visas are required by law to provide free housing and transportation, but these workers only account for 2 to 5 percent of all migrant workers.
  #45  
Old 01-15-2019, 02:22 PM
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Most migrant farm workers live in dilapidated housing provided by their employer farms. The majority of money earned by migrant workers is sent or taken back to their home countries to support family members there.
That was my initial assumption which has been challenged.
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:23 PM
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What if we let them keep all their pay, but if they overstay their visa, they get raped by demons from hell?

(Or from anywhere, really. The key thing is the demon-rape, not where they're contracted from.)
Um, Ok, but yeah, the US has to get paid too.
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:26 PM
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What if we let them keep all their pay, but if they overstay their visa, they get raped by demons from hell?

(Or from anywhere, really. The key thing is the demon-rape, not where they're contracted from.)
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Originally Posted by kanicbird View Post
Um, Ok, but yeah, the US has to get paid too.
The politicians will promise that the demon-rapers will foot the bill for the punishment, but you can be sure that it will be the American taxpayers left with the bill for the mystical sexual assaults
  #48  
Old 01-15-2019, 02:30 PM
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The politicians will promise that the demon-rapers will foot the bill for the punishment, but you can be sure that it will be the American taxpayers left with the bill for the mystical sexual assaults
Wouldn't demon-rapers be those who rape demons?
  #49  
Old 01-15-2019, 02:40 PM
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Fine. I rescind the hyphen.
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
They only get to use half their pay? What the hell can you do food-and-board wise with half migrant worker scale pay?
Actually, many migrant workers send home around half their take home pay.
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