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Old 02-15-2019, 02:52 PM
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Jonathan Chance, what's with the defensiveness over some polls?


jsc1953 has festooned Elections with several "March Madness" polls related to the 2020 Dem primaries. A couple (but not all) of those poll threads have included some responses questioning the logic of the seedings. Notice that I said not all.

Yet immediately in storms Jonathan Chance on his white charger, he (JC, not the horse) of the annoying throat clearing (buy some Hall's for chrissake!), to demand everyone "stop bitching" about the seedings. In every one of these threads. Even in threads where there wasn't any kvetching or, as he prefers it, "bitching":

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
Everyone stop bitching about the seedings. No one’s forcing you to vote.

Let it be a fun distraction during the doldrums. We could do one every quarter or so until things get serious in January.
And now he's even warned someone who just reiterated that yeah, the seedings are weird. Is this "fun distraction during the doldrums" really so serious that a fairly mild cavil over the seeding is worth a frickin' warning? Yeah, he disobeyed your instructions but it was incredibly non-confrontational. Not only that, the poster is ordered to stay out of the threads entirely! So much for "fun distraction." Look at this exchange:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky View Post
If you set it up so the final two are a top contender against a neverwas, the whole thing loses its appeal. Needs to be redone, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
What did I just say?

Warning issued. And you're directed to stay out of these threads.
WTF, dude? And come clean: are you the OP of these threads (note the coincidental initials in the OP's username), or maybe related to them in some way? Because your warnings and obligatory phlegm-spewing preface are awful quick to rise to their defense. And if so, are Mods allowed to have duplicate usernames, which for the rest of us peons are called "socks?"

Last edited by choie; 02-15-2019 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 02-15-2019, 02:55 PM
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Yeah, I noticed that too. It seems like a weirdly over the top reaction. A few mild complaints about the seeding don't deserve warnings and thread-bans.
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Old 02-15-2019, 02:57 PM
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The complaint was in enough of the threads that it made sense to pre-emptively put the note in all of them.

And no, mods are not allowed to have socks. It's almost like names starting with "J" are common, or something.
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Old 02-15-2019, 03:04 PM
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BigAppleBucky is right, nevertheless. Pitting Sanders against Biden immediately screws the pooch.
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Old 02-15-2019, 03:07 PM
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People have complained about poll selections since polls were invented, and certainly since the SDMB has allowed them. Have these complaints been moderated in the past?
  #6  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:20 PM
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Nine similar threads flooding a discussion forum gets enthusiastic approval, but a little "bitching" draws a warning?
  #7  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:47 PM
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It's the fact that, immediately following my mod note, he continued to complain that got him the warning. There's no way that wasn't a violation of the issue. He earned the warning, plain and simple.

It wasn't a 'mild cavil'. It was active, similar complaints in multiple threads. That's not a complaint. That's an attempt to derail a thread and prevent it from being something enjoyable for our members. I decided that was detrimental to the threads and headed it off.

And what's with the sock accusation? I've no buy-in there except it's perfectly legit to start those threads. It'll be fun and distracting during this silly season where everyone's declaring but no one's really running.
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Old 02-15-2019, 03:51 PM
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It looks like the warning was for not obeying moderator instructions. There were no warnings for dropping turds in multiple threads. I think a preemptive note in the other threads was a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky View Post
If you set it up so the final two are a top contender against a neverwas, the whole thing loses its appeal. Needs to be redone, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky View Post
Bad choice for me since Brown and Warren are my two early personal favorites.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky View Post
Who cares. Very poor seeding being done here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky View Post
Yet another poor pairing. This whole thing was set up terribly.
  #9  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
That's an attempt to derail a thread and prevent it from being something enjoyable for our members. I decided that was detrimental to the threads and headed it off.

And what's with the sock accusation? I've no buy-in there except it's perfectly legit to start those threads. It'll be fun and distracting during this silly season where everyone's declaring but no one's really running.
Maybe complaining about the seedings is part of the fun. Seems like it's just not the kind of fun you prefer.

In any event, derailing threads is part and parcel of this board, particularly polls. I don't remember many that haven't had a "I wish you'd included xxxx instead of yyyy" comment, followed by some discussion of xxxx.

Over the top reaction. Ridiculous, in fact.
  #10  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:57 PM
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NM

Last edited by CarnalK; 02-15-2019 at 03:59 PM.
  #11  
Old 02-15-2019, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
Maybe complaining about the seedings is part of the fun. Seems like it's just not the kind of fun you prefer.

In any event, derailing threads is part and parcel of this board, particularly polls. I don't remember many that haven't had a "I wish you'd included xxxx instead of yyyy" comment, followed by some discussion of xxxx.

Over the top reaction. Ridiculous, in fact.
Not if, as has been explained, the admonition was for disobeying mod instructions, not for bitching about the poll selections.
  #12  
Old 02-15-2019, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Not if, as has been explained, the admonition was for disobeying mod instructions, not for bitching about the poll selections.
Maybe JC shouldn't have been issuing those sorts of mod instructions in the first place.

