Ask the Muslim Guy

[Muslim Guy]

Got any questions about Islam or Muslims, I'll field them the best I know how.

[ultrafilter]

I'll start. Where's a good online translation of the Qu'ran? And did I spell that right?

And welcome to the boards.

[London_Calling]

With all due respect, can you outline your credentials with a degree of (message board-ish) credibility ?

Specifically, what is your background in the wider society and in Islam ?

[Muslim Guy]

ultrafilter, I converted to Islam so many years ago (1984), there was no World Wide Web then! So I've all along relied on print translations. I think the best are the ones by:
A. Yusuf Ali (the original edition, not the bowdlerized one)
Muhammad Asad (Leopold Weiss)
Ahmed Ali.

I will have to look around and see which ones are available online and get back to you.

London Calling, I converted to Islam 17 years ago, practiced it consistently since then, read through the entire Qur’an in Arabic several times, studied at the Institute of Islamic and Arabic Sciences in Vienna, Virginia and at George Washington University at the post-graduate level; taught Qur’an at the Islamic School of the Oasis in Cleveland; was on the faculty of the International Islamic University, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia; worked with Professor John Esposito on editing the Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern Islamic World and wrote one of the articles for it; prepared an index to the Qur’an translation of A. Yusuf Ali; I've made the Hajj to Mecca and traveled in Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. Besides reading a lot from the original Islamic texts and contemporary Islamic thought over the years. Is that good enough for you?

I may be the first Doper ever required to post his résumé upon registering. I wonder if Esprix (Ask the Gay Guy) or "Ask the Black Guy" had to give their qualitications for being gay or Black.

[vanilla]

I have a few.
I don't know anything about Islam.
Can you tell me somewhat breifly what the beliefs are?
Can a caucasian person join?

[ultrafilter]

Ok, thanks for looking into that. I'd consider buying a copy, but I'm a poor college student, so I'd prefer to find one online.

[Muslim Guy]

vanilla, the essential creed (iman) recited by Muslims goes as follows in literal translation:

I believe in Allah,
and in His angels,
and in His messengers,
and in His scriptures,
and in the Last Day,
and that its determination of good and evil is only by Allah,
and in the resurrection after death.

As for Caucasian Muslims: there are so many Muslim peoples of the Caucasus who have been there for centuries: the Chechen, Ingush, Abkhaz, Dagestanis, and several more.

When I first read The Autobiography of Malcolm X, which powerfully inspired me to convert to Islam, he included a lot of fulminations and denunciations of the white race (left over from his Nation of Islam days, before his Hajj when he realized that Islam liberates all races of humanity from racism). So at first I wasn't sure whether I as a European-American would be accepted, and I hesitated to visit mosques. Of course there was no reason to feel excluded, because the Muslim community welcomes all peoples with open arms, with warm brotherhood and sisterhood. Islam is the most un-racist religion I could find anywhere (and I had tried all of the world's religions), which was one of my main motivations for coverting. Ever since growing up during the Civil Rights movement, I had been searching for the remedy to American racism, and led by Malcolm X I found it in Islam.

ultrafilter, I did a Yahoo! search with the word "quran" and found some pages that may be satisfactory,
like:
http://www.stg.brown.edu/webs/quran_...r/pqeasy.shtml
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
http://islamicity.com/mosque/quran/

Haven't had a chance to check these out so I don't necessarily vouch for them 100%.

I personally would prefer to avoid the fundie interpretations, which is why I cited A. Yusuf Ali, Muhammad Asad, and Ahmed Ali as some good non-fundie translators.

[ShibbOleth]

Hi, Muslim Guy, welcome to the boards!

Originally posted by ultrafilter
I'll start. Where's a good online translation of the Qu'ran? And did I spell that right?

And welcome to the boards.

Here is a link to an on-line version of the Qur'an which either Saxman or Tamerlane posted in another thread. AFAIK both of these fellows are also Muslim Guys of good standing already on this board. They have both done a good job, IMHO, of fighting ignorance here over the past few days. Good, clean knowledge.

Perhaps you can review this and see if it is a good one, I would not know for certain.

[Sir Rhosis]

If you were able to be face to face with the 19 hijackers prior to their despicable actions, how would you explain/try to convince them that such cowardly murderous actions were not supported by Allah or the Quran?

Sir Rhosis

[ShibbOleth]

In General Questions:

Usage of Islamic/Moslem/Muslim?

Does the Koran say that it is OK to kill non-Muslims?

Questions about the Islamic faith

In MPSIMS:

Think of your Arab American friends

Tolerance

[ShibbOleth]

Originally posted by Muslim Guy
I may be the first Doper ever required to post his résumé upon registering. I wonder if Esprix (Ask the Gay Guy) or "Ask the Black Guy" had to give their qualitications for being gay or Black.

Impressive credentials. I would guess that many people were well aware of Esprix's gayness before he started the Ask the Gay Guy series. However, you do seem to know a lot about this board for a fellow on his fifth post, have you been lurking or is this a new incarnation?

[elbows]

Welcome Muslim Guy!

I have traveled quite a bit in several Islamic -non Arab countries, (Malaysia, Indonesia, Kashmir), and I have many friends there. As I have watched the unfolding events of this week, my heart breaks for the Muslims of the world to have such a horrific deed connected with their religion.

