What does it feel like to have schizophrenia ?

[Muad'Dib]

I have heard described that it feels perfectly normal (whatever "feels" means). It is just that when you are having an episode it is incredibly obvious that (insert favorite hallucination here) is true, and you can't understand why no one else sees it.

[Kaje]

Isn't that what you'd expect though? if you were constantly on acid from day one, you wouldn't understand why nobody else sees the melting walls.

I suppose the case might be different if you didn't always have the condition, and then because of some strange stimulus or whatever you cracked so to speak... Presumably your brain would still remember "wait a minute... since when was my boss a polka-dotted osterich with crayons for legs?"

That said, I have no training in this area and my comments should be taken as random uninformed speculation.






_redrum

[Poloin99]

I am willing to bet it feels different to each person afflicted.

[Steve Wright]

A close friend of mine suffered from schizophrenia, and once described a mild episode to me in some detail. Basically, he was travelling on the London Underground one day, when he suddenly "realised" that some of his fellow passengers were demons who were out to get him. So, he started a desperate flight across London, dogged by his imaginary pursuers, looking for a place of safety... and everything that happened to him along the way got interpreted within the framework of this delusion. (And this was a mild episode - as in, no auditory or visual hallucinations.)

I might add that, although the sufferer feels perfectly normal, the onset of an episode is much more obvious to those around them... I had the dubious privilege of seeing one of my friend's episodes start up once. I'd known this guy for nearly twenty years, and in the course of half an hour he turned into a total stranger. Very scary.

[owlstretchingtime]

IMNA Schizophrenic, however through work (with the street homless and in the mental health system) I have dealt with literally hundreds.

I suspect there as many answers to this question as there are to any question of perception. Bear in mind that schizophrenia is a condition with a wide spectrum of affect. Many schizophrenics are fully aware that the hallucinations they are experiencing are just that (this is usually auditory). An example of a (UK) self help group that may give some insight is the Hearing Voices Network.

This group recognises that the voices are not real ie they are not from an external source, and are not contempaneously experienced by others. They also accept that they are "real" to the person hearing them. One coping method that they advocate is to make time in the day to listen to one's voices, ie to deal with them.

Other sensory hallucinations are usually a symptom of a greater level of affect. Oflactory usually being the worst.

[Gyrate]

Originally posted by Steve Wright
A close friend of mine suffered from schizophrenia, and once described a mild episode to me in some detail. Basically, he was travelling on the London Underground one day, when he suddenly "realised" that some of his fellow passengers were demons who were out to get him.

Whereas the rest of us travellers just assume that LU are the demons out to get us.

[aegypt]

Mark Vonnegut, son of US novellist Kurt Vonnegut, wrote a book on his expreiences with schizofrenia, called "The Eden Express":

http://www.duke.edu/~crh4/vonnegut/eden.html

I think there was some controversy among psychiatrists as to whether he really was suffering from schizofrenia, though. Many where of the opinion he was just bipolar and suffered from hallucinations.

Here's a list of other first person accounts on the subject:

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/Sommer.../goodBib.htm#5

Also, here's one person's story I found on the Internet:

http://www.chovil.com/story.html

[AHunter3]

I can't tell you what it feels like to genuinely, actually HAVE schizophrenia, because it doesn't really exist. It's just a convenient label + excuse for locking us up without a trial or charges and then poisoning our minds so we can't think or feel. They make examples of us to instill fear in the rest of you of becoming other than normal.


Or perhaps not, but it has seemed that way to me, incontrovertibly, without room for other grey areas. To believe that is to harbor a set of beliefs not shared by most others; it is, in fact, to harbor a set of beliefs that would be dismissed by many others as "crazy". What that means, in practice, is that, at some point, you choose to dismiss other folks' evaluations of your beliefs, having more faith in your own ability to differentiate between crazy nonsensical belief-content and content that is simply different from what the rest of the world believes.

That can make you feel a bit "paranoid", not so much that folks are out to get you, but that they are, en masse, harboring a shared set of values and beliefs that you have discounted as wrong. Maybe dangerously so. Heck, if they believe schizophrenia exists, they might believe they should lock you up, thinking you "have" it! In particular, when they find out you've been diagnosed as schizophrenic and that the doctor thinks you should be taking antipsychotic medication, they may believe they are doing you a big favor by doing whatever it takes--pressuring you, having you locked up, tricking you--to poison your brain (get you to "take your meds").


