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Old 02-13-2019, 11:00 AM
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Question for anti gun people? home defense?


Question: Lets say your at home and someone is outside trying to break down your door and get in to either rob or hurt you. Yes, you can and should dial 911 (assuming your phone is working) but you need protection NOW.

What would you do since you dont own a firearm?
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:05 AM
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I'm not anti-gun, but 'run away' strikes me as a viable alternative in most circumstances. This could be as easy as 'walk to a neighbors house'. Certainly you can think of myriad exceptions to this, but one of the things that they always teach in armed intruder type classes is evade as a primary goal, if possible. If not possible, then hide or barricade and wait for the police. Fight is usually the last resort. As for fighting without a gun, well, most houses have some weapon potential...you could throw a frying pan at them, or maybe concoct a bomb out of basic house hold items and a microwave...
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:11 AM
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I own a firearm but I would leave by another door or go into the garage and lock myself in the car - while calling 911. Both faster options than getting the gun unlocked.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:14 AM
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What do you mean by "anti-gun"? I'm a gun owner and I generally support the Democratic/liberal/progressive view of gun control and gun rights (with some nuance).

Generally, I believe the "run/hide/fight" model of dealing with armed invaders is wisest, no matter how one is armed -- flee (with family) when possible; if fleeing is impossible, then hide (while preparing to fight if found); if hiding is impossible (or if one is found), then fight. Aside from family, there's nothing in my home that I wouldn't gladly trade away to avoid the chance of having to kill someone (or, obviously, being killed).

There might be circumstances in which this is not the wisest model to follow, but this would be my initial thinking.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 02-13-2019 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:18 AM
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I can fuck somebody up with a baseball bat. Bonus, it also won't accidentally go off and kill my 5 year old.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:26 AM
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I can fuck somebody up with a baseball bat. Bonus, it also won't accidentally go off and kill my 5 year old.
This. Definitely start off evading -- run out the back door while calling 911. If that's not possible, barricade the door to the bedroom and wait for the cops to arrive. If that's not possible, grab a baseball bat -- in the close confines of most homes, you're going to be much better off with a bat anyways.

Of course, in my case, any potential burglar will be scared off when our two huskies run over and start scratching at the door or window he's trying to get through.

Even if I was stupid enough to own a gun (and I'd have to be pretty dumb, since it's far more likely to kill me or my wife than a burglar) I wouldn't try to use it. I can't think of a better way to ensure escalation to serious injury or death, and I can't guarantee that it will be THEIR injury or death, not mine. It's like pulling a knife during a bar brawl -- you just took a serious situation and made it deadly.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:36 AM
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I would barricade the front door and either exit out the back door or hide in a locked bedroom until the police arrive.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Question: Lets say your at home and someone is outside trying to break down your door and get in to either rob or hurt you. Yes, you can and should dial 911 (assuming your phone is working) but you need protection NOW.

What would you do since you dont own a firearm?
My dogs would be barking up a storm, so I'd let them go handle it while I got out of the house.

In the moment you describe, I would certainly wish to have a gun. However, such an event has not yet happened to me and may never happen. So to be ready, I would have had to have a gun in the house for decades since it could happen at any time. But that would mean dealing with all the potential negative consequences like accidental discharge, children finding it, someone using it out of anger, someone using it out of depression, accidentally shooting a resident that I though was a burglar, etc.

I think the chance of positive and negative outcomes of a gun in my house would be low in either case. But since the negative consequences can be so devastating, I don't want to take a chance on them happening. If a burglar breaks in so quickly that I don't have time to get out before he attacks me, then likely I wouldn't have time to get my gun either.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:41 AM
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The chances that an unintended bad thing would happen with the gun are significantly higher than a good thing would happen with the gun. No matter the answer to this question, it's irrelevant to the calculus of gun control.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:42 AM
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I have lived in a wide variety of residences over 57 years. No bad person has ever tried to come in while I was home. You might as well ask “people who go outside without lightening rods, how do you protect yourself from being struck?”
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:43 AM
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I can fuck somebody up with a baseball bat. Bonus, it also won't accidentally go off and kill my 5 year old.
Can you? Do you have the will to close to blood-spatter range with your opponent and use that bat to inflict serious, possibly lethal, injury on hir? Have you practiced its use indoors? Or, do you just have a bat somewhere as kind of a woobie to hold if you hear a noise that scares you? Impact weapons require strength, skill, and courage to use effectively against an unknown, possibly armed, opponent. Do you qualify?
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:52 AM
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Can you? Do you have the will to close to blood-spatter range with your opponent and use that bat to inflict serious, possibly lethal, injury on hir? Have you practiced its use indoors? Or, do you just have a bat somewhere as kind of a woobie to hold if you hear a noise that scares you? Impact weapons require strength, skill, and courage to use effectively against an unknown, possibly armed, opponent. Do you qualify?
Since I'm not trying to murder the burglar in cold blood, but defend myself with appropriate and proportional force*, then yeah, I should be fine.

