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Old 02-13-2019, 03:01 PM
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Gun owners: what's your plan for a heart attack?


This is going to sound extremely snarky, but I assure you it is not.

Quite a few gun rights advocates say that a firearm is essential for their safety, as they may be a long way from emergency services. This came up a couple times in the neighboring thread about home defense.

Depending on whose statistics you believe, it appears that heart attacks are roughly as common as defensive gun uses inside and outside of the home. (Of course, some may say that one is more frequent than the other, but in rough ballpark terms, it seems reasonable to think of them as generally of the same frequency.)

Automatic external defibrillators are now common in many common spaces, from airplanes to libraries. It looks like a new one costs roughly the same amount as a well-made AR-15, and refurbished AEDs appear to be about half the price. Plus, they are so easy to use that you don't need to practice on them each month!

So gun owners, have you ever thought about buying an AED so you and your family could be prepared on your worst day? Why, or why not?
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
This is going to sound extremely snarky, but I assure you it is not.

Quite a few gun rights advocates say that a firearm is essential for their safety, as they may be a long way from emergency services. This came up a couple times in the neighboring thread about home defense.

Depending on whose statistics you believe, it appears that heart attacks are roughly as common as defensive gun uses inside and outside of the home. (Of course, some may say that one is more frequent than the other, but in rough ballpark terms, it seems reasonable to think of them as generally of the same frequency.)

Automatic external defibrillators are now common in many common spaces, from airplanes to libraries. It looks like a new one costs roughly the same amount as a well-made AR-15, and refurbished AEDs appear to be about half the price. Plus, they are so easy to use that you don't need to practice on them each month!

So gun owners, have you ever thought about buying an AED so you and your family could be prepared on your worst day? Why, or why not?
I'm not a gun owner (just to keep the same theme as in the other thread ), but people are really, really bad at risk assessment. This goes for anti-gun folks as well as gun folks (as well as anti-vaxxers, anti-nukes and those who feel Trump will give them cancer...um, well, ok, that last group is right). They always worry about things that are usually a low probability while dismissing things that are either equivalent or more risky. The chance of being killed, even in the US by a fire arm is minuscule compared to many day to day things we do, yet some folks fret about it. The chance of having your home invaded and it being exactly the right circumstances where you could use your home defense fire arm are even more minuscule from a probability perspective, yet, again, folks fret about it. Most likely what will kill the fretters on both sides of the issue are things like car crashes, drunk drivers, or chili cheese fries and trough sized diet cokes with triple cheese burgers...or cancer. Hell, you have a higher risk of dying, even in the US, from just breathing than from either home invasion or by firearm.

So, that's really the answer...their perception of risk is geared towards what they fear, not towards analyzing all of the potential risks and addressing them in some sort of systematic way. Hell, risk is part of my job and I had a large sausage, pepperoni and extra cheese pizza for lunch (I didn't eat it all...I'm saving the rest for tonight ) with a huge coke and I plan to have my weekly cigar on Sunday, as always.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:19 PM
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First, the guns I have are sporting firearms, not self-defense ones, so I don't really have a ideological dog in this fight.

But I'd think if I lived somewhere where I was far enough from cops/sheriffs to warrant needing a personal defense gun, I'd be far enough from medical services to warrant a defibrillator and other first aid type equipment as well. Actually I'd probably be more likely to buy the first aid/defibrillator stuff, as an armed intruder is essentially a random occurrence, but heart attacks get more likely as you age.

Last edited by bump; 02-13-2019 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:22 PM
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I know we disagreed in the other thread, but I think you nailed this one on your first post.