Can we all add our own seeding threads, or are those 9 the ones we're using and that's it?

Last edited by GreysonCarlisle; 02-15-2019 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:09 PM
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No! You will have fun and distractiontm only the way i want you to!

Last edited by choie; 02-15-2019 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:12 PM
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If this were between two non-mod posters, would a warning have been issued?
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:12 PM
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Can we bitch about the seedings in an actual March Madness thread? Or is bitching about tournament seeding off limits in general now? Because it seems complaining/debating about the seeds is pretty much part of a tournament's discussion, even if it is seen by some as "bitching."
  #16  
Old 02-15-2019, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
Maybe JC shouldn't have been issuing those sorts of mod instructions in the first place.

Can we all add our own seeding threads, or are those 9 the ones we're using and that's it?
There's a big difference between "I wish you had included X" or "I wish you match Y against Z" versus what was actually said: "Who cares" and "Yet another poor pairing. This whole thing was set up terribly."

The first type of comments probably are fine. The second are threadshits and are frequently modded.
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutMan View Post
The first type of comments probably are fine. The second are threadshits and are frequently modded.
I don't see them as threadshitting. That'd be something along the lines of "Guessing now is stupid. Why even bother?"

The ones you mentioned were mere complaints.
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
That's an attempt to derail a thread and prevent it from being something enjoyable for our members. I decided that was detrimental to the threads and headed it off.
Well for what it's worth, seeing the same copypasta from you in every thread within the first 5 posts turned me off from posting in them and ruined* my enjoyment of them.

*No flowers are necessary. I shall soldier on.
  #19  
Old 02-15-2019, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
I don't see them as threadshitting. That'd be something along the lines of "Guessing now is stupid. Why even bother?"

The ones you mentioned were mere complaints.
"Who cares?" is the very first example given in the rules against threadshitting.
  #20  
Old 02-15-2019, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutMan View Post
"Who cares?" is the very first example given in the rules against threadshitting.
The post in question, though, goes on to be entirely a complaint about the seeding. The phrase is not automatically a threadshit.
  #21  
Old 02-15-2019, 04:41 PM
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You could argue that Bucky was threadshitting with "who cares". But why not warn/note him specifically in that thread instead of telling everyone in every thread that the whole topic was out of bounds?

For example, in this thread, jsc and I were having a discussion on the seeding which I wouldn't call "bitching" in any sense of the word:
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=870829
  #22  
Old 02-15-2019, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
The post in question, though, goes on to be entirely a complaint about the seeding. The phrase is not automatically a threadshit.
This. And it's ridiculous to be upset about similar posts being made in all 9 threads because maybe 9 similar responses are a bit over the top, but the same argument could be made about 9 similar OPs...
  #23  
Old 02-15-2019, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Lendervedder View Post
Can we bitch about the seedings in an actual March Madness thread? Or is bitching about tournament seeding off limits in general now? Because it seems complaining/debating about the seeds is pretty much part of a tournament's discussion, even if it is seen by some as "bitching."
I actually suggested such would be a good idea to jsc in a PM. I still think it would be.

I'd also use that to help him better handle seeding in the future if you truly want to have input and make the process better. I think there could be a series of these moving forward so we can track how the SDMB supports various candidates over time. They're all - or most - going to be in the race through Christmas at least. So might as well see how it changes over time.

So go ahead and provide input there.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=870828
  #24  
Old 02-15-2019, 05:09 PM
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Mid-thread rule-making and subsequent warnings is just lazy moderation. Never seen it on other boards.
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Old 02-15-2019, 05:48 PM
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There are other boards?

  #26  
Old 02-15-2019, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
People have complained about poll selections since polls were invented, and certainly since the SDMB has allowed them. Have these complaints been moderated in the past?
How funny that you should ask .

As a matter of fact, while there have been the occasional poll selection mod-complaines, only one ex-mod was pissier than hell about polls.

Either the posters didn't accept the basic premises of the poll and would quibble/kibbutz/discuss (and on a DISCUSSION BOARD of all things) and he'd yell/note/warn them, or the poll itself didn't show enough gravitas for something as sooper-serious as a internet poll and he'd close the poll and/or yell/note/warn the poll-poster. Or, my personal favorite, he closed a poll with "too many options" because it was too hard and made his haid hurt or something, Or < gasp > someone would share their opinions and reasoning in a poll and he'd go psycho and give mass warnings (IIRC, one thread had at least 4 warnings--official warnings, mind you. I believe Ed had to get involved in that particular piece of mod-stupidity)

He was so bad at modding that he even contradicted himself across four days, in one case saying the OP has absolute control over the type of responses he/she gets (discussion/no discussion) and in a different thread, said nope, the OP takes what he/she gets.

So...yeah, the vast moderation of polls came from terrible policies that only one very bad ex-mod made up based on his whim-du-jour, and I'm saddened to see JC, an otherwise good mod follow in the footsteps of the ex-mod.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...php?p=14098315
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...php?p=14097195
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=619313
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=592567

For just a teeny-tiny sample of the...<cough>...unique moderation style of this single ex-moderator that no other moderator has duplicated. Like most of the "rules" this ex-moderator made, once he was no longer a mod, his decisions have long since been forgotten except to deride them.