It is such a stikingly beautiful faith, it's adherents so tremendously loving and family oriented. But here in the west noone seems aware that these are truly isolated madmen among the millions who know their God would never/could never endorse this evil.

I keep trying to make the people around me understand but without success. I come home and weep. Whenever there's an item about graffiti, racial slurs etc, I begin to weep again. I feel like the people around me don't understand the half of how tragic this is.

Guess I just wanted to be heard by someone who knows and understands what I'm trying to say...

[Muslim Guy]

Here is a link to an online Qur'an site provided by Ino in another thread:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/

Here is the translation by Professor T.B. Irving, a Canadian gentleman who converted to Islam many years ago after studying old Spanish literature. He is a kindly, grandfatherly old man, very pleasant to talk to. I have met him on a couple occasions. He aimed at avoiding KJV style and putting the Qur'an into modern American English:
http://isgkc.org/translat.htm

[London_Calling]

Originally posted by Muslim Guy
I may be the first Doper ever required to post his résumé upon registering.

Well, your registration at a sensitive time is opportune and your knowledge of Board mores comprehensive. And no, you aren't required to do anything. It was a request. There are a lot of strange people out there, Muslim Guy.

Thank you for helping put your answers in a more significant context and for your assistance in fight ignorance.

My question:

Is it accurate to say the Qur’an expressly forbids the killing of innocents ?

[AHunter3]

Hi, and thanks for starting this thread!

I'm a devotee of feminist theory and politics. Is there anything within Islam per se that directly supports patriarchy or traditional sex roles? Or that directly opposes sexual equality, the liberation of women from restrictions on conduct that don't apply to men, etc?

AND...to what extent would your answer bring forth widespread nods among Muslims in general? Is the apparent anti-feminist current in the Arabic Muslim countries predominantly a cultural thing (as far as you know) as opposed to being a by-product of Islam?

(aside: I tend to think Christianity is a patriarchal religion with built-in anti-feminist currents)

[Lsura]

As someone who has followed a wide range of Christian doctrines, from liberal Catholicism to Pentecostal Fundie and back to a conservative Catholic stance, I've gained a lot of knowledge about the Christian beliefs in the end of the world(which, by the way, I do not believe we are in, just to clarify).

The basic creed you posted included "and in the Last Day,". What are the Islamic beliefs in the the end of the world?

[Bluesman]

I have a question:

Does Allah hire hitmen to rub out authors that insult Him?

[Theobroma]

I have a question, too.

Could you please explain the difference between Shi'ite and Sunni?

[ultrafilter]

Originally posted by Muslim Guy
Here is a link to an online Qur'an site provided by Ino in another thread:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/

Here is the translation by Professor T.B. Irving, a Canadian gentleman who converted to Islam many years ago after studying old Spanish literature. He is a kindly, grandfatherly old man, very pleasant to talk to. I have met him on a couple occasions. He aimed at avoiding KJV style and putting the Qur'an into modern American English:
http://isgkc.org/translat.htm

Thanks, I'll check the second one out.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Welcome, Muslim Guy and thanks for volunteering to answer questions.

Supposedly, bin Laden is upset that Americans were allowed in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War. Shouldn't he be more upset with the Saudi government? If allowing non-believers in is such a problem, couldn't they have found another way?

Also, please explain women's roles in your faith. It seems that they have limited freedoms.

[Lamia]

Originally posted by vanilla
I have a few.
I don't know anything about Islam.
Can you tell me somewhat breifly what the beliefs are?
Can a caucasian person join?

I am not a Muslim, but I can say that almost every Muslim I have ever met has been white. One of my Muslim classmates is a blue-eyed blonde -- at least her eyebrows are blonde, I've never seen the rest of her hair. The Palestinian students at my school are often mistaken for being French.

I am not sure why Americans often seem to think of Arabs (I suspect that "Arab" and "Muslim" are virtually synonymous to most Americans, although not all Arabs are Muslim and there are Muslims of every ethnic group) as not being white. The average Arab is certainly no darker of complexion than the average Southern European.

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by Sir Rhosis
If you were able to be face to face with the 19 hijackers prior to their despicable actions, how would you explain/try to convince them that such cowardly murderous actions were not supported by Allah or the Quran?

Two main points: 1) The Qur'an only authorizes defensive military action against attacking soldiers; 2) The Islamic law of war comes from the Prophet's instructions to fight only soldiers on the battlefield, to never harm noncombatants or the environment. These terrorist guys have been breaking so many Islamic laws all over the place, it ain't funny.

The Prophet was not only a man of wisdom, he had a lot of common sense, too. He wasn't after conquering territory, he sought to win hearts and minds. It's common sense to know you don't persuade people by hurting them; you win them through affection and kindness. He didn't want to fight, he fought only to survive because the little Muslim community at the beginning was in danger of being totally wiped out. He never initiated aggression, but tried to present Islam peacefully and was attacked for it.

For the first 14 or 15 years, he never fought at all, even though there were persecutions, murders, and assassination attempts against the Muslims. When they did take up arms, it was only defensive. When Muhammad finally returned to Mecca and took over, he used diplomacy and the city opened peacefully to him with no fighting or bloodshed. He gave general amnesty to all his former enemies and took no revenge. When Muslims retook Jerusalem after the First Crusade, likewise they allowed Christians and Jews to live there in peace as they always had and took no revenge.