OP, I doubt you'll sway anyone with this line of reasoning. Besides, I think at the end of the day this is a culture war of sorts rather than a real policy issue. If you like guns, you just like them, despite the fact that in reality they're pretty much obsolete for civilian life in our modern society, and you don't care about any costs to society at large. If you don't like guns, you'll see that they are a net drain on society, and you'll be against them.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:26 PM
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... So gun owners, have you ever thought about buying an AED so you and your family could be prepared on your worst day? Why, or why not?
No, never really considered it. I'm still relatively young and healthy. I've got a moderate first aid kit at home and in my vehicle, but AED was not an item I've considered adding. I do live a whopping 0.3 miles from the closest hospital, so that's probably a factor too.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:32 PM
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OP, I doubt you'll sway anyone with this line of reasoning.
I'm not trying to sway anyone to do anything. I'm not in the AED sales business. I'm asking a question and seeking responses and insight.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:43 PM
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I'm not trying to sway anyone to do anything. I'm not in the AED sales business. I'm asking a question and seeking responses and insight.
But really you could pose the question without including guns and get similar answers. I'm overweight, hispanic (which has a higher risk of heart attack in the US), eat terribly, smoke and drink...basically, I'm a perfect storm of risk factors wrt heart attack (so if I go silent on this board some time, raise a glass to my memory ), part of my job is how to assess and evaluate as well as mitigate risk, and I don't have a defib kit or anything like that. I have no plan for this, aside from going to see the doc every once in a while. My WAG is, gun owner or no gun owner or someone who has chihuahuas instead of pit bulls, most folks don't have either a plan or a defib device or anything like that, regardless of the risk, because it's not something most people worry about (even if, like me, they should).

BTW, along the lines of the other part of your question, there is a hospital (2 actually) within, oh, say 10 miles of my house. There is also a fire station (volunteer though, so not always manned). The neared police station (sheriffs department) is nearly 20 miles away, unless we count tribal police who wouldn't respond into my area regardless. Not sure what that demonstrates, but thought I'd give you that data point too in case it's something you are looking for.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:49 PM
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I'm not trying to sway anyone to do anything. I'm not in the AED sales business. I'm asking a question and seeking responses and insight.
Well, the answer is that very few people buy a gun because they want to defend themselves. They buy a gun because they want to go sports shooting, or they want to hunt, or they think guns are just cool, or they like the way it looks on the wall.

There are some people who actually buy guns for self defense, often after a trauma or something. But that's not how most people end up buying a gun.
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:03 PM
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I know that.

ETA: would you like to answer the OP?

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Old 02-13-2019, 04:07 PM
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I know that.

ETA: would you like to answer the OP?
Sure, I'm not a gun owner (nor would I ever be one, bar the collapse of society and a descent into barbarism) and I have no plans for a heart attack
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:22 PM
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Depending on whose statistics you believe
Isn't that a bit vague for GD? How about you actually post some so we can judge their credibility?

For example, if I lived in America I'd prefer the gun if I were young and the defibrillator if I were old.
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:25 PM
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The chance of being killed, even in the US by a fire arm is minuscule compared to many day to day things we do, yet some folks fret about it.
In terms of sudden, traumatic death, "miniscule" is clearly wrong. Gun deaths are the fourth most prevalent type of injurious death in the United States, behind poisonings/drug overdoses, car accidents, and falls, and they are not that far behind. Those four are way ahead of anything else.
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:29 PM
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In terms of sudden, traumatic death, "miniscule" is clearly wrong. Gun deaths are the fourth most prevalent type of injurious death in the United States, behind poisonings/drug overdoses, car accidents, and falls, and they are not that far behind. Those four are way ahead of anything else.
That's really cherry picking the data, though. In terms of number of deaths, it's pretty far down the list, even in the US which has one of the highest per capita for fire arms ownership in the world. You can always tweak the stats to show what you want to, but in terms of things that are likely to actually kill the average American (violent or not), it's one that is low on the list.