One thing you learn is the art of diplomacy. Here's the first paragraph, reworded just a bit:

I can't necessarily tell you what it feels like to genuinely, actually HAVE schizophrenia, because it doesn't necessarily exist, at least not as they've described it. Even if it does exist as the biomedical phenomenon they allude to, it is also true that in practice people who are disruptive may receive the diagnosis (as I did), there is no test for schizophrenia other than a psychiatrist's subjective evaluation of a person's behavior and affect, and
the psychiatric medications are still pretty much blunt assaults on CNS functions, i.e., they dampen out the mind's ability to think and feel. This lessens symptoms, and may help badly distressed people cope, but it is also true that those who receive it involuntarily experience it as an assault on their ability to think and feel, and their reactions to that, such as describing attempts to treat them as attempts to poison them, are viewed as delusions, proof of how badly they need their medications.

[ejrn]

What a miserable disease. The typical age of onset is in the late teens or early twenties so people who get it know the difference between being schizophrenic and being normal. However, the hallucinations feel quite real. As a matter of fact, this is one of the differences between hallucinations of schizophrenia and those on LSD. People with drug induced hallucinations usually realize that they are a drug effect and will pass.

Many schizophrenics are quite intelligent and will make great efforts to cover up their disease. They will not tell anyone that they are hearing voices, but mental health workers will note "the patient appears to be attending to inner stimuli". At times, though, they become overwhelmed and unable to do this.

They often suffer from despair and suicide is common. As is alcoholism. They know their disease will never relent and the drugs that control their symptoms are no picnic either. What a nightmare.

[ejrn]

AHunter3, There is a huge difference between having schizophrenia and being misdiagnosed with it. Occasionally, people with bipolar psychotic episodes are wrongly diagnosed. Also, borderline personality patients have been known to be labelled schizophrenic by stupid or sadistic practitioners.

However, the defence of denial is often utilized by schizophrenics. My husband used to moonlight as a psychiatrist at a prison in NYC and many "patients" there would complain of hearing voices in order to get sedatives and such. He could usually tell the real schizophrenics by the fact that they would be referred to him by staff for seeming oddly distressed and deny to him that they were hearing voices. Their affect (demeanor) usually gave them away. He would often feel great sympathy for these patients (imagine being schizophrenic in prison).

The disease is real, despite the occasional misdiagnosis, and to deny that is just crazy. There are actual, physical changes in the brain structure that can be seen on CT scans as the disease progresses.

Yes, the treatment is awful too, but it keeps people out of the hospital if they can tolerate it enough to comply.

Even with meds, they tend to live marginal lives. Without them, they often wind up living on the street. Get a grip and have a heart.

[handy]

Websters has a most nice fitting discription:
1 : a psychotic disorder characterized by loss of contact with the environment, by noticeable deterioration in the level of functioning in everyday life, and by disintegration of personality expressed as disorder of feeling, thought (as in hallucinations and delusions), and conduct ? called also dementia praecox

[Scott Dickerson]

What I think is being "said," but not in so many words, is that the schizophrenic does not engage in the sort of reality-testing most of us do by habit.

Let's say you park your car and go into a convenience store not ten steps away. A minute later you exit and your car is nowhere to be found. Most of us will go through a series of mental steps ("Did I exit into a different parking lot?" "Did I forget that I'm driving the other car today?") and achieve some satisfaction with regard to them, before considering drastic ("It's been stolen!") and more drastic ("It's been stolen and the store clerk is in on it!") and increasingly bizarre ("Aliens programmed me to believe I owned a nonexisten car!") alternatives. Craziness is when you jump all-too-readily to the latter steps, as if driven by a sort of inner emotional pressure: literally, a panic.

I once drove around and around in mid-evening because it seemed imperative that I find an ATM not located to my left. Why? Beats me.

[AHunter3]

ejrn:

The disease is real, despite the occasional misdiagnosis, and to deny that is just crazy.

WOOOOOSH!!!

[Zyada]

I learned in Abnormal Psychology that schizophrenia is the inability to distinguish between internal and external stimuli. However, I took this course 20 years ago, so they've probably come up with new things since then.

Given that though, consider this. All of our connection to the external world actually happens inside our brain. For instance, light of certain wavelengths reflect off an object and excite different light sensors in our eye in varying ways. This information is sent on to the brain, and it is up to the brain to take this stimuli, form it into a cohesive pattern and give it meaning, significance and place in our internal conception of the universe.

However, at the same time we have internal events that play quite similarly to internal events. For instance, I'm "hearing voices" right now... as I compose this post, I hear the words I want to write in my head. I try out different tacks, and then I type what I've composed, and hear the words again as I type them. I've also heard my mom say "Zyada!" whenever I've done something stupid. But I know that these "voices" are in my head, and not real sound coming from an external source.

The question is how do I know the difference? I can point to some obvious things, such as an external feedback loop for real events, e.g. I see a person talking while I hear the words; or that internal "voices" are almost always much quieter than external sound. But since these really require a conscious evaluation of what's going on, I believe that there is another mechanism going on. It is this intriguing question that will probably be answered by the study of schizophrenia.

