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Old 02-15-2019, 03:25 PM
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Mass shooting in Aurora, IL


https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7chi...-says/5140701/

Multiple casualties, including 4 police officers. No word if any fatalities. Shooter has been apprehended. Scary to see this in my hometown. Before we moved last year, this was 5 minutes from where we lived. My family is safe. Thankfully kids, my wife and I stayed home today.

ďThoughts and prayers ď 🙄
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Old 02-15-2019, 03:28 PM
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I used to live in Naperville. Scary stuff. I know we have a lot of Chicagoland people posting here. It must be pretty scary having this happen so close to home.
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:14 PM
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Suspect is in custody, so he must be white.
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:20 PM
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nm

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Old 02-15-2019, 04:22 PM
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Suspect had been neutralized. They wonít say if he is alive or dead.

One fatality confirmed. Could be the shooter.
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:24 PM
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The local news (WGN) here in Chicago is repeating CNN information that 12 civilians and 4 police officers were shot (no solid information yet on any fatalities among them).

They are also saying that the suspect is dead, though it's not known if he was killed by police, or killed himself.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 02-15-2019 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:48 PM
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Suspect is in custody, so he must be white.
Moderating:

This is a breaking news thread. Leave comments like that out.
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:53 PM
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WGN is now reporting that press conferences from the authorities have been pushed back to 5:30pm CST.
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Old 02-15-2019, 05:35 PM
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An active shooter reported Friday afternoon at Henry Pratt Co. in Aurora is dead, law enforcement sources said...

An employee named John Probst told ABC-7 he was in the building when the shooting took place. He identified the gunman as a co-worker.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...217-story.html

Thus apparently workplace violence.

Last edited by PastTense; 02-15-2019 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 02-15-2019, 05:41 PM
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Press conference has begun. The Aurora police chief says that 5 civilians are deceased, and that the police shot and killed the shooter. She also says that a total of five police officers were shot (plus a sixth who suffered a knee injury during the event).

Last edited by kenobi 65; 02-15-2019 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 02-15-2019, 05:57 PM
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The shooter has been identified as a man named Gary Martin, age 45. His mother spoke to the Sun-Times, indicating that he had been laid off two weeks ago, and was "way too stressed out."

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/ac...urora-factory/

Last edited by kenobi 65; 02-15-2019 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 02-15-2019, 06:10 PM
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WLS is reporting that the shooter had apparently been scheduled to attend a "job action" meeting today (likely to be laid off or fired).
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:21 AM
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The more I read about the shooter, the more thankful I am that he is dead.
5 Facts About Gary Martin
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:14 AM
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According to a news story, one of his prior offenses was "illegally altering car speakers". What could that mean?
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:21 AM
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According to a news story, one of his prior offenses was "illegally altering car speakers". What could that mean?
There are statutory limits to the amount of noise that can come from a vehicle.

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/auto...cle-noise-laws
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:30 AM
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It has been reported he was about to be fired or let go. Frankly I'm surprised these types of shootings, specifically the disgruntled employee types don't happen way more often.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:33 AM
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The more I read about the shooter, the more thankful I am that he is dead.
5 Facts About Gary Martin

Interesting list. How does this count as one thing? :


Quote:
Gary Martin Worked as a Valve Assembler at the Plant & Once Stabbed a Woman in Mississippi
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Old 02-16-2019, 11:31 AM
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Initial reports are that he chose to gun it out with the police unlike many shooters who get to the point where they are backed up and take their own life.

From a tactical perspective this situation is a nightmare. The police did what they were supposed to do, they didnít wait they went in within minutes of the call. Two of the first four officers through the door were shot. Then several others were shot. Apparently the building is massive. I work where there are many warehouses like that. There are at least hundreds of places to hide. Places where the gunman would have a clear shot of you but you have no idea where he is. The only way to do it is to head towards the sound of the gunfire and hope for the best. When the gunman was eliminated you canít assume heís the only one, the entire building would have to be cleared and every nook and cranny checked.
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Old 02-16-2019, 11:40 AM
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Any word on the weapon he used?
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Old 02-16-2019, 11:56 AM
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Any word on the weapon he used?
Quote:
Martin was not supposed to own a gun because of a 1995 aggravated assault conviction in Mississippi, she said.

But he obtained one in Illinois in 2014. In January of that year, he applied for a firearms owner identification card, she said. In March 2014, he applied to buy a gun from a dealer in Aurora. After a waiting period and passing a background check that did not involve fingerprinting, he bought the gun, she said.