*I don't live in one of the states where the second an intruder sets a single toe on my front lawn I have the legal right and moral obligation to ventilate his organs, so my definition of "appropriate and proportional force" may vary from yours, and thank God for that.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:55 AM
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Trying to steal my stuff?


Have at it. I don't own anything that is worth my taking a human life over.

Trying to hurt me?


Why would they want to do so? I don't have any enemies. If there are people out there who have a desire to do you harm (say you're a drug dealer, or a accountant for the mob, or the last in an ancient line do demon hunters), then I agree that you should own a gun. But for the rest of us? Not so much.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:03 PM
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What do you mean by "anti-gun"? I'm a gun owner and I generally support the Democratic/liberal/progressive view of gun control and gun rights (with some nuance).
I'm in a similar position. With each school/mall/theater/etc shooting I move further into the "anti-gun" camp, and yet I own several firearms.

After calling 911 I might be waiting 30 minutes or more for response. I'd probably position myself in a room where I have a clear line of fire, take some deep breaths, and prepare to possibly kill another human being if forced to.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:06 PM
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Trying to steal my stuff?


Have at it. I don't own anything that is worth my taking a human life over.

Trying to hurt me?


Why would they want to do so? I don't have any enemies. If there are people out there who have a desire to do you harm (say you're a drug dealer, or a accountant for the mob, or the last in an ancient line do demon hunters), then I agree that you should own a gun. But for the rest of us? Not so much.
How do you distinguish between an intruder that is trying to steal your stuff vs one that is trying to hurt you?
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:06 PM
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Can you? Do you have the will to close to blood-spatter range with your opponent and use that bat to inflict serious, possibly lethal, injury on hir? Have you practiced its use indoors? Or, do you just have a bat somewhere as kind of a woobie to hold if you hear a noise that scares you? Impact weapons require strength, skill, and courage to use effectively against an unknown, possibly armed, opponent. Do you qualify?
Are you kidding? Are you expecting this benchmark of mental preparedness from a gun owner as well? Is the woobie dig the gun owners reason to have their weapon under the bed?

I'm 40 and average size and fitness for my age. I can and would hurt a home invader.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:09 PM
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I have two dogs. What more security does a gun offer me?
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:10 PM
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I have two dogs. What more security does a gun offer me?
I believe it should make you feel more secure with the size of your penis.

Last edited by Babale; 02-13-2019 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:12 PM
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Question: Lets say your at home and someone is outside trying to break down your door and get in to either rob or hurt you. Yes, you can and should dial 911 (assuming your phone is working) but you need protection NOW.

What would you do since you dont own a firearm?
Baseball bat(wooden), baseball bat(aluminum), small frying pan, medium frying pan, large frying pan, eight dining room chairs, one of several dozen kitchen knives of various sizes, untold dozens of other utensils, a strategically swung cat, the other strategically swung cat, two table lamps, one standing lamp, My Beloved's sharp pointy thing collection, the toaster, the blender, whips, chains, hairspray-with-a-lighter, a fire extinguisher, a marble bust of a nude Ronald McDonald, a complete 1957 set of Funk & Wagnalls(including the Yearbook)...and a back door to calmly walk through while waiting for the police.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:12 PM
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Only a psychopath wouldn't hesitate to use deadly force in a situation they could avoid. Swinging a baseball bat is easier.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:16 PM
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Really, this is a problem I spend zero time thinking about.

I just googled some statistics on home invasions, and it appears that while burglaries are common, the number of times that (a) someone is home and (b) the offender has a weapon and (c) the offender is not known to the homeowner is quite small. Since I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone who is going to try to steal from me or try to murder me, I feel confident that I'm better off watching reality TV while checking out Facebook on my phone than planning how to defend myself.

But since I know that's not what the OP is asking, I'd probably barricade my bedroom door and look for something to defend myself if someone smashed in the door. After all, I am extremely confident that the police would be at my home extremely quickly; because when I've called them for nuisance crimes they have responded with incredible alacrity.