Obviously, since I am not schizophrenic I can't tell you what it is truly like to be such, but you may be able to get some idea from what I've said here.

[Phlosphr]

Well having worked in an inpatient psychiatry unit at a local Hospital for two years after grad school I can tell you that most of you are on track. owlstretchingtime has hit it on the head quite nicely.

I suspect there as many answers to this question as there are to any question of perception

This is very true. There is a wide array of different levels and different degrees of the disorder. As a matter of fact if you want to know a startling fact, which I think I learned in Abnormal Psych 101 is that schizophrenia runs in thirds. This means a third of the population will never have an episode, a third of the population will have one episode and a third of the population will have more than one episode, or reoccuring bouts with the disorder.

Today there are many medications that can be had that have a very positive affect for the schizophrenic. As a matter of fact there are people who live their day to day lives dealing with the disorder and who live quite nicely. I dealth with a gentleman who came onto the ward on a monday night complaining of vocies and seeing movement out of his periphery. Come to find out the attending nurse knew this gentleman and told me that 'George' was a reoccuring patient of the ward and that I should get to know him. He comes in 4-5 times a year checks himself in and gets free meds. He is not a very well off man and he can not afford the medication that would benefit him. So he comes into the ward receives some IM meds and is on his jolly way. The the meds wear off or he runs out and is back on the ward in a few weeks.

There are others who completely go into a fugue state and forget who they are, who their reletives are, and just simply forget themselves. [these patients are usually the ones with severe schizophrenia and require massive doses of medication to keep them even in a semi-normal state]

Although I have seen perfectly normal people enter the ward and say to us that they are about to have an episode. This is especially perplexing because science has not really found out the reason why or how these people can feel an episode coming on. But they seemingly can.

All in all schizophrenia is a terrible disorder but thoroughly treatable with the right physician and the correct medication. The drooly mumbly types are still out there but in drastically fewer numbers.

[ShibbOleth]

Here's a simple, informative site on schizophrenia.

And a broader site: www.schizophrenia.com

And an alternative site: Alternative Mental Health.

Net, nobody really knows exactly what causes schizophrenia and different people react differently to different treatments. One take is that it's a group of disorders with similar symptoms, and each will have to be solved separately.

[Phlosphr]

UH OH!!! I must appologize for the rude remark at the end of my last post. I did not mean to say drooly mumbly types whilst refering to someone with schizophrenia. That was quite unprofessional and uncalled for, and the wife just threw a boot at me for doing so, so sorry just the same...

[Colibri]

My father was schizophrenic, as was my aunt, and as is my first cousin. A good friend of mine is also schizophrenic. From many hours of listening to them talk about their experiences, I have no doubt whatsoever that when they are actually in a schizophrenic state they believe implicitly in the "voices" and other hallucinations, and there is no way to convince them that these are not "real." As my father got older, and as drug treatment improved, he had extended periods of lucidity. During these he "knew" that the hallucinations he had had were not real; however, he still remembered having heard/seen them.

AHunter3, it's obvious you were misdiagnosed - your posts are far too coherent to come from an actual schizophrenic (even a "recovered" or treated one), at least any that I ever had experience with. And I understand your point that there is at present no objective anatomical/physiological way to identify schizophrenia, and I sympathize with the trauma you went through in undergoing involuntary treatment/incarceration. However, to say that "schizophrenia" doesn't exist - well, I'm on the verge of taking offense at that (even though I realize you are saying it for the sake of your own self-image). This is a real and horrible disease, one that has blighted my family, and one I know all too well. (And I think it has an obvious genetic component in our case.) To have someone state that it doesn't exist, even to make a point about their own misdiagnosis, is deeply objectionable to me.

Phlosphr, thank you for the apology. I was about to throw a boot at you also. I would also, however, take issue with the statement about it being "thoroughly treatable." While new drugs have made it much more treatable than it used to be, neither my cousin nor my friend are able to live lives fully integrated into society.

[Zumba The Cat]

If you are really interested in what schizophrenia feels like I suggest reading The Quite Room by Lori Schiller.

It is written by a women who had her first "attack" of schizophrenia in 1976 at summercamp before her senior year of highschool. She was in and out of hospitals and halfway houses (and tried to take her life a couple of times) until 1989 when she finally started taking a dangerous and experimental drug which helped her live a more normal life.

It was a really eye opening book.

[ShibbOleth]

Originally posted by Zumba The Cat
Small correction: The Quiet Room by Lori Schiller.

