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Old 02-15-2019, 11:08 PM
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These morons should lose their driver's licenses for life


I'm not exaggerating. How can these people be so utterly stupid as to drive full freeway speed into an "open" middle lane when the two lanes on either side are at a standstill? Jesus.

https://twitter.com/dantej21/status/...Di1R6ky8DF2K-4
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Old 02-15-2019, 11:18 PM
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Yes, you are exaggerating. The fastest looks like no more than 25mph when it comes into view, less at impact, little traction to brake so they are aiming for the gap. Maybe they were still driving poorly for the visibility and road conditions, who knows what conditions were like in the preceding miles, but that's not remotely "full freeway speed".

Last edited by Riemann; 02-15-2019 at 11:21 PM.
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Old 02-15-2019, 11:18 PM
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I watched the whole video. I'm not so sure they were driving full bore so much as steering for gaps because the brakes aren't working.
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Old 02-15-2019, 11:26 PM
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I watched the whole video. I'm not so sure they were driving full bore so much as steering for gaps because the brakes aren't working.

They weren't sliding until the last moment. [ETA: Unless you mean the white truck at the end.] Do you live in a snowy state? I live in northern Minnesota, and I'd like to think no one up here would do this, or very few. I did use to live in Missouri, though, and there's enough snow down there so that people should know better.
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Old 02-16-2019, 12:54 AM
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It's called FOG. It limits visibility. There are generally any number of accidents like this every year, sometimes involving over 100 vehicles, because people aren't expecting traffic to come to a complete stop on a highway.
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Old 02-16-2019, 02:44 AM
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Pretty much the most important concept in driving is that you drive at a speed and with a gap that allows you to stop in time in case of a hazard on the road. If that means that you have to slow down because of bends, fog, snow, rain, congestion etc. then...........slow the fuck down. Those people who crashed have absolutely no excuse and should be judged harshly. Those conditions are bad enough that constant vigilance should be expected and the question "can I stop in time for stationary traffic?" should be uppermost.

So they don't deserve to lose their licence permanently but they should be charged and fined as the law dictates.
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Old 02-16-2019, 02:51 AM
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I was expecting *one* car doing what the OP describes. After watching the video, I'm amazed.
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Old 02-16-2019, 02:53 AM
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It's called FOG. It limits visibility. There are generally any number of accidents like this every year, sometimes involving over 100 vehicles, because people aren't expecting traffic to come to a complete stop on a highway.
No doubt they weren't expecting traffic to come to a complete stop, but that's the problem; they should've been.

I've driven in those conditions enough times to know that's exactly what can happen and drive accordingly. I doubt I drive at more than a quarter of the speed those cars were driving in fog and snow.
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Old 02-16-2019, 03:09 AM
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Glad to see the voices of reason have arrived!
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Old 02-16-2019, 03:34 AM
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Popping some flares before starting filming might have helped some...
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:41 AM
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I applaud the two semi drivers that managed to put it in the ditch instead of hitting the pile up. All in all, most where driving too fast for conditions. And someone may have been driving too SLOW for conditions, causing the pile up.

Pretty normal conditions for what I see in winter. I drive over the continental divide every day.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:21 AM
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I was expecting *one* car doing what the OP describes. After watching the video, I'm amazed.
Iíve been in a pile up type accident before. This looks a little like what I experienced. Our car hit a patch of black ice and we lost control and skidded, then we watched as every other car that came up the road behind us hit the exact same patch of ice and went into the exact same skid, landing in the exact same place, hitting our car which was off the road in a ditch. This wasnít really a classic chain reaction pile-up, as there were gaps of up to a full minute between cars but it was similar-ultimately 6 cars were involved

Itís hard to tell from the video, but it looks like the drivers may have lost control control of their cars before they entered the frame.

Or else the visibility was reduced and they didnít see the pile-up until it was too late. Establishing fault in a pile-up is very difficult and sometimes none of the drivers are at fault (like it was determined in my real life patch of ice example)
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:34 AM
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One person did die. She was a passenger in the blue SUV that was sandwiched from what I heard.

