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Old 02-16-2019, 09:47 PM
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How bad a scandal for you to *not* vote for Trump's 2020 Democratic opponent?


I'd put this thread in Elections except that that forum is now too cluttered with all the "March Madness" threads:


Fast forward to October 2020: Trump is running for reelection as the Republican nominee and the Democrats have nominated someone like Kamala, Biden, Beto or Warren to oppose him.

Now, suppose that some major scandal came to light about the Democratic candidate. How bad would it have to be for you to not vote for him/her? (This question obviously is irrelevant to Trump-supporting Dopers.)

Presumably it would have to be something a lot worse than blackface or a racist comment. What would it take for you to either vote Trump, vote 3rd party, or abstain from voting entirely?
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:50 PM
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Absolutely nothing could stop me from voting against the current president.
Once he/she gets in the Dems would have the balls to impeach him/her and the Repubs would be happy to help.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:23 PM
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The Dems could run the rotting corpse of Hitler and I wouldn't hesitate a second to vote for him. It. Whatever.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:24 PM
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Unless there's some utter miracle I doubt I'll be casting a presidential vote either way.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:38 PM
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If I was paid enough to not ever have to work again, I'd sell my vote. But I would still campaign against, and complain about, him.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:59 PM
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Notwithstanding the comment in the OP, I'm moving this from GD to Elections.

[/moderating]
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Old 02-16-2019, 11:05 PM
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My first vote was in the 1972 General Election. Excepting 1980, when I voted for Libertarian Party candidate Ed Clark, I've voted Republican consistently in the Presidential race. Further, I've never missed another election of any kind for which I was a qualified voter.

The day after the General Election in 2016 I remarked to several close acquaintances to the effect that "we now have a small chance", to which all of them agreed. I don't see that chance as holding any water at this time.

But for me to cast a ballot for a Democrat/progressive/socialist/whatever is utterly repugnant in my imagination, so I expect to sit out next years primary, any runoff, and the General, insofar as the Presidency is involved; Representative, Senator, locals, well, that will be a different story.

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Old 02-17-2019, 03:12 AM
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High treason, constant pathological dishonesty, and at least one case of locking children in cages. That's the bare minimum it would take for the candidate to be as bad as Trump.

Seriously, I feel like we constantly fail to give this the shrift it deserves. The Trump administration followed a deliberate policy of separating young children from their families, locking them in cages, refusing to do any work to bring those families back together, and handing those children off to Christian adoption agencies. This is a humanitarian tragedy. A fucking disgraceful policy on par with such classics as Japanese internment camps - indeed, Trump flunkies keep on trying to rehabilitate the Japanese internment camps, I wonder why.

It's hard to imagine any individual scandal that's more disqualifying than that. The democratic nominee could be convicted of murder, and I would vote for them, because the harm of a single murder is nothing on an intentional policy of separating children from their families, locking them in cages, and giving them away to adoption agencies. CharmaChameleon, how do you feel about locking children in cages?

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 02-17-2019 at 03:16 AM.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:08 AM
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Fast forward to October 2020: Trump is running for reelection as the Republican nominee and the Democrats have nominated someone like Kamala, Biden, Beto or Warren to oppose him.
<snip>
What would it take for you to either vote Trump, vote 3rd party, or abstain from voting entirely?
If Trump wins in 2020, I'd expect four more years of bluster, incoherent policies, and mediocrity. So it'd have to be something worse from the other side. None of the listed Democratic candidates are particularly odious, so I think it would take either a display of incompetence, or proposed policies that the majority of voters would believe would cause severe economic or social damage. On the incompetence side, if a candidate appears genuinely senile, that would cause him/her to be voted against. Policy side, left-wing proposals that might sound good, but that would quickly prove unpopular might be a wealth tax or a corporate revenue tax. Or the Democratic candidate could go full-blown left and back universal health care, universal basic income, AND full open borders.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:00 AM
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I don't think any amount of scandal in the candidate's personal life would do it, but I do have a nightmare scenario in which I would probably abstain from voting: a noticeably crazy and / or incompetent candidate captures the Democratic nomination after having their signal boosted and their opponents torn down by a flurry of anonymous Internet trolls, so that I have to conclude that THEY are now the preferred candidate of Putin or some other malevolent power.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:28 AM
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It would have to be really bad.