There is a short note from Lori Schiller at the http://www.schizophrenia.com site. Here is direct link to the note.

originally from Lori Schiller

...I was afraid to tell anyone about the Voices for fear of being carried off by the "white coats." Imagine being a 15 year-old kid hearing the words over and over again: "You must die. You will die." And, imagine a naive little squirt keeping the echoing vicious Voices inside of herself for many, many years without sharing the pain and fright with anyone. Eventually, I entered the "revolving door" into the so-called mental health system. The doctors, so dapper and professional in their psychiatric style and attire, told my parents that I was a paranoid schizophrenic who had little chances of getting better. My diagnosis was just another "sick chronic psychiatric patient" to be shoved away forever
in some hospital. I can imagine how crushed my parents were, with their ignorance about mental illness and suffering along with me. But they didn't give up hope. Never.
...

The Quiet Room : A Journey Out of the Torment of Madness
by Lori Schiller , Amanda Bennett
Published by Warner Books
Publication date: January 1, 1996
Dimensions (in inches): 8.03 x 5.30 x .82
ISBN: 0446671339

Cassettes Edition
Audio Cassette
List: $17.00
Published by Time Warner Audio Books
Publication date: June 1, 1994
Dimensions (in inches): 7.10 x 4.57 x .78
ISBN: 1570420386

[AHunter3]

Colibri (and others) -- there is certainly a "something" from which many people suffer, a "something" that fits enough observable patterns for us to feel comfortable speaking of it as a unified phenomenon (as opposed to, say, "Gee, lots of people have thoughts and/or feelings that make them and/or other people uncomfortable"). And, yes, research tends to indicate that the observable (and felt) portions of this phenomenon have corollaries in bodily states (including, but not limited to, neural firing patterns, neurochemistry, and genetic patterns).

Nevertheless, despite approximately a century of insistent claims for its existence as a specific condition of physiological CAUSE by the psychiatric profession, I am of the (at least modestly informed) opinion that we cannot yet say, with any assurance, that the built-in differences constitute more than a predisposition towards a reactive pattern that anyone -- including you -- could experience under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

Certainly the symptoms are not alien to the experience of people who have come to comprehend those experiences as meaningful (rather than meaningless "static"-like) albeit uncomfortable and chaotic mental processes that were, fundamentally, responses of the self to the environment.

A predisposition towards becoming "schizophrenic" (if I may use it as an adjective) does not mean that one's voices and one's activity of standing outside the Lincoln Tunnel and blessing the cars as they emerge by touching their hoods are CAUSED by pathologies of the neural tissue, genetic glitches, or that culprit so often touted by the Alliance for the Mentally Ill the "chemical imbalance".

Now as to whether or not I was "misdiagnosed" -- it would be one thing if I'd been on a locked ward in the company of people who were substantively different from me, causing me to conclude that I didn't belong here and that a mistake had been made, but the truth of the matter is that there was no easily drawn line. Perhaps more to the point, when I've been to conferences of the National Association for Rights Protection and Advocacy (NARPA) or NY Project Release or National Alliance of Psychiatric Survivors and had the opportunity to sit in huge auditoriums full of people who were most definitely capable of being lucid and coherent, and spoken with them, I've heard NOT a recurrent theme of "Gee, they locked me up by accident but eventually realized that and let me go" and NOT "I was causing a disturbance so they threw me in with the nutcases and said I was one of them", but, rather, "They said I was sick and threw me into a ward full of people with very similar stories, and mostly they were just like us, give or take varying degrees of terror and anger, and no, the shrinks never at any point said 'whoops, you don't belong here', they kept me in for 5 weeks, two months, one year, three years, they forced me to take psych drugs / electroshocked me, they send a Public Health nurse around to try to get me to take my meds, they've hauled my ass back in about six times for no reason in particular, saying I'm 'sick' and I'm 'decompensating', ..."

Anyway, we've all heard the "Oh, WELL, they obviously made a mistake in YOUR case but what about the genuine blah blah" line a few times too many. No offense intended, but how convenient to say that about anyone who is, in the context of discussing the matter, capable of speaking out about it, that "oh, you don't count, we mean the REAL schizzies".

Personally, I think schizophrenia can happen to anyone. Happens to some easier than others, perhaps due to a range of biological predispositional factors, but, ultimately,...


schiz happens.

[Zumba The Cat]

[quote]Originally posted by ShibbOleth
[b]

Originally posted by Zumba The Cat
Small correction: The Quiet Room by Lori Schiller.

Thank you for the correction ShibbOleth. I did know that. Spellcheck did me wrong again.

[Kaje]

Not sure why I forgot about this earlier... It's been mentioned that drug users "know" that it's hallucination whereas schizzo's don't... However, with Datura for example, you think you're normal, maybe a little feverish, and then you get really confused because you're hearing very real voices, and perceiving very real visual disturbances. I was convinced that somebody was in the room with me saying things and then somehow hiding every time I turned my head to find them, it was just THAT real. I turned over all my furniture multiple times looking for this asshole.