These terrorist guys nowadays are doing crimes that Islam has always forbidden. The fact is, their actions are not connected with Islam at all. They are just exploiting the good name of Islam to serve their own purposes. They are bringing harm to the Muslim community and no benefit. Believe me, Muslims for years have had to deal with trouble from this type every day and wish we could be rid of them!

[Sunspace]

Dear Muslim Guy,

Thanks for opening this thread. It was a very courageous deed, given the baying madness of revenge that seems poised to take over so many hearts.

I don't really have a specific question as such though... but as a (mostly secular) Neo-Pagan I'll be reading the other questions and answers with great interest.

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by London_Calling
[BAnd no, you aren't required to do anything. It was a request.

My question:

Is it accurate to say the Qur’an expressly forbids the killing of innocents ? [/b]

I knew you meant it in a friendly way, and I was just responding with a good-natured wisecrack. Yeah, this is my de-lurk.

Answer to your question: YES.

Anyone who kills any person without another soul being involved or causing mischief in the land, acts as if he had killed all mankind. Anyone who spares life acts as if he had granted life to all mankind. (5:30)

Allah only commands justice and the doing of good (16:90)

Do not take life—which Allah has made sacred—except for just cause.(17:33)

[delphica]

My question is: Who is in charge?

Let me say that as a Roman Catholic, in my religion there is a very clear cut idea of who is in charge. If someone professing to be acting in the name of Catholicism started to get a little wacky, I could look to the Pope for an answer. If the Pope said "hey, that guy's a nut job*," I would know to dismiss any religious clout the nut was attempting to throw around.

So, in Islam in general, is there a head honcho? About current events specifically, is there a religious figure to whom bin Laden claims to answer? Would bin Laden's supporters be swayed if this person suddenly denounced him?

* Not that I have ever heard the Pope call anyone a nut job, but then again, I don't speak Polish.

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by AHunter3
I'm a devotee of feminist theory and politics. Is there anything within Islam per se that directly supports patriarchy or traditional sex roles?

Excellent question. A friend of mine, a lady from Pakistan named Asma Barlas, is a professor at Ithaca College and has a book coming out soon from U of Texas Press that shows how the Qur'an not only does not authorize patriarchy, it in fact degrades patriarchy. Fatima Mernissi from Morocco is the best-known Islamic feminist, who has seriously done her homework in the original sources and brought out the anti-patriarchal thrust of the original Islamic message. See especially her books The Veil and the Male Elite and Beyond the Veil.

Or that directly opposes sexual equality, the liberation of women from restrictions on conduct that don't apply to men, etc?

See the Qur'an verse 33:35, which uses parallelism to establish complete spiritual equality between men and women.

Muslim men and Muslim women, believing men and believing women, devout men and devout women, truthful men and truthful women, patient men and patient women, reverent men and reverent women, charitable men and charitable women,
fasting men and fasting women, and men who safeguard their private parts and women who safeguard [theirs], and men who
remember God often and women who remember [Him]-for [all of] them God has prepared forgiveness and a splendid wage.

AND...to what extent would your answer bring forth widespread nods among Muslims in general? Is the apparent anti-feminist current in the Arabic Muslim countries predominantly a cultural thing (as far as you know) as opposed to being a by-product of Islam?

You got that exactly right. The oppression of women in Muslim societies is the recrudescence of cultural attitudes that Islam couldn't completely remove. What can I say? Even if the religion is good, the people who are supposed to implement it are just imperfect human beings who never quite do justice to the ideals they're supposed to live up to. But knowing that the original message of Islam brought women's liberation gives us Islamic feminists a firm basis for advocating feminism. Already a lot of the misogynist crap that mullas had inserted over the centuries has been successfully criticized in the light of original Islam and eliminated. Such as the alleged saying of the Prophet that women shouldn't be educated: this has now been proved to be a fake hadith. Considering that a genuine hadith says "The seeking of knowledge is obligatory on every man and woman," the phony anti-woman stuff is now being filtered out. This is one reason I love America: American Muslim women are free to live according to the full extent of the rights they had in original Islam. This is one reason why I think that America is the best country for Islam, why I love America and am proud and grateful to be an American.

As much as I dislike the modern fundamentalist goings-on, I've noticed an interesting phenomenon among them: a lot of the women fundamentalists, in researching back to the original sources of Islam, have found an amazing amount of women's empowerment there and brought that to the forefront. They are not taking a back seat to the male fundamentalists anymore, but are setting their own agenda. I noticed this in the recent book by the fundie professor Rasha al-Disuqi, Resurgent Voice of Muslim Women. For more Islamic feminism, please check out Maryams.net.

As for Christianity having misogynist tendencies, I guess when you represent God, the supreme Reality, as exclusively male, with a penis and everything, it's bound to make the whole picture somewhat unbalanced. There is certainly no such thing as a male God in Islam. Muslims cannot speak of Allah as Father, though the Prophet and others like Rumi have spoken of Allah as Mother. (To be fair to Christians, a few such as Julian of Norwich have addressed Jesus as Mother too.) Islamic theology derives all maleness and femaleness from the two poles of the divine nature: Majesty and Beauty, respectively. In Sufi love poetry, Allah as the beloved is invoked as a Woman. That's where Eric Clapton's song "Layla" gets its name from: he had been reading the Persian Sufi love epic Layla and Majnun. In this poem Majnun as a male represents the human soul in quest of God's love, and the woman Layla represents Allah as the besought. Layla means she has hair as black as night. The blackness of night refers to the dissolving of all forms; the ultimate divine reality, the dhat or divine essence, is considered Feminine (as in Taoism: while Yin and Yang both proceed from the Tao, it tends to be ultimately Feminine).