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Old 02-16-2019, 10:43 AM
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Another winter-time meet-up of the summer and "all-season" tire clubs.

Winter tires really ought to be mandatory in any jurisdiction that sees winter weather. https://www.wheels.ca/news/its-offic...ut-collisions/
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Old 02-16-2019, 12:10 PM
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I applaud the two semi drivers that managed to put it in the ditch instead of hitting the pile up.
This.

::shuddering to think had they not had the presence of mind to do so::
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Old 02-16-2019, 12:22 PM
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I was the second to last car in a 63 car pile-up in NH. I would have missed the whole thing if the guy behind me was able to stop in time. They happen pretty quickly.
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Old 02-16-2019, 03:19 PM
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Another winter-time meet-up of the summer and "all-season" tire clubs.

Winter tires really ought to be mandatory in any jurisdiction that sees winter weather. https://www.wheels.ca/news/its-offic...ut-collisions/
Agreed, they are mandatory in Germany and Austria from Nov-March and when we drive from the UK to go skiing we have to have them fitted. We were caught up in the big snowfalls this Christmas across Bavaria and Austria and they were absolutely invaluable.
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:21 PM
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Agreed, they are mandatory in Germany and Austria from Nov-March and when we drive from the UK to go skiing we have to have them fitted. We were caught up in the big snowfalls this Christmas across Bavaria and Austria and they were absolutely invaluable.
Colorado is getting a clue with required tires for cars and commercial vehicles must chain up.

My Wife and I run snow tires year round on our 4x4's (Bridgestone Blizzaks are the best we have found with Nokian Hakkapeliitta running a close second). Winter lasts so long, there is no point in changing them out. We get new ones every two years or about 30 thousand miles.

We get a lot of snow. I spent 4 hours today on my tractor and in my plow truck just cleaning up the driveway.
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:59 PM
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I think the OP is misjudging what happens when you hit an area with no traction when driving at highway speeds, and the drivers in question were surely surprised at their inability to stop as well.

I've had two slow speed collisions in the last 15 years here in Connecticut. In both cases, my vehicle hit an area with no traction, and despite all my efforts, I just glided on and on, until I hit something (a mailbox the first time, and a guard rail the second time).

The collision into the guard rail was more recent, and I remember just sliding and sliding. By the end, I was going so slowly that I was almost tempted to get out of the vehicle to try and stop it. (I didn't, of course.) Nevertheless, I still slid completely across an instersection (thankfully there was no cross traffic) and into a guard rail, striking it at 5-10 mph. The collision took out a turn signal and headlight, and caused about $900 in damage to my vehicle.

This collision was at the end of an exit ramp where I was initially only going about 20 mph or so. Had I encountered similar conditions (snow on top of ice) at highway speeds, it would have been a lot worse.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:28 PM
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Popping some flares before starting filming might have helped some...
Let me just go stick this flare back here...ahhhhhhhhhhhcrunchgabblesmuchglurb
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:51 AM
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It's called FOG. It limits visibility. There are generally any number of accidents like this every year, sometimes involving over 100 vehicles, because people aren't expecting traffic to come to a complete stop on a highway.
An integral part of defensive driving is "expect the unexpected." Those people are absolutely at fault.


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Another winter-time meet-up of the summer and "all-season" tire clubs.

Winter tires really ought to be mandatory in any jurisdiction that sees winter weather. https://www.wheels.ca/news/its-offic...ut-collisions/
I learned how to drive in a rear wheel drive, underpowered Suburban. For many years, I drove rear wheel drive, light in the rear end vehicles exclusively. I have never used winter tires. To my knowledge, I do not know anybody who ever uses winter tires.

Knowledge + skill + summer tires will do FAR, FAR better than winter tires will.