Later that month, he applied for a concealed carry permit, and a fingerprint check led authorities to discover the Mississippi conviction, Ziman said. The permit was rejected, and Illinois State Police sent him a letter demanding he voluntarily surrender the weapon, but he did not, the chief said. Investigators are trying to determine why he didn't surrender the weapon and whether law enforcement followed up with him to confiscate the gun...

Martin opened fire with a Smith & Wesson handgun...

He was "running down the aisle" with a pistol that had a green laser sight on it, John Probst said...
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/16/us/il...ing/index.html

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Old 02-16-2019, 12:04 PM
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Any word on the weapon he used?
More specifically a police page Iím on said a .40 cal Smith & Wesson.
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Old 02-16-2019, 12:54 PM
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Seems like he should have been put in prison for a more meaningful amount of time for prior offenses. Convicted of stabbing a woman....a bunch of prior arrests including domestic battery....5 people would still be alive if they'd thrown the book at him harder in the past. I'm typically a pretty big critic of the prison industrial complex and over-incarceration, but sometimes violent individuals just need to be contained, full stop.
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Old 02-16-2019, 01:47 PM
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Seems like he should have been put in prison for a more meaningful amount of time for prior offenses. Convicted of stabbing a woman....a bunch of prior arrests including domestic battery....5 people would still be alive if they'd thrown the book at him harder in the past. I'm typically a pretty big critic of the prison industrial complex and over-incarceration, but sometimes violent individuals just need to be contained, full stop.
Using hindsight you can say that. Itís hard to tell at this point circumstances behind his history. Thereís one felony for aggravated assault but thatís over 20 years old. Chances are given his history he would not be in prison now no matter what.
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Old 02-16-2019, 02:06 PM
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A bit of a hijack but I think it's interesting and relevant. This opinion piece in the New York Times is from a psychiatrist in Sacramento who discusses a teenage patient who threatened to slit the throat of a female classmate and whose Instagram account included photos of the guy who killed people in a church in Charleston with the word "hero" below it and also had a photo of his school with a caption reading "Columbine 2.0". In short he could be a future school shooter.

Sometimes there are warning signs that someone is a potential mass shooter. What do we do in such cases?
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Old 02-16-2019, 02:13 PM
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A bit of a hijack but I think it's interesting and relevant. This opinion piece in the New York Times is from a psychiatrist in Sacramento who discusses a teenage patient who threatened to slit the throat of a female classmate and whose Instagram account included photos of the guy who killed people in a church in Charleston with the word "hero" below it and also had a photo of his school with a caption reading "Columbine 2.0". In short he could be a future school shooter.

Sometimes there are warning signs that someone is a potential mass shooter. What do we do in such cases?
Typically nothing. The Parkland shooter was throwing out signs like a fireworks show, but the authorities didn't do much of anything about it.
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Old 02-16-2019, 02:26 PM
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Typically nothing. The Parkland shooter was throwing out signs like a fireworks show, but the authorities didn't do much of anything about it.
But that one false negative doesn't tell us much about how to handle such cases if thousands of other people throw out similar signs and do nothing.
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Old 02-16-2019, 02:32 PM
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But that one false negative doesn't tell us much about how to handle such cases if thousands of other people throw out similar signs and do nothing.
Yup, that's why we typically do nothing: if 1/1000 people who seem dangerous end up hurting someone, it doesn't seem particularly just to lock up 1,000 people on a 0.1% chance they might be the one that's going to hurt people.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 02-16-2019 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 02-16-2019, 03:26 PM
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It looks like, in this case, the background check system which he went through to get a FOID failed (or was insufficient). I'm no expert on how Illinois handles these, but should it have flagged him for the assault conviction when he initially applied? If not, why not? If the fact that he was convicted in a different state is why, that seems to be a major flaw in the system.
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Old 02-16-2019, 04:00 PM
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Initial reports are that he chose to gun it out with the police unlike many shooters who get to the point where they are backed up and take their own life.