The explanation I've heard for such experiences is that the active chemicals in datura, namely scopolamine and atropine, were neurologically active in a particular "primitive" region of the brain that does not deal with logic or awareness (hypothalamus? i'm just randomly stabbing, don't even know what that does). The part at the end of the spinal cord I believe. Any stimulus information that goes through there has normally already passed through the more developed parts of the brain that deal with "does that make sense?" type questions. This would obviously explain why hallucinations produced here are indiscernible from the real thing. I'm looking for the cite... I can't find it in either of the two places I normally find such information, so I'm not sure where I read that, and it could be totally invalid.

Anyway, if there is such a region where normally it is "assumed" that whatever comes out is valid, it could partially explain the nature of things like schizophrenia.

[Neurodoc]

I'm not sure if my post actually responds to the OP's question, but I want to say a couple of things...

Before I wnet to medical school and actually got to meet real live schizophrenics, my understanding of schizophrenia was limited to what I read and was taught by my undergraduate professors at UC Berkeley...

At that time I was convinced that schizophrenia was some sort of adjustment or social disorderthat could be corrected by compassionate "talk therapy" designed to provide the schizophrenic with "insight" into his disturbed thinking, as described in R.D. Laing's books. This view was encouraged by my UCB profs in psychology, sociology, and literature, who where by-and-large Liberal socialists who deeply distrusted the medical profession, and who felt that mental illness was environmentally caused and defined rather than organically caused.

As much as I beleived and wanted to believe this sociological basis of schizophrenia, I had to abandon it after I actually met, examined, and interacted with schizophrenics on the inpatient and outpatient wards. It seemed quite clear to me that this was an organic brain disease, and a serious and devastating one at that.

[honkytonkwillie]

Originally posted by Kaje
...a particular "primitive" region of the brain that does not deal with logic or awareness (hypothalamus? i'm just randomly stabbing, don't even know what that does). The part at the end of the spinal cord I believe.

amygdyla?

[Apricot]

Uh, since I don't get in anyone else's head, I can't compare notes.
I'm not schizophrenic, as I've only had one documented "psychotic break." It takes 6 months of affect to entertain a diagnosis of schizophrenia.
However, since auditory hallucinations have been my companion for 6 years now, I think I might have some insight.
I always have a beginning phase. White noise, soft, then louder over weeks. Deafeningly loud some times, too loud to think, my inner voice isn't loud enough for me to hear. I start to grind my teeth and have repetitive thoughts, phrases I can't stop thinking.
*This is where I take notice, de-stress, begin anti-depressants, maybe, cry, isolate a source of stress*
If it doesn't work, then the voices begin. I *know* they are NOT real. They are not mine. They converse with each other. They mean for me to overhear. They are not real, though. I ignore them. They talk louder. I am having trouble with activities because of the noise that has addled me for several weeks/months (think of me as weakened by the white noise, sleep deprived). One day, they start to convince me that they have good ideas. *HALT, WHOA, STOP* Anti-psychotics, Navane, risperidol.
One 3 month treatment with thiothixane destroyed my short term memory. I couldn't remember a phone number long enough to dial. One number, dial, next number, dial. Keep my finger on the spot so I can remember which number is next. Do it quickly, so the phone won't start beeping, and I have to start over. My new friend tardive dyskinesia. My new lifelong companion. At least it didn't alter my heart rhythm (skipping beats is bad) like a different drug I tried.
I am like every other person, I can take care of it myself. Any general practitioner will give you anti-depressants. I don't want those other drugs. I am fine without them. Just you wait, I'll be fine. I don't see a doctor. I have it under control. I just hope I am not mistaken.
Apricot: college graduate, 2 degrees, married, happy, employed, and sane, already regretting this post.

[Muad'Dib]

What would the voices talk about?

I do not mean to make light of this, but Drew Carrey once had this routine where he was wondering why the "voices" were always saying bad things. Is this true? Whenever people hear voices is it usually on the order of "you are going to die" "they are watching you". Do they ever just talk (to you?) about the weather, liberate France, or just completely benign things?

Can you carry on a conversation with these voices?

[owlstretchingtime]

The voices do appear to be uniformly negative. When I used to have direct contact with the homeless i had a truly bizzare experience when I was talking to a floridly ill scizophrenic who was telling me what the voices were telling him about me.

It boiled down to the fact that I was lying to him and wanted to harm him and that the residential unit I wanted to take him to was "torture centre" and that he should harm me (specifically by skinning me). Thankfully he had enough insight to realise that this was an illusion.

I never cam across a scizophrenic who heard voices that offered a positive slant on life.