Of the population that lives in places that routinely gets snow in winter, 80% will find winter tires to be--at best--unnecessary, if not downright a waste of time and money. When it snows where I live, most of the time the streets are clear within 48 hours. Even in the snowiest months, we spend more time with dry streets than we do snow-covered streets.

You are lazy and stupid enough to depend on technology for a half-assed solution. I hope that you never drive anywhere within 100 miles of me.
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:11 PM
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I learned how to drive in a rear wheel drive, underpowered Suburban. For many years, I drove rear wheel drive, light in the rear end vehicles exclusively. I have never used winter tires. To my knowledge, I do not know anybody who ever uses winter tires.

Knowledge + skill + summer tires will do FAR, FAR better than winter tires will.

Of the population that lives in places that routinely gets snow in winter, 80% will find winter tires to be--at best--unnecessary, if not downright a waste of time and money. When it snows where I live, most of the time the streets are clear within 48 hours. Even in the snowiest months, we spend more time with dry streets than we do snow-covered streets.

You are lazy and stupid enough to depend on technology for a half-assed solution. I hope that you never drive anywhere within 100 miles of me.
Hmm... thatís some very bad thinking there. You should consider:
Knowledge + skill + winter tires will do far better than knowledge +skill + summer tires.

And of course not everyone has driving skill, and the people who lack it often donít realize it.
Same thing for knowledge and thinking skills.

If you want some decent info on the superiority of winter tires, you could check out the tests at tirerack.com.
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:31 PM
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Knowledge + skill + summer tires will do FAR, FAR better than winter tires will.
No, they won't. Really, they won't. The experts and the people who test such things completely disagree with you. However good a driver you are, in winter conditions you are safer with winter tyres on than summer tyres. To argue otherwise is just nonsensical.

Winter tyres increase the margin of safety by a huge amount.

here's some evidence

and some more


aaaaaaaaaand, some more.

As you say, you've never used them so I'm not sure how you can make such a sweeping statement. I have driven with both and winter tyres give you far more traction and stopping ability in winter conditions. Not surprising seeing as that is what they are designed to do.

I've lost count of the number of times, when skiing, that I've had to help out 4x4 and other cars on all-seasons. They get stuck very easily and my humble fwd with decent winter tyres doesn't even notice it.
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Old 02-17-2019, 04:32 PM
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You are lazy and stupid enough to depend on technology for a half-assed solution. I hope that you never drive anywhere within 100 miles of me.

Christ. Hostile much? Hey, I hope you never have to interact with anyone ever because I’m pretty sure you’d immediately go apoplectic and have a heart attack right on the spot.
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:38 PM
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An integral part of defensive driving is "expect the unexpected." Those people are absolutely at fault.




I learned how to drive in a rear wheel drive, underpowered Suburban. For many years, I drove rear wheel drive, light in the rear end vehicles exclusively. I have never used winter tires. To my knowledge, I do not know anybody who ever uses winter tires.

Knowledge + skill + summer tires will do FAR, FAR better than winter tires will.

Of the population that lives in places that routinely gets snow in winter, 80% will find winter tires to be--at best--unnecessary, if not downright a waste of time and money. When it snows where I live, most of the time the streets are clear within 48 hours. Even in the snowiest months, we spend more time with dry streets than we do snow-covered streets.

You are lazy and stupid enough to depend on technology for a half-assed solution. I hope that you never drive anywhere within 100 miles of me.
What is lazy and/or stupid about using the correct tire for the conditions you drive in? All the driving skill in the world will not change the fact that the same vehicle will take two or three times the distance to stop on summer tires than it will on winter tires if there's snow on the road.