Like, a history of deceit and sexual misconduct, combined with a long record of fraud, disgraceful public statements, incompetence, and being generally surrounded by people under indictment or actually having been convicted of felonies.

And if the candidate didnít release their tax returns, that would be sad.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:37 AM
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2020 may be a case where Dems end up being grateful for the Electoral College, if the purity wing doesn't manage to fuck things up. There is no such thing as "bad enough" for them, anything is bad enough, especially the ones obsessed with sex and gender shit.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:43 AM
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I don't actually think it would be my view of the scandal itself that would be the deciding factor, but rather how that scandal affected the Democratic oppoenent's viability as a candidate against Trump. If the scandal was so bad that it would be mathematically impossible for the Democratic opponent to win, so that it is a lost cause, then I might as well vote third party and retain my dignity.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 02-17-2019 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:56 AM
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It would have to be something worse than what Trump's done -- worse than spending years spreading a racist conspiracy theory, bragging about violating the consent of women (along with over a dozen allegations), praising white supremacists, greatly harming American national security by pulling out of international agreements like the Iran nuclear deal and the nuclear deal with Russia, rhetorically aiding and abetting American white supremacism almost continuously, in addition to whatever is ultimately concluded by the Mueller investigation (and Democratic congressional investigations).
  #15  
Old 02-17-2019, 09:57 AM
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If the Democrat was even more Treasonous, criminal, corrupt, mentally imbalanced and anti democracy than Trump. Then I wouldn't vote for them.

But I can't forsee that happening. There are no national democrats like that and even. If there were, they wouldn't survive a primary.
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:05 AM
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Maybe if they shot someone on Fifth Avenue...................
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:08 AM
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I would pretty much have to see the Democrat nominee feeding puppies and kittens into a wood chipper on the news every night for weeks on end all the while running on the platform of "I'm gonna tax you bastards back to the stone age!" and eating pizza with pineapple on it.

The XXXhole casserole we have in Washington right now is bad enough but there are limits.
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:31 AM
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Nothing that fits into the category of 'scandal' could get me to vote against the Dem nominee.

What could get me to vote against the Dem nominee: they'd have to demonstrate somehow that, as President, they'd likely be even more of a disaster for America than Trump is.

What could get me to simply not vote: if the Dem nominee committed an extremely serious crime. But in that case, the party would surely declare its nomination null and void, and nominate someone new. So I doubt that's really a possibility that a voter would have to reckon with.
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:41 AM
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The Dems could run the rotting corpse of Hitler and I wouldn't hesitate a second to vote for him. It. Whatever.
Under no circumstance would I vote for the rotting corpse of Hitler. I hope the agreement to disagree on this matter does not create the sort of rift between us that precludes a minimum degree of comity in our interactions going forward.
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:09 AM
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There are certainly Democratic candidates (or potential candidates) I'd vote for over Trump (or over another Republican candidate in the unlikely event one emerges).*

That doesn't mean I'd automatically vote for, say, the rotting corpse of Hillary Clinton or some other objectionable Dem, given that my one vote is rather unlikely to swing the election.

I voted for a third party candidate last time and could well do that again.

*Kasich has about as much chance of being nominated by the GOP as Jussie Smollett.
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:12 AM
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Under no circumstance would I vote for the rotting corpse of Hitler.
Whoís his running mate?
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:31 AM
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Zombie Goering. Ugh.
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:48 AM
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The Dems could run the rotting corpse of Hitler and I wouldn't hesitate a second to vote for him. It. Whatever.
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Under no circumstance would I vote for the rotting corpse of Hitler. I hope the agreement to disagree on this matter does not create the sort of rift between us that precludes a minimum degree of comity in our interactions going forward.
Can Democrats Overcome Deepening Divisions in Run-Up to 2020 Elections?
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:02 PM
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Or the Democratic candidate could go full-blown left and back universal health care, ...
MY GOD! That is absolutely horrendous! I can't imagine the suffering that would occur if the great and good United States of America started down that horrible road of universal health care.