It's not even in the top 10 in the US: https://www.healthline.com/health/le...eath#accidents
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:34 PM
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Nitpick: Defibrillators are helpful in restoring a heart to its normal rhythm in the case of a sudden cardiac arrest. Heart attacks may lead to cardiac arrest, but defibrillation is otherwise useless in treating a heart attack.
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:39 PM
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That's really cherry picking the data, though. In terms of number of deaths, it's pretty far down the list, even in the US which has one of the highest per capita for fire arms ownership in the world. You can always tweak the stats to show what you want to, but in terms of things that are likely to actually kill the average American (violent or not), it's one that is low on the list.
IIRC, total suicides are 10th among death rates with 14 per 100,000, and gun suicides are around 7/100,000, and gun homicides are a little more than 4.5 per 100,000

By comparison, heart disease is #1 with 165 per 100,000.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...evels-cdc-2017

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db328.htm
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Old 02-13-2019, 05:24 PM
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Well, the answer is that very few people buy a gun because they want to defend themselves. They buy a gun because they want to go sports shooting, or they want to hunt, or they think guns are just cool, or they like the way it looks on the wall.

There are some people who actually buy guns for self defense, often after a trauma or something. But that's not how most people end up buying a gun.
This is very wrong. Protection is the #1 reason why people own a gun. If you want to quibble about buy vs. own, then there's that. But it's been a significant reason for quite some time.
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Old 02-13-2019, 05:24 PM
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Isn't that a bit vague for GD? How about you actually post some so we can judge their credibility?
Because arguing over the frequency of either one isnít the point of the thread. If you want to fight the hypothetical, youíre welcome to do so; but I wonít engage in that because it isnít interesting.
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Old 02-13-2019, 05:25 PM
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By comparison, heart disease is #1 with 165 per 100,000.
But most deaths due to heart disease aren't preventable with the use of external defibrillators. Most cardiac arrest victims can't even be saved by a defibrillator as most aren't due to abnormal rhythms that are shockable (and some cardiac arrests aren't due to heart disease).
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Old 02-13-2019, 05:33 PM
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Because arguing over the frequency of either one isnít the point of the thread. If you want to fight the hypothetical, youíre welcome to do so; but I wonít engage in that because it isnít interesting.
I'm sure arguing over the frequency of either wasn't your point, but how useful AEDs would be in saving lives as compared to defensive gun uses inside and outside of the home was relevant to your OP. Quartz's request is reasonable as comparing usefulness requires statistics.
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Old 02-13-2019, 05:41 PM
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Quite a few gun rights advocates say that a firearm is essential for their safety, as they may be a long way from emergency services. This came up a couple times in the neighboring thread about home defense.
I know I'm an outlier, but I displayed (never fired, never pointed) a firearm five times in the 11 years I lived in north Minneapolis (1991-2002) to deter burglars. I don't feel the need to detail those incidents yet again. I was in the city, not any distance from services.

It isn't exactly the myth made out to be by gun control enthusiasts.

OTOH, I haven't needed to do the same since then, living in a different neighborhood and then the suburbs.
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Old 02-13-2019, 06:01 PM
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Crime has dropped significantly since the early '90's too.
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Old 02-13-2019, 06:39 PM
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OP, I doubt you'll sway anyone with this line of reasoning.
Why not? It's a swell line of reasoning!

If guns are so essential for self-protection, how come on the TV channels that show "Perry Mason", "Matlock" and other old geezer shows, they never have ads for Glock and Remington, but lots for medic alert bracelets and bladder leak containment wear?

It's incontrovertible!!!
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:00 PM
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I'm sure arguing over the frequency of either wasn't your point, but how useful AEDs would be in saving lives as compared to defensive gun uses inside and outside of the home was relevant to your OP. Quartz's request is reasonable as comparing usefulness requires statistics.
If someone wants to say that they have determined the risk is low - whether because of the usefulness of AEDs or because they are at zero risk of heart disease (which HD kind of implied) then Iím not going to argue that everyone needs an AED or that a poster Ian about to drop dead.

But I would be interested to see how they do their math on those counts. It would be informative to me.
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:29 PM
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Well, the answer is that very few people buy a gun because they want to defend themselves. They buy a gun because they want to go sports shooting, or they want to hunt, or they think guns are just cool, or they like the way it looks on the wall.