I grew up and learned to drive in Maine, so I'm no stranger to winter. I've driven quite a few 100 mile (round trip) commutes in weather that would shut everything down in lower-latitude states. My commutes these days are only 15 miles round trip, thankfully, but I still change my tires over twice per year, every November and April. I do this because the studded winter tires I use (made by Nokian) are not a "half-assed" solution as you ignorantly claim, but because there is a measurable and incredible improvement in winter handling when compared to all-season tires, and especially when compared to summer tires.
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:39 AM
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Novelty Bobble, great videos: they convinced me to look into getting some snow tires.
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:53 AM
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I was always an 'all-seasons' guy (living in MO), but when the boys started driving the Explorer, I decided to put snow tires on it. My god, the difference in handling and stopping was eye-opening - I had just assumed the all-season tires were doing a decent job (and they may have), but the winter tires were much, much better.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:10 AM
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Novelty Bobble, great videos: they convinced me to look into getting some snow tires.
If you regularly encounter wintery weather I think they are a good investment.

Interestingly, I have been to the snow dome where they filmed one of those tests and I know how steep it is. This winter we had an apartment up the side of a steep hill in Austria, comparable in steepness to the snow dome. It snowed heavily and the general rule over there is not to completely plough and salt the side roads but to grit and compress instead. Looking at the hill the first day I was mentally prepared to break out the chains as it looked pretty daunting. But no, the car sailed up it with only a single chirp of the traction control. (when I purposefully broke traction to find out where the limit was)
There were two occasions when I did use the chains but that was purely belt and braces after a large dump wasn't cleared at all and I reckon I still could have got up on bare tyres alone but I did have some quick-fit self-tensioning chains that I wanted to try out anyway. They were excellent by the way, 20 seconds per tyre to fit and remove and they provided traction way above even what the winter tyres provided.
The BMW 4x4 of the other family in our apartment building needed to fit chains every day for ascent and descent as they only had all-season tyres and 4wd didn't help him.

FWIW, I bought a set of steel wheels with snow tyres mounted for about £600. They lasted me for the 5 years and 60,000 miles I covered and it meant I never had to change my summer tyres either. The steels fit my new car also and a new set of snow tyres fitted onto them was £372, I got £120 back by selling my old winter tyres and I expect to get another 5 years out of the new ones as well.

All things considered I reckon it costs me about £40-50 per year to run winter tyres. Seems a good deal to me for the benefit they provide.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:25 AM
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I'm located about 20 miles from where this happened. I had the misfortune of having to drive in these conditions to travel ten miles on my work commute home. My 19 minute commute home grew to an hour and 40 minutes.

This storm had intermittent light snow, whiteout, heavy snow, patchy dense fog and even some weird dippin dots kind of snowfall that gave all the local meteorologists a chubby when they saw it.

It was a very slow moving but heavy system. West bound traffic on 70 went from clear highway to flurries to light pack to heavy pack in the matter of a few miles.

Yes they were driving too fast for the conditions you see in the video. Those conditions occurred in a very short distance.

But do you really believe that all of those people were stupid? Including the long haul truck drivers in the video?
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:45 AM
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People drive way too fast for the visibility conditions in fog all the time. It is very scary. My wife was driving home from a trip in heavy fog on a highway and she said she could only see about 25 feet in front of her car. At this level of visibility you really can’t go more than 30 mph. She found some taillights of a person going about 35 and she just stayed behind the other car. Yet people were flying past her at 60+ the entire way home. Any obstruction in the road, or a stopped vehicle, would have caused a pile-up.
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Old 02-18-2019, 12:05 PM
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I think the OP is misjudging what happens when you hit an area with no traction when driving at highway speeds, and the drivers in question were surely surprised at their inability to stop as well.
That's kind of the point. They shouldn't have been driving at "highway speeds" in packed snow.
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Old 02-18-2019, 12:18 PM
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some weird dippin dots kind of snowfall that gave all the local meteorologists a chubby when they saw it.
Graupel
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Old 02-18-2019, 12:50 PM
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Knowledge + skill + summer tires will do FAR, FAR better than winter tires will.
This person doesn't know what they are talking about.

You don't use winter tires because of snow. You use winter tires because they are designed to stay flexible and maintain traction at cold temperatures, unlike summer or all-season tires which turn into bricks.