ETA: I'm also saying this with the knowledge that I live in Washington, DC, not some Syria-like rural area where Hobbes would be scared stiff at raising a family, where libertarians insist that public safety services are only for the rich and crazy-ass murderers roam the woods and farms.

Last edited by Ravenman; 02-13-2019 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:16 PM
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Only a psychopath wouldn't hesitate to use deadly force in a situation they could avoid. Swinging a baseball bat is easier.
Swinging a baseball bat can be deadly force.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:17 PM
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XT and others- Apartment dwellers may not have 'run away' options.

iiandyiii, Buck Godot- the objective for my mother's home intruder included sexual assault.

Sitnam- a bat may be a good option for you, but not everyone.

Ravenman- not everyone enjoys rapid PD response times.

I don't mind if some of you don't want a firearm. I'd rather you didn't try making that choice for my mother (or myself).

Last edited by sps49sd; 02-13-2019 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:17 PM
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Swinging a baseball bat can be deadly force.
Can is the key word. Firing a gun is ALWAYS deadly force.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:20 PM
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XT and others- Apartment dwellers may not have 'run away' options.

iiandyiii, Buck Godot- the objective for my mother's home intruder included sexual assault.

Sitnam- a bat may be a good option for you, but not everyone.

I don't mind if some of you don't want a firearm. I'd rather you didn't try making that choice for my mother (or myself).
If you live in an apartment, you have the option of calling for help -- people are literally a door away.

I don't trust you or your mother with a deadly weapon, so I have no problem making that choice "for" you, just like we as a society made the choice to prevent your mother from keeping a tiger in her apartment for protection.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:22 PM
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Can is the key word. Firing a gun is ALWAYS deadly force.
Are you trying to make a legal distinction here? Lots of people survive being shot at. Some don't. Lots of people survive being hit with a baseball bat. Some don't. In both cases, you might face legal peril if you use the object in a manner / time that does not enjoy approval by the government.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:26 PM
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If you live in an apartment, you have the option of calling for help -- people are literally a door away.

I don't trust you or your mother with a deadly weapon, so I have no problem making that choice "for" you, just like we as a society made the choice to prevent your mother from keeping a tiger in her apartment for protection.
Babale, you _______ ______, this isn't a hypothetical. It happened. Hollering did not help. Her building was not a nice building with basell bat wielding meanly men awaiting a cry for help 24/ 7.

____ ___.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:27 PM
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Are there any stats as to how often home break-ins are done by intruders carrying firearms?
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:28 PM
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... I have no problem making that choice "for" you...
Tyrants never do.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:30 PM
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Are a lot of people trying outlaw private handgun ownership? I must have missed it
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:31 PM
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Are there any stats as to how often home break-ins are done by intruders carrying firearms?
DoJ - Victimization During Household Burglary (PDF)

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An estimated 3.7 million household burglaries occurred each year on average from 2003 to 2007. In about 28% of these burglaries, a household member was present during the burglary. In 7% of all household burglaries, a household member experienced some form of violent victimization ...

A household member was present in roughly 1 million burglaries and became victims of violent crimes in 266,560 burglaries ...

Overall, 61% of offenders were unarmed when violence occurred during a burglary while a resident was present. About 12% of all households violently burglarized while someone was home faced an offender armed with a firearm. ...

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 02-13-2019 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:33 PM
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I don't mind if some of you don't want a firearm. I'd rather you didn't try making that choice for my mother (or myself).
Removing every firearm from every citizen in the United States was exactly what I wanted to do today. Damn it. Guess I'll go to a movie or something instead.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:33 PM
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I don't mind if some of you don't want a firearm. I'd rather you didn't try making that choice for my mother (or myself).
One thing I'd be much more comfortable with is only allowing guns to people who have had extensive training and continue that training. So police, military, etc. would be okay. But Joe Citizen often has very little training, and typically no training at situations involving close-quarters, high-stress, low-light, high-confusion, etc. A random person in an apartment is probably pretty likely to shoot at random noises, miss their target and shoot something else, shoot at someone they think is a burglar but is a maintenance worker, etc. With everyone being able to purchase a gun, you end up with people shooting because of road rage, shooting because a strange car turned into their driveway, shooting because they're mad their sports team lost, etc.

Look at this story recently in the news: Fire chief charged with pulling gun on Boy Scout placing flyers on homes That guy used pretty poor judgement even though he's a first responder who presumably has been in high-stress environments. I'm not faulting him for trying to figure out what was going on, but dude! observe for a while before pointing a gun at a 12-year-old!
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:37 PM
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I think you're probably overestimating the amount of training that the average police officer or member of the military receives. Dramatically.