[Dr_Paprika]

Apart from level of fundamentalism (if that), what is the difference between Sunni, Shi'ite, Druze?

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by Lsura
The basic creed you posted included "and in the Last Day,". What are the Islamic beliefs in the the end of the world?

Pretty similar to Christianity. The archangel Israfil (recognize his name from the poem by Edgar Allan Poe?) will sound the trumpet, and all beings will fall into a swoon. He will sound the trumpet again, and all the dead will be resurrected from the grave, and proceed to Judgment, where the righteous will be sorted out from the wicked: eternal bliss for the former and perdition for the latter. Among the believers, each prophet will lead his community (ummah) into Paradise: Moses with the Jews, Jesus with the Christians, Muhammad with the Muslims, and so on. At Judgment, your good deeds will be placed on a scale and weighed against your bad deeds. If you wronged your neighbor or owe a debt, he can take some of your good deeds for his scale. Everybody has their deeds, good and bad, written in a book, and you'll get to see it at Judgment. But Allah is Merciful above all, and loves to forgive, and if He wants to pardon and erase all your bad deeds, He will, just as long as your heart has hope for His mercy. Inscribed on the Divine Throne is the phrase: "My mercy takes precedence over My wrath."

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by Bluesman
Does Allah hire hitmen to rub out authors that insult Him?

Is this a troll post?

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by Theobroma
Could you please explain the difference between Shi'ite and Sunni?

The split originated with a disagreement over who should succeed the Prophet as the leader of the Muslim polity. The Shi‘ah began as the group who thought ‘Ali, the Prophet's cousin and son-in-law, should be the first khalifah (successor). The majority opinion (which later came to be called "Sunni") prevailed and three other khalifahs were elected before ‘Ali got to become the fourth khalifah. It's really only a political or legal disagreement, not a religious one, because no one could succeed to the prophethood, as that came to an end with the death of Muhammad. The dispute was over the political leadership. Only the first four khalifahs are considered really correct. After them, the dynasties that set in lack the level of authority. The relations between the two sides became worse after the Umayyad dynasty began, and the second Umayyad caliph Yazid, a wicked ruler, put to death ‘Ali's son, the prophet's much beloved grandson al-Husayn. The Shi‘ah see their first twelve leaders beginning with ‘Ali as the twelve Imams who had a special role in interpreting the religion. Their faith emphasizes love for the Prophet's immediate family centered on the Prophet's daughter Fatimah (wife of ‘Ali and mother of al-Hasan and al-Husayn). Fatimah was a sensitive, intensely spiritual woman who cared for the poor and was not withdrawn from worldly things.

Sunni simply means those who follow the Prophet's example (sunnah), which is kind of a misleading name, as the Shi‘ah also follow the Prophet's sunnah too. They have coded Islamic law based on the Qur'an and the sunnah the same as other Muslims, and for the most part their school of jurisprudence resembles the four Sunni schools of jurisprudence, but there are differences. The ongoing rivalry and conflict between Sunni and Shi‘ah, if you ask me, have more to do with human beings' irrational hatreds and us-versus-them attitudes. Witness Catholics and Protestants for that matter. But there has been a movement toward Shi‘ite-Sunni rapprochement among the leaders of both sides. In 1960 they convened at al-Azhar university in Cairo and pledged to accept one another.

[Muslim Guy]

Sorry, I typed wrong. I meant to say that Fatimah was withdrawn from worldly things.

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by Mr. Blue Sky
Supposedly, bin Laden is upset that Americans were allowed in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War. Shouldn't he be more upset with the Saudi government? If allowing non-believers in is such a problem, couldn't they have found another way?

You know, I never really got what that was all about. The ostensible reason was that non-Muslims are not supposed to enter the sacred precincts of Mecca and Medina. Now the troublemakers interpret that to mean the whole kingdom of Saudi Arabia. I say: get real. The sacred precincts are in the region of Hijaz, in the northwest of Arabia. The American troops are in eastern Saudi. The Saudi kingdom originated in the region of Najd, in the east. The present king's father expanded the kingdom and in 1924 conquered the Hijaz from its traditional ruler the Sharif (great-grandfather of the king of Jordan). Strictly speaking, it was the Saudis who had no business taking over Mecca. But that was long ago anyway. My point is that eastern Saudi has never been considered "sacred land" and there are no American troops in Hijaz, so what's the big deal about? I think the big deal is that these guys want to overthrow the kingdom, and are looking for some justification. You'd think they could come up with something better than that. Whether it's a good thing for Americans to be stationed in the Middle East like that is a serious question, one that should be asked. I marched in protest against Desert Storm back in '91. But that does not mean you can make a religious issue out of it. These guys are only pretending to act for "Islam." When you critically examine their claims, they fail.

Also, please explain women's roles in your faith. It seems that they have limited freedoms.