You can, of course, pick your winter tires based on what you typically drive on, since there are some that are better on ice, others on cold pavement, others better at dealing with snow.
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Old 02-19-2019, 04:23 AM
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I have to say I'd be interested in Flyer coming back to respond to the overwhelming evidence in favour of winter tyres. I'm wondering what it would actually take to change their mind.

Like many I was sceptical of their worth, that's fine, but actual empirical evidence made the case convincingly and actual real-world use sealed the deal.

Last edited by Novelty Bobble; 02-19-2019 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:16 AM
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I have to say I'd be interested in Flyer coming back to respond to the overwhelming evidence in favour of winter tyres. I'm wondering what it would actually take to change their mind.

Like many I was sceptical of their worth, that's fine, but actual empirical evidence made the case convincingly and actual real-world use sealed the deal.
I'm a real world case. I live at 11,200 feet in the Rockies. I drive over the continental divide twice a day. My Wife and I MUST have 4wheel drives. And for our road and driveway use 4 wheel drive EVERY DAY for six months out of the year. Not only do true winter tires allow us to work and home, they are much better in the conditions we drive on. LOT'S of snow and ice all of it 2 lane winding highway. We find that Bridgestone Blizzaks are best for our particular situation.

Of course you can't discount experience and defensive driving, but when you deal with ice and snow 6 months out of the year I'll take any advantage I can get.
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:21 AM
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I have to say I'd be interested in Flyer coming back to respond to the overwhelming evidence in favour of winter tyres. I'm wondering what it would actually take to change their mind.
Looking at his posts, I think we can safely conclude that he's not going to change his mind. This is one of those "I'm a better driver after a few drinks" kind of things that no amount of empirical rebuttal will change. I'll stop short of suggesting that he would handwave any evidence away as part of Big Tire's conspiracy to force people in cold places to buy tires they don't need.

P.S. If you live in Florida, you can use summer tires always and forever!

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Old 02-19-2019, 01:43 PM
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Novelty Bobble, great videos: they convinced me to look into getting some snow tires.
I actually found this site (http://www.skstuds.ca/winter-tire-tests/) as I was doing my research into winter tires, as it was time for me to buy a new set back in November of 2018.

The thing to look at is the individual results for each tire, where they break down the test results by performance category (ice handling, snow handling, dry pavement handling, etc). That way you can make a decision based on what you deal with the most.

Last edited by CoastalMaineiac; 02-19-2019 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:00 PM
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Thanks. And yeah, here in northern Minnesota, we do see our share of winter weather!
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:07 PM
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I might be the only idiot to have grippy winter tires in the front, and "low rolling resistance" tires in the back.

But that's because I spend all winter purposely fishtailing. And hitting the emergency brake as I crank the wheel, so I can drift into a parking space on the opposite side of the street.

When I shop for tires I click on "Heavy Snow Area" and "Immature".
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Old 02-20-2019, 04:27 AM
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[...]
But that's because I spend all winter purposely fishtailing. And hitting the emergency brake as I crank the wheel, so I can drift into a parking space on the opposite side of the street.[...]
That's the spirit! Cool, innit? If the cops can, everybody can.
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:24 AM
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I think the OP is misjudging what happens when you hit an area with no traction when driving at highway speeds, and the drivers in question were surely surprised at their inability to stop as well.
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That's kind of the point. They shouldn't have been driving at "highway speeds" in packed snow.
Granted, but for that many drivers to run into trouble (as opposed to a single idiot driver), one would reasonably assume that the road conditions changed abruptly at the point where the pile-up occurred.

My point in the rest of my anecdote above was that it sometimes doesn't matter how fast you are going when you hit conditions like that. Your speed only affects how bad the impact will be, not whether you can stop or not.

Snow tires may have helped. Antilock brakes did not, in my case.
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by CoastalMaineiac View Post
I actually found this site (http://www.skstuds.ca/winter-tire-tests/) as I was doing my research into winter tires, as it was time for me to buy a new set back in November of 2018.