From a tactical perspective this situation is a nightmare. The police did what they were supposed to do, they didnít wait they went in within minutes of the call. Two of the first four officers through the door were shot. Then several others were shot. Apparently the building is massive. I work where there are many warehouses like that. There are at least hundreds of places to hide. Places where the gunman would have a clear shot of you but you have no idea where he is. The only way to do it is to head towards the sound of the gunfire and hope for the best. When the gunman was eliminated you canít assume heís the only one, the entire building would have to be cleared and every nook and cranny checked.
The company I work for maintains the fire alarm and sprinkler systems at this complex and Iíve been there many times. Think of it as an industrial strip mallóone building broken up into multiple spaces. The Henry Pratt space took up 29,000 sq ft. The spaces are irregularly shaped and there are multiple entry/exit points. If youíre not familiar with the layout itís easy to get lost. Itís a wonder the shooter didnít take out any more police.
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Old 02-16-2019, 06:19 PM
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I just heard on the news that the weapon he used was obtained legally, registered, AND was supposed to have been confiscated when he was convicted of that felony. This was never done.

So, you people who think gun confiscation under circumstances like this is the beginning of a slippery slope, what's your opinion about it now?

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Old 02-16-2019, 06:53 PM
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I just heard on the news that the weapon he used was obtained legally, registered, AND was supposed to have been confiscated when he was convicted of that felony. This was never done.
This is slightly inaccurate, as I understand it.

He was convicted of felony aggravated assault in Mississippi in 1995 (and served less than two years in prison). At some point after leaving prison, he moved to Illinois.

In early 2014, he applied for an Illinois FOID card. He passed the background check, was issued the card, and purchased the firearm. At some point later in 2014, he then applied for a concealed carry license -- at that point, he was fingerprinted (CCLs apparently requiring more detailed background checks), and that's when the Illinois authorities discovered his prior conviction (which disqualified him from holding a FOID).

At that point, his FOID card was revoked by the state of Illinois, and state policy is that he would have been sent a letter notifying him of this (and that a copy of the letter would have been sent to his local law enforcement office). As part of that, he was legally required to turn in or dispose of his gun (though he clearly did not do so, and the second link below indicates that this is not uncommon). It appears that, theoretically, the local police could have confiscated his gun at that point, but such confiscations are apparently not common.

Sources:
https://wgntv.com/2019/02/16/victims...ny-conviction/
https://wgntv.com/2019/02/16/aurora-...r-confiscated/

Last edited by kenobi 65; 02-16-2019 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 02-16-2019, 06:54 PM
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It looks like, in this case, the background check system which he went through to get a FOID failed (or was insufficient). I'm no expert on how Illinois handles these, but should it have flagged him for the assault conviction when he initially applied? If not, why not? If the fact that he was convicted in a different state is why, that seems to be a major flaw in the system.
I donít know if it is still this way but apparently the check for a firearms ID did not include a fingerprint check. Criminal history is linked through the national fingerprint system used by law enforcement. His out of state conviction did not show up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nearwildheaven View Post
I just heard on the news that the weapon he used was obtained legally, registered, AND was supposed to have been confiscated when he was convicted of that felony. This was never done.

So, you people who think gun confiscation under circumstances like this is the beginning of a slippery slope, what's your opinion about it now?

He was convicted before he obtained the weapon. After he got the weapon he applied for a concealed carry permit. The check for that included a fingerprint check. That background check did turn up his conviction. His application was denied and he was told to turn in his weapon since he was never supposed to have it in the first place. The questions being asked now why there was never a follow-up to that request.
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:53 PM
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Even though I guess they theoretically should I don't think cops tend to show up to the houses of persons with certain convictions to confiscate their firearms. Aren't people with domestic violence convictions supposed to be barred from possessing firearms or something? Even if you knew such a person, knew they had a firearm, and reported it, depending where you are in the country the local police may not pursue it.
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Last edited by pool; 02-16-2019 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:51 AM
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I used to live in Naperville. Scary stuff. I know we have a lot of Chicagoland people posting here. It must be pretty scary having this happen so close to home.
Hmm - having lived/worked in the Chicago area most of my life, having this occur in a city of 200K 45+ min SW of Chicago doesn't scare me any more/less than if it had occurred in California, or closer to home. Might make some folk second guess a choice of HR as a career, tho.

In today's paper, it said that when his FOID was revoked, he was sent a letter, asking him to turn in his gun. Apparently compliance is voluntary, and there is no follow-up. And if he hadn't applied for CC permit, he wouldn't have even gotten the letter. Great system!
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by pool View Post
Even though I guess they theoretically should I don't think cops tend to show up to the houses of persons with certain convictions to confiscate their firearms. Aren't people with domestic violence convictions supposed to be barred from possessing firearms or something? Even if you knew such a person, knew they had a firearm, and reported it, depending where you are in the country the local police may not pursue it.
I am not clear on that yet.