Ask if you can visit your local police shooting range. Take a look at the walls, floor, and ceiling while there.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 02-13-2019 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:38 PM
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I would surmise that there was a chance that of a violent confrontation if the intruder was armed...but this dances around the question I actually asked.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:40 PM
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XT and others- Apartment dwellers may not have 'run away' options.

iiandyiii, Buck Godot- the objective for my mother's home intruder included sexual assault.

Sitnam- a bat may be a good option for you, but not everyone.

Ravenman- not everyone enjoys rapid PD response times.

I don't mind if some of you don't want a firearm. I'd rather you didn't try making that choice for my mother (or myself).
I don't see how this conflicts with anything I wrote.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:41 PM
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I think you're probably overestimating the amount of training that the average police officer or member of the military receives. Dramatically.

Ask if you can visit your local police shooting range. Take a look at the walls, floor, and ceiling while there.

Good point. Okay, even they don't get to have guns! The only people who can have personal weapons are those who regularly engage in close-quarters combat training, like SWAT, SEAL teams, etc.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:41 PM
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I think you're probably overestimating the amount of training that the average police officer or member of the military receives. Dramatically.

Ask if you can visit your local police shooting range. Take a look at the walls, floor, and ceiling while there.
I haven't been to one in awhile so I guess I don't know. Do they typically make shooting ranges high pressure situations and turn the lights off?
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:44 PM
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Are the police usually required to have more training than civilian gun owners, less, or are the requirements about the same?
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:45 PM
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One thing I'd be much more comfortable with is only allowing guns to people who have had extensive training and continue that training. So police, military, etc. would be okay. But Joe Citizen often has very little training, and typically no training at situations involving close-quarters, high-stress, low-light, high-confusion, etc. A random person in an apartment is probably pretty likely to shoot at random noises, miss their target and shoot something else, shoot at someone they think is a burglar but is a maintenance worker, etc. With everyone being able to purchase a gun, you end up with people shooting because of road rage, shooting because a strange car turned into their driveway, shooting because they're mad their sports team lost, etc.

Look at this story recently in the news: Fire chief charged with pulling gun on Boy Scout placing flyers on homes That guy used pretty poor judgement even though he's a first responder who presumably has been in high-stress environments. I'm not faulting him for trying to figure out what was going on, but dude! observe for a while before pointing a gun at a 12-year-old!
I was in the military. I did not ONCE touch a firearm with a bore less than five inches.

I did do a lot of backyard and country shooting with my father, mother, brothers, cousins. One of those firearms we used is the one my mother had. Still has.

'probably pretty likely to shoot at'

It was someone coming in a window. Your imagination and excuses mean little to me, and the idiot fire chief is an idiot.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:45 PM
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I haven't been to one in awhile so I guess I don't know. Do they typically make shooting ranges high pressure situations and turn the lights off?
No, it's typically a fairly low-pressure situation with good illumination, and yet every police range I've ever been to has bullet holes in the floor, walls, and / or ceiling because cops aren't particularly adept at handling firearms.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:46 PM
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I don't see how this conflicts with anything I wrote.
yep. The OP asked a question, and we answered it. I'm not sps49sd's mother, so her experience is not relevant to my answer. (But I am very, very sorry to hear that she was the victim of a crime, or attempted crime -- I'm not clear what happened.)
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:47 PM
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I think you're probably overestimating the amount of training that the average police officer or member of the military receives. Dramatically.

Ask if you can visit your local police shooting range. Take a look at the walls, floor, and ceiling while there.
Wait...it really looks like you're arguing that the "average" cop or soldier is just a straight-up poorly trained and inaccurate user of a patently deadly tool. And you're...happy with this?

I mean, these are the people who are arguably best trained to safely use a firearm in a stressful situation. We should encourage more firearm ownership and use by people who are even less trained than them?
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:47 PM
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Are you trying to make a legal distinction here? Lots of people survive being shot at. Some don't. Lots of people survive being hit with a baseball bat. Some don't. In both cases, you might face legal peril if you use the object in a manner / time that does not enjoy approval by the government.
If you can't see the difference between swinging a baseball bat at someone or shooting them, I don't know what to tell you. It's the same as the difference between a sword and a baseball bat. One is a deadly weapon made for killing. The other can certainly kill, but is not designed to do so, and requires far more deliberately homicidal intent to kill.

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Babale, you _______ ______, this isn't a hypothetical. It happened. Hollering did not help. Her building was not a nice building with basell bat wielding meanly men awaiting a cry for help 24/ 7.