There are some people who actually buy guns for self defense, often after a trauma or something. But that's not how most people end up buying a gun.
That's not what the statistics show. 67% of gun owners (71% of rural gun owners) cite "protection" as a major reason why they own guns. It is the top reason given by a long way.
cite
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:45 PM
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If someone wants to say that they have determined the risk is low -
Your OP hinges on the frequency of the life saving-ness of AEDs being "roughly as common as defensive gun uses inside and outside of the home." However, you made the mistake of equating the usefulness of AEDs to the number of heart attacks that occur.

If, for instance, the usefulness of AEDs is determined to be far less common than the usefulness of defensive gun uses, then the point is moot. You may find comparing statistics uninteresting, but they're very relevant.
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:54 PM
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Why people do things, why people think they do things, and why people say they do things are three different things.
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:57 PM
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AEDs are a pretty obscure item. They don't fix all heart attacks, only the specific condition of tachycardia and fibrillation, right? And I'm guessing you couldn't effectively apply them yourself. And even then, it just keeps you alive long enough ideally for medical help to arrive. So these aren't magic heart attack saving boxes, it's not clear that owning one in a home as an individual is a very useful plan.

So why don't we draw a closer comparison? Fire extinguishers. Simple, common, easy to store, available whenever you need it, no special training required, second person not required, follow on emergency care not generally required. You just use them in the unlikely event you need them, and they generally solve the problem they were created to solve. The analogy is far more perfect in this case than with an AED.

This is a silly thread. I guess gun owners are all hypocrites if they don't own an AED, which is not something that I've heard medical professionals advocate for being as a normal piece of equipment in the average home, because hey, if you think you need a tool to help you in one emergency, you need tools to be able to help yourself in every kind of emergency, or you're a hypocrite I guess.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:15 PM
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They don't fix all heart attacks
None of them.

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only the specific condition of tachycardia and fibrillation, right?
And only specific types of those conditions.

Quote:
And I'm guessing you couldn't effectively apply them yourself.
You can.

https://www.heart.org/-/media/data-i...ucm_300340.pdf


Quote:
And even then, it just keeps you alive long enough ideally for medical help to arrive.
I wouldn't call that a "just." The chances of survival after defibrillator use following a shockable abnormal rhythm are much greater than no defibrillator use.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:48 PM
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And I'm guessing you couldn't effectively apply them yourself.
I think I misunderstood your statement. No, when one needs to use a defibrillator, he won't be able to use it on himself.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:57 PM
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That's not what the statistics show. 67% of gun owners (71% of rural gun owners) cite "protection" as a major reason why they own guns. It is the top reason given by a long way.
cite
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Why people do things, why people think they do things, and why people say they do things are three different things.
Assuming Chronos was responding to the above quote, I agree.

Also, the results of that linked to survey don't necessarily refute Babale's claim as they are major reasons, and not the major reason. For instance, suppose someone bought a gun because his job requires it and otherwise wouldn't have, he still might check off "protection" as a major reason for having one. The same for someone that specifically bought it for hunting, etc.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:39 PM
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My firearms are for recreational shooting, not home/self defense purposes, though several could double up, duty-wise, with no trouble. But home/self defense wasn't the reason I bought them, nor the reason I continue to own them.

I do believe in being prepared for eventualities, so I do have a decent home first aid kit, as well as smoke/fire detectors and two fire extinguishers. I have a good roadside emergency kit in my car, as well.

I don't have plan for a heart attack. I passed my last physical with flying colors (BP was a touch high, but well within the healthy range for my age). My cholesterol was so good, my Doctor was sure there was some mistake.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:49 PM
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My cholesterol was so good, my Doctor was sure there was some mistake.
Lol. Same here. I get it checked every year like clockwork, it's always low and they always look at me like I'm gaming the system or something.

I didn't purchase any of my guns for self-protection. I purchased them for hunting (which I haven't done in 30 years now) and for recreational shooting (which I enjoy).
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Old 02-14-2019, 03:45 AM
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Because arguing over the frequency of either one isn’t the point of the thread. If you want to fight the hypothetical, you’re welcome to do so; but I won’t engage in that because it isn’t interesting.
Sorry, but this is GD, not the Pit or IMHO.