He was convicted of aggregate assault in the 90s. I havenít seen it stated it was domestic violence. Regardless under Ohio law he wasnít legally allowed to own a gun because he was a convicted felon.

I read somewhere he had been arrested for domestic assault but I didnít see where he was convicted.

I havenít read everything so maybe I missed it.
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:28 PM
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... Regardless under Ohio law he wasn’t legally allowed to own a gun because he was a convicted felon. ...
That's also a federal law.

Quote:
Identify Prohibited Persons

The Gun Control Act (GCA), codified at 18 U.S.C. ß 922(g), makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms or ammunition, to include any person:

convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
...
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/identif...ibited-persons

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 02-17-2019 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:19 PM
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So the FOID check didn't include a fingerprint check. Did he falsify his other identifying information, or is that just not checked, either? The purpose of a fingerprint check is to determine who someone is. But if you can do that without a fingerprint, it should be even easier to access the relevant databases.
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:30 PM
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So the FOID check didn't include a fingerprint check. Did he falsify his other identifying information, or is that just not checked, either? The purpose of a fingerprint check is to determine who someone is. But if you can do that without a fingerprint, it should be even easier to access the relevant databases.
Thereís no way to really answer that definitively. There are multiple databases. I donít think there is a way to find the answer as to what was checked. Their exact procedures in Ohio are probably governed by internal SOPs and not online. The easiest database to access only covers within the state. A national search is more difficult. Itís no excuse but I can see where human error can come into it.

Fingerprints are important because criminal history through NCIC is tracked specifically by when you are fingerprinted. Every time you are arrested for an offense that requires fingerprints it will show up in your record. When you are convicted it is then updated to show that conviction.
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:50 PM
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But the databases presumably don't use fingerprints as the primary key, since even for prints taken in a controlled circumstance like being booked at the police station or applying for a background check, they'll vary slightly. I'd expect the primary key to be a number of some sort, most likely social security. So it should be possible to check the databases using just that number. Using fingerprints is just to catch someone who manufactures a new identity so their past misdeeds won't be connected to them.
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Old 02-17-2019, 02:39 PM
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I read somewhere he had been arrested for domestic assault but I didn’t see where he was convicted.
See my links in post #31. Yes, he was convicted, and he served time for it.

From the second link in my earlier post:

"Martin received an Illinois Firearm Owner's Identification (FOID) card in January 2014. Two months later, Martin purchased a .40-caliber Smith & Wesson handgun, apparently the same weapon used in Friday's shooting. That's despite a 1995 conviction in Mississippi for aggravated assault. Records indicate Martin served less than two years in prison."

Also, you noted in post #35 that, "under Ohio law," he wouldn't have been able to legally own a firearm. I'm not sure what Ohio, specifically, has to do with anything -- he was convicted in Mississippi, and (unless I'm the one who's missing something) bought the gun (and was issued a FOID) in Illinois.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 02-17-2019 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:29 PM
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The aggravated assault conviction:
Quote:
Two decades before police said Gary Martin, 45, opened fire at his co-workers, he was convicted of aggravated assault in Mississippi. Authorities there said he regularly abused a former girlfriend, at one point, hitting her with a baseball bat and stabbing her with a knife.

"All I can remember is him hitting and kicking me, I can remember fighting and screaming for help. I remember him pushing my head into that brick wall outside the apartment and thinking that he was going to kill me," the woman told police in Mississippi in 1994, according to court records.

The incident led to Martin's arrest. He pleaded guilty and was sentenced to five years in prison, though records show he served less than three years.
https://www.inforum.com/news/crime-a...-gun-ownership
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:34 PM
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This sounds like yet another case where he kept finding cracks and slipping through them.
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:58 PM
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I am not clear on that yet.

He was convicted of aggregate assault in the 90s. I haven’t seen it stated it was domestic violence. Regardless under Ohio law he wasn’t legally allowed to own a gun because he was a convicted felon.

I read somewhere he had been arrested for domestic assault but I didn’t see where he was convicted.

I haven’t read everything so maybe I missed it.
I was using domestic violence charges as an example of a similar thing. Not quite sure but legally isn't a conviction of domestic violence supposed to keep you from possessing a firearm? But it's not like the police go around collecting guns from such people.
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Last edited by pool; 02-17-2019 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
See my links in post #31. Yes, he was convicted, and he served time for it.