Imagine, providing health services for all citizens paid for by a common pool of resources! This would be the end of civilization as we know it. Surely, no other country has tried such a radical experiment and survived!

I don't know how you could even imagine such a hellhole.
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:03 PM
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Can Democrats Overcome Deepening Divisions in Run-Up to 2020 Elections?
Another trumped-up scandal trying to tear the Democrats apart. Hitler's rotting corpse wasn't born in the United States and so is ineligible to run.
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:04 PM
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2020 may be a case where Dems end up being grateful for the Electoral College, if the purity wing doesn't manage to fuck things up. There is no such thing as "bad enough" for them, anything is bad enough, especially the ones obsessed with sex and gender shit.
I'm having a hard time seeing any scenario in which the Electoral College helps Democrats, no matter how good or bad the D candidate may be. The only way the EC helps you is if you lose the popular vote but hit 270 EVs anyway. How do the Ds do that? They'd have to somehow win swing states like Ohio, North Carolina and Florida while losing the national popular vote.

No matter what, the EC always helps the Rs. A Wyoming voter has 3x the power of a Californian. Rural red states always carry more proportional weight.

Last edited by Velocity; 02-17-2019 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:28 PM
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Nothing that fits into the category of 'scandal' could get me to vote against the Dem nominee.
Vote against or withhold your vote? I have a hard time ever imagining myself voting for Donald Trump. The Dems would have to nominate someone along the lines of David Duke for that to happen. But there are certainly potential scandals weighty enough for me to just not vote at all. Certain criminal offenses for example - I'm not going to vote for someone who snaps under stress and punches out their spouse on the eve of the election.

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  #28  
Old 02-17-2019, 12:53 PM
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Seriously, I feel like we constantly fail to give this the shrift it deserves. The Trump administration followed a deliberate policy of separating young children from their families, locking them in cages, refusing to do any work to bring those families back together, and handing those children off to Christian adoption agencies. This is a humanitarian tragedy. A fucking disgraceful policy on par with such classics as Japanese internment camps - indeed, Trump flunkies keep on trying to rehabilitate the Japanese internment camps, I wonder why.
This. It should be the front page news of every paper, every day. We should be doing nothing else until it's resolved and laws are in place to make sure it never happens again. The fact that after YEARS we still have concentration camps in the United States -- for children, based on their race and skin color -- should have cost Trump all of his supporters ages ago. It's the absolute icing on the proof that conservatives really are as racist as the Dems have been claiming for years, no matter how strident their denials or attempts to redirect this into "name-calling. (The wall, only along the "brown people" border, helps, too.)"

Nothing imaginable would get me not to vote for anyone other than his opponent unless that opponent could somehow managed to exceed this very, very high bar. The rotting corpse of Hitler would at least not be taking active malicious action. I would literally vote for the office to be left empty rather than allow Trump to continue in it.
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:58 PM
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If the Democrat pulls off his latex mask on national TV and reveals himself to actually be Trump in disguise. Or if Trump and the democrats both pull off masks and reveal themselves to be interchangeable space aliens. In that case, I'd go ahead and vote third party and throw my vote away.
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:41 PM
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Were Trump Kang and the Democrat Kodos, I'd vote for Kodos. Not because they're a Democrat but because they're not Trump.
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Old 02-17-2019, 02:31 PM
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If the Dem nominate Harris, I will vote 3rd party. Only because I know CA is a safe Dem state.