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Old 02-14-2019, 06:31 AM
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So gun owners, have you ever thought about buying an AED so you and your family could be prepared on your worst day? Why, or why not?
I've had a heart attack as well as multiple episodes of unstable angina. I kind of blew the episodes off until seeking medical advice over a month later.

I don't want an AED. My next cardiac malfunction will be my last.
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Old 02-14-2019, 07:19 AM
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I own a gun for home protection. In my case buying it was not based on a statistical decision. I doubt it ever is, since home invasion frequencies would make it a sort of sick lottery to enter.

There is a matter of principal that if someone is coming into my home to do me or my family harm - I want to be able to fight back. I refuse to let that human take away my right to live peacefully without me at least having the ability to put up a fight regardless of outcome. I get an opportunity to decide if another human being is going to do me harm in my own home.

If I have a heart attack... well, then that is just bad luck but at least a natural event is occurring to me rather than a malicious human being who has decided that stealing my property/doing me harm/whatever is more important than me continuing to live my peaceful life.

In short, it is a matter of principal. That said if defibrillators were cheap enough sure I might buy one. I own fancy smoke detectors and several up-to-date fire extinguishers because I'm paranoid of a house fire too despite it having a low probability of occurring.
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Old 02-14-2019, 08:08 AM
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It's not even in the top 10 in the US: https://www.healthline.com/health/le...eath#accidents
Oh, well, you're going with just gun accidents now and then comparing it to things like cancer; yes, if we use the term "accidents" it drops very low on the list, because a homicide or suicide is not an accident, and a huge portion of people who die are old people who die of cancer and heart disease. I was simply going with all causes of injurious death, in which case guns are fourth.

When AEDs started being installed everywhere I was quite skeptical, but many, many sources say they have saved hundreds of lives. I find that shocking (haaaaa!) but a lot of different authorities have studied in in detail and come to the same conclusion.

The question, though, is whether saving a few hundred lives - the rough approximation for the USA - is worth the cost. AEDs ain't cheap. Everything has an opportunity cost.
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Old 02-14-2019, 08:52 AM
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But most deaths due to heart disease aren't preventable with the use of external defibrillators. Most cardiac arrest victims can't even be saved by a defibrillator as most aren't due to abnormal rhythms that are shockable (and some cardiac arrests aren't due to heart disease).
https://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/heart_attack.htm

Even at that, the number of heart attacks (fatal and non-fatal) dwarfs the number of gun deaths from all causes by twenty times.

I haven't been able to find any exact numbers, but it stands to reason that having a defibrillator on hand is a much more sensible thing in terms of preserving one's life, especially if you live in a remote area and/or are older.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:31 AM
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https://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/heart_attack.htm

Even at that, the number of heart attacks (fatal and non-fatal) dwarfs the number of gun deaths from all causes by twenty times.

I haven't been able to find any exact numbers, but it stands to reason that having a defibrillator on hand is a much more sensible thing in terms of preserving one's life, especially if you live in a remote area and/or are older.
Read post 14. It seems you missed it.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:37 AM
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I often use this same line of reasoning with hikers who carry guns for protection. I ask them if they are carrying a flashlight and/or rescue beacon, or even an Epi-Pen, which weigh much less and are statistically more likely to save your life. Some people have thought it through and carry multiple emergency items, others are fixated on defending themselves from unlikely human attack (or even more unlikely animal attack).

When choosing to carry things while hiking weight is pretty important, but feeling in control of a situation is a bigger factor for many people.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:46 AM
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Oh, well, you're going with just gun accidents now and then comparing it to things like cancer; yes, if we use the term "accidents" it drops very low on the list, because a homicide or suicide is not an accident, and a huge portion of people who die are old people who die of cancer and heart disease. I was simply going with all causes of injurious death, in which case guns are fourth.

When AEDs started being installed everywhere I was quite skeptical, but many, many sources say they have saved hundreds of lives. I find that shocking (haaaaa!) but a lot of different authorities have studied in in detail and come to the same conclusion.