From the second link in my earlier post:

"Martin received an Illinois Firearm Owner's Identification (FOID) card in January 2014. Two months later, Martin purchased a .40-caliber Smith & Wesson handgun, apparently the same weapon used in Friday's shooting. That's despite a 1995 conviction in Mississippi for aggravated assault. Records indicate Martin served less than two years in prison."

Also, you noted in post #35 that, "under Ohio law," he wouldn't have been able to legally own a firearm. I'm not sure what Ohio, specifically, has to do with anything -- he was convicted in Mississippi, and (unless I'm the one who's missing something) bought the gun (and was issued a FOID) in Illinois.
Sorry. My brain thought Illinois my fingers said Ohio for some reason.

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Originally Posted by pool View Post
I was using domestic violence charges as an example of a similar thing. Not quite sure but legally isn't a conviction of domestic violence supposed to keep you from possessing a firearm? But it's not like the police go around collecting guns from such people.
The so called Lautenberg Amendment goes beyond the already existing federal law that banned felons from owning guns. Under Lautenberg you are prohibited from owning a gun if convicted of a misdemeanor domestic violence assault. It also prohibits guns from being owned by those with a domestic violence restraining order.
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:50 PM
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The most disappointing thing about this case is that there is no follow up to make the offender surrender his firearm when it was discovered that he shouldnít possess one. More effort and resources should be dedicated to that.

Coincidentally an employee of mine is being terminated tomorrow after returning from a long leave. They were told they would be contacted by HR. Probably a better course of action than having them return to a facility.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:21 PM
bubba001 is offline
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I was surprised that they had him come in to be fired. My employer would fire you basically on the spot, remove you from the building, and you could not get back in the building unless it was resolved thru the union. I read that the union rep was killed also. I also read that he had been laid off for the prior 2 weeks? Guys, get it over with, dragging it out doesn’t help anyone.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:44 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubba001 View Post
I was surprised that they had him come in to be fired. My employer would fire you basically on the spot, remove you from the building, and you could not get back in the building unless it was resolved thru the union. I read that the union rep was killed also. I also read that he had been laid off for the prior 2 weeks? Guys, get it over with, dragging it out doesnít help anyone.
I'm wondering if some kind of investigation was going on, most likely theft.
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Old 02-19-2019, 12:04 AM
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I'm wondering if some kind of investigation was going on, most likely theft.

I just think they had zero security there. They had no procedure to fire someone. Or they didnít follow it. He was layed off for the previous 2 weeks, probably a DLO. Discplanry lay off. A union was involved, and the guy came in there hoping to be called back. He lost it, shot up the place. They could have sent him a certified letter? Maybe not, donít know their contract. There are steps in these contracts, and the guy knew where he stood. They should have fired him, rather than doing the layoff. Iíve been on both sides of this scene, drawing it out would suck. It sounds to me that he was hoping for some mercy, probably from the plant manager. Unless he witnessed whatever he was being fired for, why was he there? Generally, it is a personnel guy, and the union rep. Nobody wants spectators to their humiliation. My experience is that personnel folks really donít make these decisions, they just have to follow orders. Really, a terrible day for everyone.
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Old 02-19-2019, 08:53 PM
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I wonder why such workplace shootings get such media coverage. There are incidents where as many and more people are killed with guns every week. See the ever continuing mass-killing thread. Is it because it happened in a public place instead of someone's home or car? All these shootings are terrible-I just wonder why the workplace shootings get such press.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rbroome View Post
I wonder why such workplace shootings get such media coverage. There are incidents where as many and more people are killed with guns every week. See the ever continuing mass-killing thread. Is it because it happened in a public place instead of someone's home or car? All these shootings are terrible-I just wonder why the workplace shootings get such press.
It's the idea that a relatively normal situation - the termination of an employee - can result in 5 deaths, and scores of other lives ruined because of it.

What needs to be understood is that while we want to think of the gunman as a homicidal maniac - and you won't get any disagreement from me that he is - it's important to remember that a lot of mass shooters are suicidal. Murdering 5 or 10 people and then waiting to shoot it out with police is a suicidal act. People hellbent on getting themselves killed aren't going to be deterred by laws. I absolutely agree that more needs to be done to prevent suicidal people from possessing guns, but these people also need medical intervention, as well as a medical system and a society that encourages them to become better human beings.

Last edited by asahi; 02-19-2019 at 09:01 PM.
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