[Apricot]

They always say bad things. That's why they call it *paranoid* schitzophrenia (you're supposed to laugh).

I know they are not there, but I can talk to them.
Well, I can when they're there. The voices are not always there, maybe 1% of the time, but for a stretch of weeks. When they (two, a man and woman) are around, they talk to each other. They want me to overhear. They say things like, "Jumping off a building would be nice.--Oh, yeah, that'd be cool."
I ignore them, I am not suicidal. I could tell them to shut up, but they're not real, and I don't want to talk to them, but my inner thought-voice could interrupt. I don't want to dignify fake people with an answer. Then I'd be nuts, talking to the voices in my head that I *know* are hallucinations.
Then, they might start talking about how nice the view would be on top of a building. Maybe they talk about how fresh the air would be. Heaven knows what they would say if I actually went up there. I think they might try to make me look over the edge, or something. I don't know. I don't listen to them, remember?
Apricot

[handy]

Even the deaf hear voices.

I like my friend Cameron, she stops talking to herself to say HI to me.

[erislover]

An ex GF's father has (trying hard to remember the name) acute schizophrenic something or other... he had schizophrenic episodes but was not schizophrenic per se.

He certainly, like Apricot, functions perfectly well. He (obviously) had a healthy daughter, a fantastic job, and was very, very intelligent.

However, he was also very religious, and his hallucinations were often in the form of Jesus telling him the bad things his daughter was doing. Also, he felt that Jesus had (at least one time) literally thrown him onto his bed in anger over something.

When he was medicated he was almost 100% "normal" (whatever that means, eh AHunter?) if a little... er, lacadasical about life. But when he stopped his medication she (his daughter, my ex) could always tell because he would begin looking at her strangely and asking her strange questions.

I also have a different friend who has a few diagnosed schizophrenics in the family, and I had the opportunity to question him (my friend) about how he had questioned him (his relative who was diagnosed). This person heard voices but none of the voices were directed at him. He was meant to hear them, but they weren't at him. Many times they were about him. Very troubling and interesting, IMO.

In conclusion, I think schizophrenia is like a cold: a lot of different symptoms got lumped into this term. Now, we don't say colds don't exist, and surely we could find a specific pathogen and say, "see, this is a cold," and likewise we can find a specific subset of currently-named-schizophrenia and say, once and for all, this is schizophrenia, but there are still many similar "diseases" out there which have similar results even if the causes are entirely dissimilar. holistically, then, it might be for the best to treat the effect, because the effect is what is the problem, and there are too many causes to pin down once and for all.

Phenomenologically I find that the brain-in-a-vat thought experiments line up perfectly with why people who hallucinate cannot independantly, at first or possibly at all, distinguish "fact" from "fiction." I can even understand why over time such a taxonomy could still present difficulties. It is all very troubling, IMO, and very thought-provoking.

[Homer]

Originally posted by Apricot
They always say bad things. That's why they call it *paranoid* schitzophrenia (you're supposed to laugh).

I know they are not there, but I can talk to them. Well, I can when they're there. The voices are not always there, maybe 1% of the time, but for a stretch of weeks. When they (two, a man and woman) are around, they talk to each other. They want me to overhear. They say things like, "Jumping off a building would be nice.--Oh, yeah, that'd be cool." I ignore them, I am not suicidal. I could tell them to shut up, but they're not real, and I don't want to talk to them, but my inner thought-voice could interrupt. I don't want to dignify fake people with an answer. Then I'd be nuts, talking to the voices in my head that I *know* are hallucinations. Then, they might start talking about how nice the view would be on top of a building. Maybe they talk about how fresh the air would be. Heaven knows what they would say if I actually went up there. I think they might try to make me look over the edge, or something. I don't know. I don't listen to them, remember?
Apricot

Sure, they're hallucinations. Sure, they're not real - to US. If you hear them, they are real - to you. Maybe no one else, but their very existance makes them real.

Can you humor me? Next time they show up, talk to them. Not about you - about them. Don't take no from them for an acceptable answer. Demand they answer your questions. The reason being, they must come from somewhere. A religious man might say demons, a learned man might say your own brain. But they come from somewhere and that somewhere is guaranteed to be at least a minimally intelligent source. In fact, if it is your brain creating them of whole cloth behind your back, that means that your brain has the power also to direct them in whatever desired manner, either directly through your influence or through it's own. Make sense?

So talk to them, ask them who they are and why they bother you. See if you can come to an understanding that they are not necessary, and you don't wish them to bother you anymore. If you're Godly, tell them to leave in His name - if they're "demons", you can cast them out in His name. If you're not a religious person, forget I said that - it doesn't matter to you.