I answered that in a post above. You're right, it seems that way because over the centuries mullas took away women's God-given rights. That is now being re-examined and questioned by Islamic feminists, so that little by little women are regaining their original equality. The women of the earliest generations of Islam fully exercised their equality, and their rights weren't eroded until ‘Abbasid times—which was then given the false appearance of being the norm. I'm sorry to say that misogynists are using the excuse of Islamic fundamentalism to block the reinstatement of women's rights in a reactionary way, although there are now women fundies who will not let them get away with that so easily!

[Atreyu]

Thanks, Muslim Guy, for de-lurking and being willing to answer questions. I'm impressed that you are willing to do this at such a difficult time for our nation. Fighting ignorance is the purpose of the Straight Dope, and there certainly is a lot of ignorance about Islam in the United States today.

I can only think of three questions right now.

What is the general attitude of Islam towards Judaism and Christianity?

What is the general attitude of Islam towards other religions in general, such as Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.?

Is the Holy Bible considered sacred scripture in Islam?

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by delphica
My question is: Who is in charge?

Ultimate authority rests in the sacred texts: the Qur'an and the Prophet's sunnah. Who interprets those sources to derive legislation? A lot of individual scholars, none of whom is boss over the others. It's very much like the Jewish rabbis collectively working on the Talmud. The ones who demonstrate that they have the best understanding are ultimately the ones who are accorded the highest regard. The real finality comes with the important concept of general consensus (ijma‘). So to what authority can we appeal to show that Bin Laden & co. are out of bounds? To the fact that the overwhelming consensus of scholars agree that their actions are invalid (nut job). This consensus carries the weight of a papal pronouncement in Catholicism. The difference is that it's distributed instead of contained within a personage. (Among the Shi‘ah, theoretically the Imam is the one with the final authority. But since the Twelfth Imam went into "occultation" some 1200 years ago and is unavailable for comment, in practice the Shi‘ites work from a consensus of scholars the same as the Sunnis.) Among the Sunnis, the scholarly establishment of al-Azhar in Cairo holds a high level of prestige.

So, in Islam in general, is there a head honcho?

No. Religious law cannot be settled by decree, but only by persuasion of the consensus.

About current events specifically, is there a religious figure to whom bin Laden claims to answer? Would bin Laden's supporters be swayed if this person suddenly denounced him?[/b]

He answers to no one. He is in rebellion against the whole Islamic community. Rulings in Islamic law depend on their appeal to human reason. When somebody goes off on such an irrational kick, and won't listen to reason, what can anyone do? The scholars at al-Azhar have again and again ruled that terrorism is completely unlawful. The problem is how do you enforce this ruling. Stalin sarcastically asked how many divisions of troops the Pope commands. President Andy Jackson said arrogantly: "The Chief Justice has made his ruling. Now let him enforce it." See, the leading scholars of Islamic law would have put a stop to Bin Laden already if they'd been able to. But he's holed up in a renegade country whose nutjob rulers allow him to stay. The rest of the Islamic world rejects the Taliban, but realistically, what can they do about it?

[oliversarmy]

First, I in no means mean to be trollish. I have been reading all the threads concerning Islam and I appreciate my greater understanding from them.

So here's my however. However, today, I was listening to NPR and the host was interviewing a Middle-East expert, who I believe is a Muslim. I really was not paying much attention, until the end of the interview, when the host asked him about the perception of bin Laden in the Muslim world. His response was that bin Laden is the single most "popular" person in Islam.

I was taken aback. Is this true?

Did anyone else hear this? If I heard this incorrectly, I want to know.

And thanks for this thread.

[elmwood]

I hope all's going well for you, Muslim Guy, given the recent events this week. I'm at least glad to see the news media pay special attention to incidents of harassment of Muslims and those of Middle Eastern origin by some of my more ignorant countrymen. Hopefully, exposure of these incidents will encourage non-Muslims to learn more about what elbows called a "stikingly beautiful faith", and realize that they really share far more than they percieved.

Speaking of which, my question -- do you think Middle Eastern immigrants and Muslims are more or less assimilated into American culture than other ethnic groups and/or those who practice Judiasm? Many of us have seen very conservative Muslims in the supermarket or mall, with a covered woman walking with the children a few steps behind her husband. Unfortunately, I think it's sights like this that cause some folks to think "they ain't like us," and thus assume the worst. Jews have assimilated over many years, yet still maintain a distinct sense of identity. As time goes on, I've seen fewer Asian Indians in traditional garb in neighborhoods where they have been established for many years, and no female Asian Indian children or young adults wearing saris.

Another question -- if a mosque near me is experiencing security issues, what can I do to help?

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by Atreyu
What is the general attitude of Islam towards Judaism and Christianity?

Prophet Muhammad did not bring Islam as a new religion, but as a restoration of the same religion as the Hebrew prophets. Therefore he tried to work out a commonality that Jews, Christians, and Muslims could all share while respecting each other's differences.

SAY: "People of the Book, [let us] rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you, that we shall worship only God [Alone] a associate nothing else with Him, nor shall any of us take on others as lords instead of God." If they should turn away, then say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." (Qur'an 3:64)

What is the general attitude of Islam towards other religions in general, such as Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.?