____ ___.
I did not realize that your example was not hypothetical, and I apologize for that -- I would not have responded with the same "tone" (for lack of a better word) nor mentioned either of you in my example. That was insensitive and I apologize.

At the same time, This doesn't change the point. Much more harm is done by private ownership of guns than is prevented by them.

There are about 3 million burglaries a year in the US, and about 60% of those occur between 6 am and 6 pm, when people are likely to be working. Burglars tend to avoid breaking into occupied homes, and when they do, they tend to flee -- because burglars are almost universally desperate amateurs looming for money, not professionals or rapists or killers. That's not to say those don't exist, but gun deaths are a much more serious issue.

Only about 1 in 4 burglaries occur when someone is home. Of those, only 1 in 4 actually leads to a confrontation. That still sound scary, but 65% of the time, the burglar knew the victim -- it's very rare for this to be a "home invasion gone wrong" scenario. And by far the best way to prevent burglary is to install a home alarm system. Homes with alarm systems are 300% less likely to be burglarized.

That someone broke in and attempted to assault or even rape your mother is horrible and despicable, and that person certainly deserves to rot in prison for the rest of his miserable life. If he had been shot and killed, I wouldn't shed a tear or even an ounce of sympathy for him. But far more horrible things happen everyday because of our gun-obsessed culture, and that's a much bigger societal problem.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by filmore View Post
Good point. Okay, even they don't get to have guns! The only people who can have personal weapons are those who regularly engage in close-quarters combat training, like SWAT, SEAL teams, etc.
Good luck with that.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 02-13-2019 at 12:48 PM.
  #46  
Old 02-13-2019, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
XT and others- Apartment dwellers may not have 'run away' options.

iiandyiii, Buck Godot- the objective for my mother's home intruder included sexual assault.

Sitnam- a bat may be a good option for you, but not everyone.

Ravenman- not everyone enjoys rapid PD response times.

I don't mind if some of you don't want a firearm. I'd rather you didn't try making that choice for my mother (or myself).
If you live in an apartment that has only one exit then you are in a death trap anyway. What will you do if there is a fire that blocks your one door? Look, you can always find excuses or very vertical situations where a gun would be best, but the professionals who train people say the best bet is to start with evasion, if you can't do that then barricade and/or hide, and only if you are forced to do you fight. Even in a low probability situation like someone trying to break in you have at least 2 options before you need to resort to fighting, so I don't think a gun is going to be that necessary. I think that you are worse off in the situation you describe if there is a fire, since you can't evade, according to you, and you can't hide from that...nor fight it. Just going to die I guess.
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  #47  
Old 02-13-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Tyrants never do.
Some other things I'm happy to take way your rights to do:

1) exercise your freedom of speech by going to a preschool and teaching all the kids the word "fuck" and "shit"
2) kill black men because they looked at a white woman
3) drive north in the southbound freeway lanes

I must be a really horrible tyrant!
  #48  
Old 02-13-2019, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I don't see how this conflicts with anything I wrote.
>I believe the "run/hide/fight" model of dealing with armed invaders is wisest, no matter how one is armed -- flee (with family) when possible;

She couldn't flee- the window was maybe 40 ft from her door, opening into a hall. Should she take a chance of outrunning the intruder?

>if fleeing is impossible, then hide (while preparing to fight if found);

Studio apartment. The 911 operator advised her to sit against the wall opposite the window, and to empty her revolver into the intruder ONLY IF he passed the windowsill.

>if hiding is impossible (or if one is found), then fight.

Physically fighting back was unlikely to end in her favor.

>Aside from family, there's nothing in my home that I wouldn't gladly trade away to avoid the chance of having to kill someone (or, obviously, being killed)

Well, they did not engage in any discussion about why he was there, there wasn't much to trade, and why take his word for anything?
  #49  
Old 02-13-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Sitnam View Post
I can fuck somebody up with a baseball bat. Bonus, it also won't accidentally go off and kill my 5 year old.
I weigh 110, and your five year old could probably fuck me up.
  #50  
Old 02-13-2019, 12:56 PM
HurricaneDitka is online now
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Wait...it really looks like you're arguing that the "average" cop or soldier is just a straight-up poorly trained and inaccurate user of a patently deadly tool. And you're...happy with this?
No, I'm not "happy" about it. I wish everyone was better trained. But there's this myth among gun control activists that police are something like steely-eyed professionals that never miss, and therefore we can trust them to handle all of society's violent confrontations and the rest of us just can't be trusted to not shoot ourselves in the foot. It's not true.
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