I'm glad you asked about this! It was fun answering and I hope you enjoyed the homework I did for you as much as I enjoyed doing your own homework for you.
  #27  
Old 02-15-2019, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Either the posters didn't accept the basic premises of the poll and would quibble/kibbutz/discuss (and on a DISCUSSION BOARD of all things)
Wow. They'd schlep to Israel just because of a faulty poll? Now that's what I call a hissy fit. Then again, at least it was productive.
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Old 02-16-2019, 07:19 AM
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So there’s a mod note, a poster obviously disregards this, and a warning is issued. Not sure why that would be any issue. If the mod note were inappropriate, this subforum woulda been the place to discuss that.
  #29  
Old 02-17-2019, 11:58 AM
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On a slightly related note, Jonathan, you suggested doing one of these every quarter.

If that's gonna happen, could it pretty please be a single thread with a poll where you can select multiple options? I have no interest in brackets/tournaments, and think it feeds into the worst sort of political thinking, where politics is treated like a team sport instead of as a discussion of policy. But I get that other folks enjoy this sort of thing.

Currently this nonsense is taking up half of the top dozen threads in Elections. It's clutter. If it were a single thread (ideally in the Thread Games forum, which is what it is after all), I wouldn't mind; but I like the elections forum, and don't like having a bunch of "POLITICS IS SPORTS" threads filling it up.
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:14 PM
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I agree that it is clutter. I thought that it was considered poor form for one poster to start so many threads on basically one subject all at once like that. Plus it makes it much more difficult to see other threads. Itís a mess and too early. Thereís way too many potential candidates at this point.
  #31  
Old 02-17-2019, 12:39 PM
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My 2 pennies: A few years ago, I did some March Madness-style threads (on Beatles songs, sitcoms, etc). I didn't use the poll feature. Just put the brackets/match-ups and people typically copied-and-pasted the bracket and for each match-up, chose which one they preferred. I tallied the votes, and the winner from each pairing moved on to the next round. This way, there's a thread for each round, but not for each match-up.
  #32  
Old 02-17-2019, 12:44 PM
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There are other boards?

Yes, but they suck.
  #33  
Old 02-17-2019, 02:06 PM
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I agree that it is clutter. I thought that it was considered poor form for one poster to start so many threads on basically one subject all at once like that. Plus it makes it much more difficult to see other threads. Itís a mess and too early. Thereís way too many potential candidates at this point.
Yeah the clutter jammed up Elections bad. Not nice.
  #34  
Old 02-17-2019, 07:07 PM
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Well for what it's worth, seeing the same copypasta from you in every thread within the first 5 posts turned me off from posting in them and ruined* my enjoyment of them.

*No flowers are necessary. I shall soldier on.
Seconded.

Moreover at first many of them did not include any notation that he was speaking ex moderatra and not just as a threadshitter complaining. Over and over again.

This was a clear example of the alleged treatment being much worse than the disease it was allegedly aimed at treating or preventing.

And a warning for a post that could have easily been a cross post?

Way over the top (IMHO).

Personally I was more wondering about having so many threads taking over Elections and changing it into a forum for that particular game being a bit questionable. It was enough that one poster initially put an Elections thread into GD to avoid being overrun by the variations of the game threads. These are not threads I would hold and say they give me joy. Not my call though.

In any case discussing the rules of the game is not threadshitting and anyone who doesn't want to read those posts can skip 'em.

Minimally such a discussion should be allowed in the intro to the game thread. Possibly that thread should be stickied for the duration of the game and the op of each match-up directing posters to that thread (with link of course) for an explanation of the rules and for any discussion of the rules.

But again, the directive was much much more annoying than any discussions about the nature of the seedings were or likely would have been.
  #35  
Old 02-18-2019, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Currently this nonsense is taking up half of the top dozen threads in Elections. It's clutter. If it were a single thread (ideally in the Thread Games forum, which is what it is after all), I wouldn't mind; but I like the elections forum, and don't like having a bunch of "POLITICS IS SPORTS" threads filling it up.
This please. Fifthed, I think. I was enjoying some threads in the Elections forum when that bunch of threads obscured them. It would be nice to have the poll threads in the Thread Games Forum.

As to the moderation, I agree with it. Having started several polls with people complaining about the conception of the set up, it's nice that people are getting reminded not to constantly do that. It serves no useful purpose and is just a drag on the thread.

ETA: I'm not sure it needed to be a warning, but the reminder was good.

Last edited by Heffalump and Roo; 02-18-2019 at 07:53 AM. Reason: second thoughts about the warning part
  #36  
Old 02-18-2019, 11:32 AM
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jsc is now talking about making an additional four threads for the next round. Could we instead have a single thread for this next round?

Even with one thread for each round, it'll mean five threads for this game, once a quarter; seems better suited for thread games than for Elections, for my money.
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