I think voting third party in a swing state is extremely stupid. Despite Hillary's faults, she would be a 1000 times better than Trump. I despise the third party voters who bought into the Kremlins propaganda that Hillary was just as bad as Trump. I'd wish them to go to Hell, but they are currently in a hell of their own making- the current USA, and the fascist dictatorship it is possibly on the way to becoming.
  #32  
Old 02-17-2019, 03:14 PM
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Put me down with those who say the Democrats couldn't possibly nominate anyone worse than Trump. And I wouldn't go 3rd party under any circumstance either since any vote not for the Democratic nominee is a vote that helps Trump.
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:23 PM
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Put me down with those who say the Democrats couldn't possibly nominate anyone worse than Trump. And I wouldn't go 3rd party under any circumstance either since any vote not for the Democratic nominee is a vote that helps Trump.
This cannot be overstated. Fuck your stupid sense of self worth - if you vote for a third party candidate you are worse than a Trump supporter because you know better and yet you enabled this fucking prick.
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:35 PM
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This cannot be overstated. Fuck your stupid sense of self worth - if you vote for a third party candidate you are worse than a Trump supporter because you know better and yet you enabled this fucking prick.
"Fuck your stupid sense of self-worth"

That's a hell of a voting slogan Cotton. let's see if THAT appeals to the 3rd party voters and the sit-at-homes any better than "Russian stooge" and "BernieBro"

I said it two years ago and I'll say it again. Dracarys.
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:38 PM
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I'm having a hard time seeing any scenario in which the Electoral College helps Democrats, no matter how good or bad the D candidate may be. The only way the EC helps you is if you lose the popular vote but hit 270 EVs anyway. How do the Ds do that? They'd have to somehow win swing states like Ohio, North Carolina and Florida while losing the national popular vote.

No matter what, the EC always helps the Rs. A Wyoming voter has 3x the power of a Californian. Rural red states always carry more proportional weight.
Florida just added some 3 million voters who are overwhemingly going to vote D.
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Old 02-17-2019, 04:14 PM
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Read the thread title and just started laughing - not even really sure exactly what at. Did not read the thread, sorry.
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Old 02-17-2019, 04:24 PM
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Um... rape/torture/murder, proven and documented? The revelation of his/her explicit secret plans to commit genocide if elected?

Apart from that, nothing. And even then I'd go third party or write-in rather than actively choosing Trump.

(I'm in New York anyway, and our vote is safe, thank God. I love my glorious blue state!)

Last edited by choie; 02-17-2019 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 02-17-2019, 04:31 PM
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This cannot be overstated. Fuck your stupid sense of self worth - if you vote for a third party candidate you are worse than a Trump supporter because you know better and yet you enabled this fucking prick.

Well, in a swing state, at least, yes. In CA or NY, you can vote for martians, it wouldnt matter.

But yes, third party voters voted trump in. They are every much to blame as MAGA hat wearing , redneck racists.
  #39  
Old 02-17-2019, 04:40 PM
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I voted for a third party candidate last time and could well do that again.
How'd that work out for you?

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"Fuck your stupid sense of self-worth"

That's a hell of a voting slogan Cotton. let's see if THAT appeals to the 3rd party voters and the sit-at-homes any better than "Russian stooge" and "BernieBro"

I said it two years ago and I'll say it again. Dracarys.
And do you believe voting for a 3rd party candidate in 2020 will bring about whatever changes in government you hope to happen?
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Old 02-17-2019, 04:52 PM
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I said it two years ago and I'll say it again. Dracarys.
Translation please
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Old 02-17-2019, 05:05 PM
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Translation please
Google is your friend. I kinda figured it was from Game of Thrones (even though I've never watched a minute of it), and so it is:
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Daenerys Targaryen teaches her newly hatched dragons to breathe fire on command when she says dracarys,​​​ burning Pyat Pree alive.[7] She also uses the command to make Drogon roast Kraznys mo Nakloz alive,[8] and to order her dragons to burn the ships of the Slavers' Alliance in the Second Siege of Meereen.[9] Later on, during her invasion of Westeros after the Battle of the Goldroad she uses the command to have both Randyll, and Dickon Tarly executed by Drogon.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 02-17-2019 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 02-17-2019, 05:07 PM
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Still don't understand how it supposedly applies here - but no sweat, I'll move on...
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Old 02-17-2019, 05:51 PM
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How bad a scandal for you to *not* vote for Trump's 2020 Democratic opponent?