The question, though, is whether saving a few hundred lives - the rough approximation for the USA - is worth the cost. AEDs ain't cheap. Everything has an opportunity cost.
Didn't actually open the cite, ehe? No, I'm not going by just gun accidents...the cite was to show what the major causes of death in the US are. I was talking about murders, however (gun accidents are extremely small in the US...less than a thousand a year. I think they are on par with tooth pick choking events or TV crushing events, IIRC). The total number of murders in the US (with and without guns) was around 17K (6K or more were from non-gun related murders). Now, go back and actually click that link...the lowest on the list in there was Chronic Liver Disease (number 12) at nearly 40K. I'm no math wiz, but I THINK 40K is more than 17K...by quite a lot, really. I'm sure at this point you want to bundle in all of the suicides as well to really pump those gun deaths numbers up, but suicides are a separate category and, IMHO, are a sunk cost...IOW, IMHO they would happen anyway, and half of the suicides that happen don't involve a gun. Even putting gun murders with suicides you get less than 40K a year....IOW, less than the 12th most common means of death in the US. I'd say that, even cherry picking the data, my original point stands.

Sure, if you want to really cherry pick and go with violent death (which is rare in the US wrt what people actually die from), then guns are in 4th...but that is spinning the data to show what you want to show. Compared to the things that kill actual Americans every year, it's way down the list. But folks THINK it's huge (I can recall asking people what they thought the number of murders in the US was in some of my risk classes, and getting answers like 1 million...or 5 million...or more...and total disbelief when I said, no, it's closer to 20K for all types).

To recap, people, even really smart people, are just terrible at risk assessment. They worry about low probability events happening to them while blithely running risks in their every day lives that have a much higher probability of killing or injuring them. The classic example I use is the guy who drives to work every day chugging down a coffee, driving aggressively, tail gating while listening to loud music on his blue tooth head set worries about the plane he plans to take on his once a year trip to see his mother crashing.

This isn't to say we should not worry or do nothing about gun deaths in the US. We should. But I wish people could put this in some kind of perspective. I'm sure now I'll hear how in other countries they don't have this issue, but, really, they have other things usually that are a higher risk and tend to kill as many or more per capita than guns do in the US.
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Last edited by XT; 02-14-2019 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:48 AM
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AEDs are a pretty obscure item. They don't fix all heart attacks, only the specific condition of tachycardia and fibrillation, right?
Actually, quite a few people at risk of heart attacks (specifically arrhythmias) do in fact purchase a defibrillator. It's surgically implanted just under the skin on the chest wall, and serves to kick things back to a normal rhythm if the heart goes wonky.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:59 AM
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^ An AED is an external defibrillator. And again, an arrhythmia is not a type of heart attack.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:05 AM
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When choosing to carry things while hiking weight is pretty important, but feeling in control of a situation is a bigger factor for many people.
In the hiking example, weight is a factor. You could say "the weight of your gun might be better spent in extra water or rescue gear", fair enough. I think this is something you can make a case for, rather than being something clear cut. A gun, after all, can be used to deter human aggression, animal aggression, be used for signalling, and could be used to hunt with. It's a pretty versatile piece of survival gear.

But in the OP's example, there's no practical limit to the amount of contingency gear you can have in your home. So what's his point? "If you don't have an AED, but you have a gun, you're a hypocrite"? Not only is this line of reasoning flawed, what's it even supposed to mean even if it were true? It just seems like a really weird, ineffective, and nonsensical way to attack gun owners.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:15 AM
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So what's his point? "If you don't have an AED, but you have a gun, you're a hypocrite"? Not only is this line of reasoning flawed, what's it even supposed to mean even if it were true? It just seems like a really weird, ineffective, and nonsensical way to attack gun owners.
Except that I'm not attacking gun owners. I would suggest that you not project whatever your agenda is onto me.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:21 AM
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You're trying to say that gun owners are all irrational because a gun is less likely to save you than an AED. The rest of the thread calls that into question, concerning the utility of AEDs for home use, but you're just dancing around trying to imply a point.

Why not ask "people who wear a seatbelt, what's your plan for an accidental poisoning?" - it's about as meaningful a question.