Point being, these hallucinations are intelligently created and intelligently continued - they come from and intelligent source. An intelligent source, even an undirected source, can be directed and reasoned with.

You don't have to believe me, but this method works fine with my own voice - only mine's benevolent, He tells me things I would otherwise not know or remember or infer or understand. Yes, real, concrete things, that can be proven or logically understood and logically followed, not bizarre things like my shoes are made of butterflies. He's a nice guy. He helps me out, and I honestly and truly believe I am a better person for Him.

And, in case you're wondering, I'm not anyone's patient nor on anyone's medication. I'm undiagnosed, unharmed, and unharmful.

My own theory depends on what you believe - if you believe solely in the physical world and it's evidence, then my theory is that schizophrenic symptoms are simply "random" or unregulated brain sub-processes much like the subprocess that makes you, you. It's just that these aren't physically in charge of their being, you are. And, usually, that's a good thing. Remember, the brain, and the body as a whole, is nothing more than an insanely complex organic machine - a machine. It can have problems, sure, but the upside to it's complexity is that it usually can fix itself. Cancel the subprocesses - or, make them cancel themselves. That said, if you believe in a non-physical world, it's entirely possible that schitzophrenic symptoms are demons, or something of that nature. Of course, again, if you don't believe in any of that, then forget I even mentioned it - it doesn't pertain to you and I won't feel slighted by your disbelief in the least. Hell, I probably don't even believe it.

I could tell them to shut up, but they're not real, and I don't want to talk to them, but my inner thought-voice could interrupt. I don't want to dignify fake people with an answer. Then I'd be nuts, talking to the voices in my head that I *know* are hallucinations.

To be honest, I think this is the wrong tack to take. You could tell them to shut up, yes. Would they listen? If they would listen, why is it crazy to tell them to shut up? Perhaps they only say those bad things because they want, or need, to get your attention, and when they say normal things you don't pay any to them. If they will listen and you don't tell them, then I, IMHO, think that it is crazier to just allow them to exist than making them cease. Not that any of it is "crazy" in the first place, "they" are a part of "you", and the only thing that would make that crazy is if you can't accept that, and force conflict with it. There's nothing "crazy" about being unusual, the only crazy part is not being at terms with yourself. Also, they may exist only to you, but that doesn't mean they're fake. They're certainly real - otherwise they wouldn't even exist to you! Finally, you imply you're afraid to talk to them for fear of actually listening to them - don't be afraid of that. You'll only listen if you want to listen - you're not listening now, are you? And if you want to listen to them tell you to harm yourself, well, then you start to qualify as nuts.

Physician, heal thyself! Take a minute to try out my theory - take a minute to try to fix yourself. Your brain can do it. Your body can do it. Your brain has the power to alter it's own chemistry for the worse, why oh why do we not believe that it also has the ability to alter it's own chemistry for the better? It seems we merely refuse to try.

--Tim

[AHunter3]

The (thankfully few) times I've had voices, they were unpleasant, not just like mean-spirited or belligerent people but contemptuous and strong, and it was really hard not to feel that what they were saying about me (or about my behavior) was true. I could tolerate a little bit of 3rd-party critique, but not from such an angry and unsympathetic source! I have no interest in carrying on a conversation with them.

[Apricot]

I firmly believe auditory hallucinations, and other types too, are the result of unexpected brain activity. Unintended activity is mis-interpreted by the brain. A person with such hallucinations has either a propensity to have such electrical disturbances, or an inborn eagerness to interpret these activities as language. I believe this accounts for the link between head injuries and epilepsy and schitzophrenia. It also explains some of the genetic element. These things I believe to be factual.

This is my interpretation, for me: talking to them is exactly the wrong thing to do. It reinforces the brain's errant behavior. You don't want to have your brain learn to make out more and more speech from the random misfirings. Listening for the intellegence in the storm is only going to make more things for you to listen to.
In my case, there is always a progression: Meaningless noise to meaningful speech. To interrupt the pathway I use anti-depressants to change brain chemistry, or de-stress methods to help change my current mindset. They are only electrical mistakes, I am not going to lose anything when there are no more.

What's right for me is right for me. Why go looking for insanity? I like my life, I certainly don't want to have a metaphysical experience at the expense of my sanity.

I really don't think you understand. I am going to be charitable and believe that you don't know what voices can make people do. I would no more give control of my life to random brain activity then give control of my car to my cat. The penalty for error is death.

Apricot
I'd like to clarify. Although I said "auditory hallucinations have been my companion for 6 years now" in my first post, I did not mean to imply that I hear voices constantly. I have gone years without any significant auditory hallucinations. I intended to answer the OP, that is "what does it feel like." I only added treatment information because it seems to be part of what it "feels like."