Public cannibalism.






....no, wait. Even if the candidate turns out to be one of my two least-favorites (Bernie or Gillibrand), and even if that candidate takes a big, enthusiastic bite out of a baby held up for the traditional kiss ....

... I'd still vote for him or her over Trump.

Earlier it was mentioned that the rotting corpse of Hitler would be ineligible for the Presidency, given that Hitler wasn't born in the USA. Well, Charles Manson was born in the USA.

So: yes. I would vote for the rotting corpse of Charlie Manson over Trump.

(And let's be clear: Third-party voting is a vote for Trump. Not voting is a vote for Trump.)
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:03 PM
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Read the thread title and just started laughing - not even really sure exactly what at. Did not read the thread, sorry.
Thatíll earn you a warning for being a jerk, BennJammin. Donít do it again.
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:03 PM
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Put me down with those who say the Democrats couldn't possibly nominate anyone worse than Trump.
I don't think they could nominate someone as bad as Trump.

There's a small chance that the Democratic nominee, after then convention, will experience a personality change -- maybe due to a head injury, or a rare neurological disorder. If looked to me that he or she had become at least as authoritarian as DJT, or even close to it, then I'd vote third party.

Last edited by PhillyGuy; 02-17-2019 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:06 PM
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"The only winning move is not to play." -- "Joshua" (WOPR), "War Games"
Here's hoping all 3rd party candidates read and truly believe this for our next election!

As far as not voting for Trump, hell, I'd vote for Casey Anthony before any Orange people. (You heard it here. I'm racist against orange people. The Ooompa Loompas are lucky they have jobs in a closed factory!)

If the GOP wants to keep the WH, they need to nominate a Romney again. That's the only way they'd have a shot. (And I'd still vote Dem no matter what.)
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:56 PM
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It is impossible for the Democrats to nominate anyone worse than DJT. There is no way I could ever vote for any Republican for any office at any time in the future unless the Republican Party is disbanded and more conservative Democrats resurrect the brand at some point in the future.
  #48  
Old 02-18-2019, 12:35 AM
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I don't think they could nominate someone as bad as Trump.

There's a small chance that the Democratic nominee, after then convention, will experience a personality change -- maybe due to a head injury, or a rare neurological disorder. If looked to me that he or she had become at least as authoritarian as DJT, or even close to it, then I'd vote third party.
In that case, I'd expect the democrats in congress to step up to the plate and do something about it.
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Old 02-18-2019, 12:41 AM
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In that case, I'd expect the democrats in congress to step up to the plate and do something about it.
If it happens after a presumptive nominee but before the Convention, it could be fixed, pretty easy.

After the convention and before the election- it would be harder, but possible.

After the election? Nope.
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Old 02-18-2019, 01:41 AM
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Original Statement: "Or the Democratic candidate could go full-blown left and back universal health care, universal basic income, AND full open borders."

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
MY GOD! That is absolutely horrendous! I can't imagine the suffering that would occur if the great and good United States of America started down that horrible road of universal health care.

Imagine, providing health services for all citizens paid for by a common pool of resources! This would be the end of civilization as we know it. Surely, no other country has tried such a radical experiment and survived!

I don't know how you could even imagine such a hellhole.
You quoted a partial sentence and ignored a capitalised "AND" in order to change the context of my statement. But let's use that as an analogy. To lose the 2020 election, the Democratic candidate will have to make herself/himself less popular than Trump. A way that could happen is if the Democratic candidate listens to only a portion of the American public. If the candidate and party decides that Trump can't win and 2020 is the time to energise the left and go bold with lots of big, liberal policies, then they could end up turning off lots of voters. The Democrats need a candidate that appeals to all of America and not just the far left. Being stupid enough to just pay attention to the left and ignore the rest of the country would cause the Democratic candidate to lose. And losing to Trump twice would indeed be scandalous.
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