There's a distinction drawn between the People of the Book (Jews, Christians, & Sabi’ans) and kafirs (the Meccans who tried to exterminate Islam). As for Buddhists, Hindus, and other religions in other far-flung parts of the globe, they aren't mentioned in the Qur'an at all. The original Muslim community did not encounter them. The People of the Book are recognized as kindred religions. The kafirs come in for condemnation because of their implacable enmity toward Islam. As for the rest who aren't mentioned, it's up to interpretation. Some have applied the concept of kafir to these other religions, although I do not find any justification for that when you examine what the word means in the Qur'an. There is an article titled "Islam and Plurality of Religions" by an Indian Muslim, Anwar Moazzam, published in the symposium book The Divine Peacock: Understanding Contemporary India (New Delhi: Indian Council for Cultural Relations, 1995), p. 113-121. A very good analysis of the question. He rejects identifying other religions as kafir and concludes: "Religious plurality is to be treated as a reality of human civilisation. No compulsion or use of force is permissible, except to meet any external threat to one's survival, for the promotion of Islam or interest of Muslims and against other religions or followers of other religions."

When Islam came to Iran, Zoroastrians (even though they're not mentioned in the Qur'an) were classified as People of the Book for purposes of taxation and such. Each religious community was allowed to be internally governed by its own laws. During the Mughal Empire in India, a son of Shah Jahan, Prince Muhammad Dara Shikuh, studied Hinduism and concluded that Hindus are People of the Book too. He identified the Upanishads as a sacred scripture indirectly alluded to in the Qur'an. Many Muslims would disagree with this, but my point is there's room for interpretation and I am advocating the more liberal possibilities. The 13th-century sage Muhyi al-Din ibn al-‘Arabi taught the universality of all religions. In fact, I think he was the first person in history ever to articulate this theory. In the present day, Professor Seyyed Hossein Nasr at George Washington University, one of the foremost scholars in the Islamic world, argues that Islam accepts the validity of other religions, because Islamic law requires the Islamic state to protect its non-Muslim citizens. So if you believe these non-Muslims are destined for Hell, why would you be obligated to protect their lives, property, and interests? According to Dr. Nasr, this shows the basis for universality toward other religions in Islam, they are capable of salvation too. Ibn al-‘Arabi taught this 800 years ago; it took Christians until the 20th century to come around to this concept. Because Islam came as the last major religion, it has a perspective to look back on all the previous ones and see them all as revelations from the same divine Source. The Qur'an teaches that all nations in the world had prophets and messengers sent to them, all bringing essentially the same message, which is why they share so much in common. There was one Muslim shaykh who traveled to America and became friends with American Indians; he participated in the Sun Dance at Pine Ridge reservation and was adopted into the Lakota and Crow tribes. He recognized their religion of Wakan Tanka as very similar in essence to Islam. He had a Hindu friend from South India who likes to visit Muslim gatherings I attend; when we pray he holds his hands in namaste over his head to show the highest level of reverence. Then when he chants the Upanishads in Sanskrit we listen respectfully. There is a lot of basis for mutual respect and friendship between Islam and other religions. These are just a few examples.

Is the Holy Bible considered sacred scripture in Islam?

Yes and no. The four sacred revealed scriptures specifically mentioned in the Qur'an are the Torah, the Psalms, the Gospel, and the Qur'an. The Qur'an accepts them in principle, but does not necessarily endorse every detail in them, since the versions now known may have been altered from the originals. Islam does not regard Jesus Christ as God or the son of God, but as a major prophet. Just as Moses had the Torah revealed to him, David had the Psalms, and Jesus had the Injil (Evangelion), Muhammad had the Qur'an revealed to him.

Again, I'm taking the liberal side, though not all Muslims will. There is room in Islam for a variety of interpretations. The final word on these issues is the Qur'an: verse 5:51 gives the basis for acceptance of religious pluralism—

Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you He made you as ye are. So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

[elmwood]

"I think it's sights like this that cause some folks to think" - change that to "I think sights like this cause some folks to think" . Sorry.

[zev_steinhardt]

Hi Muslim Guy. Welcome to the SDMB.

I have a number of questions, but I'll space them out.

I'll start with this one (to totally change the topic).

I know (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that Islam permits a man to marry up to four wives. Is this true across all sects of Islam, or am I accessing some sect-specific information.

If so, what percentage of Muslim men do have more than one wife (I realize that you may just be guessing, but any info you have would be helpful).

In Judaism, there is a Talmudic dictum called dina d'malchusa dina. Translated, this means that the law of the land (where it does not conflict with Jewish law) must be followed. Is there a similar restriction in Islam. Specifically, with regard to polygamy, is there any Islamic restriction (aside from any civil restriction) against a Muslim taking more than one wife in a country where the civil law forbids it (such as in the United States).

Thank you for your time.

Zev Steinhardt

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by oliversarmy
His response was that bin Laden is the single most "popular" person in Islam.

I didn't get a chance to listen to NPR today (it's all I can do to keep up with responding to this thread).

It's sad, the perverseness of human nature. Nice people get ignored. Mean people get all the attention. Once I saw on someone's SUV a decal with a scowling figure and the words "BAD BOYS CLUB." I wondered what that was all about. Upon reflection, I came up with the "Bad Boys Club" theory of politics. The present situation looks so unbearable, people just wish someone would come along and shake things up. To join the Bad Boys Club, you don't need any coherent ideology, you don't need to make any sense at all, you just need an attitude. They make the mistake of expecting anyone who is "bad" enough to stand up to The Man and "give the finger" is their hero. You know the saying "Be careful what you wish for"?