The thing to look at is the individual results for each tire, where they break down the test results by performance category (ice handling, snow handling, dry pavement handling, etc). That way you can make a decision based on what you deal with the most.
Meh. What would a bunch of guys from Saskatchewan know about driving in winter conditions?
  #43  
Old 02-20-2019, 09:33 AM
Really Not All That Bright is online now
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Originally Posted by robby View Post
Granted, but for that many drivers to run into trouble (as opposed to a single idiot driver), one would reasonably assume that the road conditions changed abruptly at the point where the pile-up occurred.
That's a logical explanation, but it's belied by the fact that there is packed snow visible all along the roadway in the video. I think a better explanation is that people generally don't modify their driving style to suit snow conditions.
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
That's a logical explanation, but it's belied by the fact that there is packed snow visible all along the roadway in the video. I think a better explanation is that people generally don't modify their driving style to suit snow conditions.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner. I see it all the time with fog or heavy rain as well. People barrel along, and often get away with it, which just encourages them.
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  #45  
Old 02-20-2019, 11:25 AM
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Meh. What would a bunch of guys from Saskatchewan know about driving in winter conditions?
Well, they're getting their information from the Norwegians, so I'd think they're at least somewhat credible.
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
That's a logical explanation, but it's belied by the fact that there is packed snow visible all along the roadway in the video. I think a better explanation is that people generally don't modify their driving style to suit snow conditions.
Or they didn't modify it enough. If they had slowed down from 70 to 45/35 (and it doesn't look like they were necessarily going even that fast, but my ability to judge speed is not the best), they probably would have been OK right up until there was an actual blocked highway in front them that they couldn't steer around by changing lanes. And in that case, based on how cars were sliding into that mess, any speed over 5 or 10 probably would have resulted in a crash.
  #47  
Old 02-20-2019, 03:53 PM
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I’m not the guy to actually do it, but it must be possible to figure speed by timing how long it takes them to pass identifiable makes of car with known lengths. Looks fast to me.
  #48  
Old 02-20-2019, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CoastalMaineiac View Post
Well, they're getting their information from the Norwegians, so I'd think they're at least somewhat credible.
Don't believe it. We Saskatchewanians are in-credible.
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Old 02-21-2019, 02:11 PM
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Iím not the guy to actually do it, but it must be possible to figure speed by timing how long it takes them to pass identifiable makes of car with known lengths. Looks fast to me.
A trailer length is about 50 feet. I timed the cars going between the trailers, and it took them about a second. So, I estimate those last three cars were going about 35 mph. It's a little hard to time because the camera was moving back and forth.

You can also do the same for the tractor trailers that went into the ditch by estimating how far away they are when they are first seen. I think the calculations came out the same, about 30 to 35.
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Old 02-21-2019, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Monocracy View Post
A trailer length is about 50 feet. I timed the cars going between the trailers, and it took them about a second. So, I estimate those last three cars were going about 35 mph. It's a little hard to time because the camera was moving back and forth.

You can also do the same for the tractor trailers that went into the ditch by estimating how far away they are when they are first seen. I think the calculations came out the same, about 30 to 35.
And that's the speed they had slowed down to by the time they're next to the truck. So assuming an initial speed of over 50 beforehand is probably not an unreasonable guess.

FYI, my car (05 Pontiac Vibe), on a snow-covered road like that, has a braking distance of probably about three or four car-lengths going along at about 35 or 40. That's full-on ABS panic stop. Granted, it's not a precise measurement, but a lot of times when the weather is like that, I'll do a test panic stop just to see how quickly I can stop if I need to (of course, I make sure nobody is behind me beforehand), I'll usually gauge it by slamming on the brakes right as I pass a sign, pole, or something similarly useful. That distance is with winter tires on all four wheels of the car.

So if a car length is 15 feet, four of them would be 60 feet, roughly the length of a tractor-trailer. In other words, many of those drivers would have stopped soon enough to avoid crashing if they had had winter shoes on their cars. TireRack's tests seem to confirm those numbers.
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