If you think owning an AED in your home is a great and cost effective and improvement to safety, why aren't you asking the general public why they don't own one? Why gun owners specifically?
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:21 AM
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ISo what's his point? "If you don't have an AED, but you have a gun, you're a hypocrite"?
I missed the edit window:

And in terms of calling people hypocrites, that's not really my bag. If you were to look through my posting record, I'll bet you anything that my record of calling BS on people getting worked up about supposed hypocrisy far, far, FAR outnumbers any time I had criticized someone as being a hypocrite themselves. (In fact, I would be surprised if I ever made such a charge, but after 30,000 posts or whatever I'm up to, there's definitely a chance I may have said something so facile and stupid.) If anything, I've frequently used the quote, "Hypocrites can still be right." So no, I'm not charging anyone with hypocrisy, as much as you'd like to think so.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
You're trying to say that gun owners are all irrational because a gun is less likely to save you than an AED. ...

If you think owning an AED in your home is a great and cost effective and improvement to safety, why aren't you asking the general public why they don't own one? Why gun owners specifically?
I'll ask you one more time not to project your agenda on me. Clearly, you are suffering some kind of insecurity about this issue, and you seek to use it to attack me -- but that's not my problem.

The other thread in GD started by Urbanredneck was an interesting one, I thought, because it illuminated an issue of how people see risk. It also tied into many other issues of how people view themselves, like to what degree they seek to be self-sufficient, even in crises.

If you'll note in that other thread, I did not attack the OP for having an agenda. Others on either side of the home defense issue did bring their baggage into the discussion. But my contribution to that thread was an honest response to the OP's question, and I note there's been quite a few interesting responses to my question in this thread.

Why did I post this thread in GD? For no other reason than I assumed that since the other thread wasn't moved to IMHO, this one should be in the same forum.

Last edited by Ravenman; 02-14-2019 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:30 AM
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Actually, quite a few people at risk of heart attacks (specifically arrhythmias) do in fact purchase a defibrillator. It's surgically implanted just under the skin on the chest wall, and serves to kick things back to a normal rhythm if the heart goes wonky.
Many of them are combined defib/pacemakers nowadays so they can deal with more problems.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:32 AM
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Aha, I didn't realize this was a... counter-thread? to another thread. Just seemed like a weird, out of the blue question with some sort unstated agenda. I wasn't aware of the other thread.

I still think you're refusing to state your agenda. You're trying to imply an AED is a smarter purchase for life risks than a gun. You point out that an AED and AR-15 cost the same amount. Or at least that they're in the same ballpark of risk and cost, so why buy one and not the other.

Maybe this is, as you say, basically an informal poll put in GD, but can you not see why your post appears to imply an agenda?

I don't see how my potential insecurities play a role in that interpretation. It's not like I'm against safety devices. Seat belts are great, fire extinguishers are great, guns can be great in the right situation, AEDs may be great but I've never seen a push for them to be available to the average home, so of all those potential emergency-resolving devices and the expectation that you should own one, that's the one that stands out to me.

If this thread doesn't actually have an agenda, then it just seems like a completely random question, akin to, as I said, "seat belt wearers, what's your plan for accidental poisoning?"

Last edited by SenorBeef; 02-14-2019 at 10:34 AM.
  #50  
Old 02-14-2019, 11:11 AM
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I have three guns in my home one of which could be practical for home defense. It was purchased for bear defense at a point in time where I was doing a lot of backpacking/hunting/fishing in a region where problem bears had been relocated to. I still carry it when ever I go into the back country.

We don't have an AED in the home but we get CPR certified every couple of years. I am much more likely to be home when my wife is there and CPR is useful in more scenarios then an AED. I think its a good idea to be prepared for a variety of scenarios.

As far as what do I carry into the back country I do carry a flashlight, fire making supplies and a shelter. I don't have a rescue beacon but I do give my planned coordinates to my wife before I leave I also carry two epi pens and typically an extra days worth of food. The people who just wander back with a fanny pack and a sandwich amaze me unless they are with large groups.
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