I don't know how popular he actually is, certainly the majority of Muslims do not support terrorism, but I'm concerned that a lot of people haven't thoroughly considered the consequences, haven't really examined where this attitude is heading. They just react irrationally, emotionally. I don't know. Once the unimaginable horror and evil of September 11 sinks in, people are now forced to reassess what they had been expecting. The best to hope for is people will come to their senses and see how Bin Ladin is accomplishing nothing but harming Muslims with his crimes. (Somehow I keep thinking of Alan Rickman in Die Hard sneering, "I'll have you know I am an uncommon criminal!")

OK, there have been outlaws who were popular heros in the past, but Jesse James, or Phoolan Devi the Bandit Queen, never practiced indiscriminate slaughter. If Bin Ladin really was behind September 11, he's finished. Nobody will support him any more. I don't know. I have never met a single Muslim who ever liked Bin Ladin, and I think his popularity is exaggerated.

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by elmwood
do you think Middle Eastern immigrants and Muslims are more or less assimilated into American culture than other ethnic groups and/or those who practice Judiasm?

Let's hope Americans will "assimilate" into accepting the diversity of world cultures instead of expecting the whole world to be homogenized into a bland boring K-Mart look. I think there's hope for this yet. Maybe there's something to be said for Muslims retaining some pride in their distinctiveness and helping to keep diversity alive. I hope to God Indian women do not all forsake the beautiful, graceful sari for K-Mart clothes.

But as for women "walking a few steps behind husbands," have you actually seen this, or is this such an engrained stereotype that you only think you've seen it? There is of course no such rule in Islam. The unfortunately real degradation of women's equality comes from cultures, not from the religion. It's taking a long time to remedy slowly. But, as I've said elsewhere, America is the best place for Muslim women to fully exercise their God-given rights, so in that sense America is great for Islam.

Another question -- if a mosque near me is experiencing security issues, what can I do to help?

That's a nice thought. Maybe get your Christian and Jewish neighbors together, and pay a visit. Stand outside and show solidarity of religious tolerance to everyone passing by. Offer to help to keep an eye out for trouble, like the "Neighborhood Watch" signs you see all over residential streets.

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by zev_steinhardt
I know (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that Islam permits a man to marry up to four wives. Is this true across all sects of Islam, or am I accessing some sect-specific information

It isn't a question of sects, but across the board this practice (never very prevalent) is now dying out. It originated as an emergency measure when the male population has been decimated and widows and orphans need caring for.

If so, what percentage of Muslim men do have more than one wife (I realize that you may just be guessing, but any info you have would be helpful).

As far as I can estimate, less than 1%.

[b]In Judaism, there is a Talmudic dictum called dina d'malchusa dina. Translated, this means that the law of the land (where it does not conflict with Jewish law) must be followed. Is there a similar restriction in Islam. Specifically, with regard to polygamy, is there any Islamic restriction (aside from any civil restriction) against a Muslim taking more than one wife in a country where the civil law forbids it (such as in the United States).[b]

Yes. In Islam you have to abide by the law of the country you're in as long as it doesn't prevent you from fulfilling religious obligations like daily prayer. Just as you explained it.

I'm so tired, I have to get some sleep, I can't write any more tonight. Please excuse me for now, everybody. What a response this thread got!

[astro]

Your answers to inquiries have been most informative and are appreciated.

What is the extraordinary appeal of this fundamentalist style of Islam that seems to drive politics in the middle east and gives the western world the image of Islam as an extremely dogmatic and inflexible system of belief that is at odds with the (as described by you) more liberal and inclusive nature of Islam. What's going on in this context, are there real problems or is it just bad PR or both?

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by Dr_Paprika
Apart from level of fundamentalism (if that), what is the difference between Sunni, Shi'ite, Druze?

Didn't want to leave anyone out if I can help it.
I answered about Shi‘ite and Sunni in another one of these posts. The Druze is a separate religion from Islam. It's supposed to have started as a result of the Mad Caliph al-Hakim in 10th century Egypt, of the Fatimid dynasty, part of the Isma‘ili sect of Shi‘ism. He really was nuts. The only time Christians and Jews were persecuted in classical Islam was under al-Hakim's reign, which goes to show that he wasn't doing it right. The story goes that a guy named Darzi started saying al-Hakim was God. Why, I have no idea. He went to the mountains south of Lebanon and converted people to his new religion. Actually what it seems to be is a survival of some obscure pre-Islamic cult. The mountainous environment allowed the people to avoid the influence of Christianity and Islam around them. They are secretive and don't allow outsiders much information about their religion. I never got what the Druze were all about.

[Muslim Guy]

Originally posted by astro
Your answers to inquiries have been most informative and are appreciated.

What is the extraordinary appeal of this fundamentalist style of Islam that seems to drive politics in the middle east and gives the western world the image of Islam as an extremely dogmatic and inflexible system of belief that is at odds with the (as described by you) more liberal and inclusive nature of Islam. What's going on in this context, are there real problems or is it just bad PR or both?

When the central government is felt to lack legitimacy, a small minority of hardliners can begin to intimidate the more moderate general population. Again, the perverseness of the world. Mean people get more play than nice people. Especially when it comes to PR, as you noted. Media focus on sensationalism means that troublemakers get all the attention. When was the last time you saw a news flash about people being nice to each other?

Don't want to oversimplify a complex situation.

Goodnight, all.

[Atreyu]

Thanks for your reply to my earlier questions. I could see that they took a considerable amount of time to type, and I appreciate your efforts.

I have another question for you. Was going to send it by e-mail, for I fear that it is not general enough for this thread, but your e-mail link is disabled. Which is fine.

I'll go ahead and post it here.

A few months ago, I began work on a novel. I wanted some quotes prior to the first chapter, and among the places I looked for a quote was Beliefnet.com, where they allow online searches of a variety of sacred texts, including the Qu'ran.

The quotes I was looking for specifically relate to deafness, and I found some useful quotes, eventually using a quote from the Bible.

However, I came across a quote from the Qu'ran that disturbs me:

[8:22] Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah's sight, are the deaf, the dumb, who do not understand.

As someone who was born severely to profoundly deaf, I'm a little troubled by this statement. Scratch that...I was very shaken by this line. Is this quote out of context? If not, what gives?

I promise that I'm not trolling here. I just want some insight into this.

[Weird_AL_Einstein]

Muslim Guy, thank you for this thread. It is highly informative. I will start off with two questions, likely I will think of more later. First, what broadly speaking is the Muslim view of life after death/afterlife? I have heard things like, in the Muslim Paradise the men get female servants called "houris" that...ahhh...attend to their every need, so to speak. I have also heard that aside from them there are no women there. Is there any basis for these beliefs in the Muslim religion? And second, were your Muslim beliefs a factor in motivating you to oppose the Gulf War?

[Tamerlane]

Muslim Guy: A fine thread and fine answers .

If you will allow me to expound further on a random few points of interest:

1.) Druze - The founder of this faith was in fact al-Hakim's vizier. He lost out in a political struggle with al-Hakim's chief general and was forced to flee Egypt for his life. Since al-Hakim ( who was indeed a notable loon ) had mysteriously disappeared in the desert after riding out by himself one day, his vizier declared that he had been occultated by God, in much the same manner as Is'mail, the seventh Imam accepted by the Is'maili ( or "Sevener" ) Shi'a faith that the Fatimd anti-Caliphs followed ( not to be confused with the "Twelver" or Imami Shi'ism practiced today in Iran, or the Zaydi or "Fiver" Shi'ism practiced in Yemen ), was said to have been. Whether he took these actions out of genuine religious fervor or crass political maneouvre ( or both ), is unclear. At any rate since the Druze believe the Koran has now been superseded by these events, they are in effect no longer Muslim at all, but rather a fully separate religion ( rather like Baha'i ).

2.) Multiple Wives - It is interesting that a few modern theologians have said that in effect the Koran forbids multiple wives. Why? Because the Koran entreats that you must treat them all exactly the same. Since this is obviously impossible for any human being to truly accomplish ( the exception that proves the rule of course being Muhammed ), de fact multiple wives are verboten . Perhaps not a widespread interpretation, but an interesting one.

3.) Shi'ism: A fine response, but I'll nitpick and say that is only the Sunni tradition that recognizes all four of the Rashidun ( the "Rightly Guided Caliphs" ). The Shi'a tradition recognizes only the fourth, Ali. And I believe the mainstream, classical Sunni tradition only recognized one of the Umayyads, Umar II, as anything other than a Malik ( secular king ), though by historical tradition they are all referred to as Caliphs. Of course history is made by the victors and the first Umayyad dynasty lost in the end.

Also in realtion to the above, I will make the point that although the Caliphs weren't considered successors to the Prophet in the strictest sense, they were considered as something along the lines as first among equals in the religious community, the religious and political being inextricably intertwined in Islamic society. Hence the distinction made between Malik and Caliph and the ceremonial significance attached to the office of the Caliph, long after the Caliphs themselves had become political irrelevancies..

Shibboleth: Thank for the kind words . But not to leave you with any misapprehensions, I should make a small correction. Though I have a strong interest in the history of Islamic civilization and of the Middle East/Mediterranean Basin generally, and though I repect the Islamic faith, I am not a Muslim. Atheist, actually .

Since Muslim Guy made mention of his name, I thought I'd recommend his book The Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality?. A very readable, concise, and even-handed treatment of Islam and its relation to the wider world in the latter half of the 20th century ( covers the Gulf War, Salman Rushdie, etc. ).

- Tamerlane

[astro]

Originally posted by Atreyu

As someone who was born severely to profoundly deaf, I'm a little troubled by this statement. Scratch that...I was very shaken by this line. Is this quote out of context? If not, what gives?

I promise that I'm not trolling here. I just want some insight into this.

Not to step on MG's thread but in classic context IIRC this quote is not really intended to insult hearing impaired people but to address those who are willfully deaf, dumb and uncomprehending. ie

http://www.toluislam.com/pub_online/...e/chapter5.htm

"The worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who do not use their intellect to understand (8:22).

This is a graphic description of the degradation of man when he does not press reason to his service. Such a man, the Qur'an tells us, not only lives a worthless and debased life in this world but also renders himself unfit to live in the higher plane on which he enters after death"

[zoid]

one word.....

WHY?