[jab1]

Ahunter3, are you saying that you enjoy having schizophrenia (or whatever it is you prefer to call it)?

[heresiarch]

This is a very interesting (and disturbing) discussion.

Hearing voices reminds me of the (controversial) book "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Brain." The author felt that only a few thousand years ago, humans had a significantly different brain physiology. His theory is that a less-developed connection between the two hemispheres of the brain caused people to interpret ideas as coming from voices.

I don't want to veer off into the tangent of whether his theory is any good or not. I was just wondering what researchers are looking at in terms of the neurological basis of Schizophrenia. Does it have anything to do with degraded communication between the hemispheres?

[tarnik]

I knew a schizophrenic at one point. He was a vey nice guy. Unfortunately he believed that he was God, among other things, an spent a good deal of his time staring at the ceiling. The other people I know who think they're God (or somehow real important) are jerks.

[AHunter3]

Ahunter3, are you saying that you enjoy having schizophrenia (or whatever it is you prefer to call it)?

Overall, on balance (if that's not an unfortunate choice of words here), I like the ways in which my head seems to work differently than that of most other folks. The voices are a definite exception, but that's rare; and sometimes I get rather sad about...well, every now and then I get a strong sense of how uninvolved I am with other people, a distinct sense of outside-looking-in. That ranges from "Gee, everyone feels that way sometimes" through shades of "I have a set of life experiences that cause me to 'homogenize' less easily, but with the right people under the right circumstances I can be a friend and a participant" all the way over to "Face it, I'm like a sociopath except that I'm not violent. I don't take other people seriously, do I? And look at them, they do, in some important sense that makes me different, the others do."

What does it feel like? Well, most people's sense of reality is attained and supported, in part, by what I call "Did you see that?" moments. That is, most folks are leery of incorporating beliefs that are not shared by other folks, so when something comes along that provokes a "weird" conclusion, they tend to seek corroboration from others. That is not necessarily the ONLY reason they don't believe aliens are trying to control their thoughts through processes that can be blocked by wearing tinfoil hats, but it's a big part of it--their first reaction would be to turn to their neighbors and companions and say, "So, ha ha, sunnuvabitch, there are aliens after all, huh? So, uh, holy shit, you think we need to make tinfoil hats or something?" And if everyone else looked back and said "Huh?? What the fuck are you smoking?", they'd find it difficult to continue to entertain such a weird and uncorroborated belief.

So part of how it feels comes from not having that. Not getting corroboration and not checking for it because you don't expect it. Accepting that you take some things for granted that other people have never considered, and that you reject things that they take for granted (and expect you to agree with, I might add). And the scary part is that at any given moment you can start entertaining thoughts that aren't grounded, and build on them, and paint yourself into corners or get all invested in priorities and causes and ways of being that don't make sense, and there's no one to give you back a checksum to see if it all adds up, see? It's like the difference between driving on a paved road and driving in the direction you think you want to go but on hard-packed flatland that extends in all directions.

Unfortunately he believed that he was God

Me too. I am, of course. So are you, if you look. Did you think he was wrong? It is not only true, it is a truth of rather dramatic importance. And despite the universality of the condition, it is my responsibility to save the world. (Yeah, yours too, so get with it. What are YOU gonna do?)

[ultrafilter]

I've been watching this thread with some interest. I've experienced all of the symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia at some point, although they don't last for any length of time. :knocks on wood:

I haven't seen anything described in here that I would disagree with. For me, there were two types of voices. One I could easily identify, and it would occasionally show up to offer a commentary on what was happening. The second type was much more obnoxious; it would mimic the people around me and try to fool me into thinking they were saying things to me that were...well, let's say that it's a good thing I always managed to figure out the speaker before I responded.

I very much agree with AHunter3's last post; these symptoms are part of what sets me apart from the crowd, and they're almost part of my identity now. I don't think that I'm suffering to the point where I need help. On the other hand, it's difficult growing up different from everybody else, and there's still a pretty serious stigma attached to mental illness.

I've heard an interesting theory regarding the cause of schizophrenia. Some researchers think that the brain operates by putting together all kinds of possibilities and then throwing out the ones that don't fit (for whatever reason). Schizophrenia, the theory states, is the malfunction of the brain circuitry responsible for selecting among possibilities. I think I read this in a book called The Cerebral Symphony by William Calvin.

[royjwood]

It feels pretty normal to me!!!

[ejrn]

Has anybody here ever checked out Recovery Incorporated? I accompanied someone to one of their meetings and it seemed quite useful to the people there.

Most of the folks at this meeting were dealing with auditory hallucinations and/or bizarre thoughts and this self-help program gave them tips and techniques for dealing with them.

[handy]

Time for some humor: "I am serotonin impaired, so am I too"

[Gyrate]

Originally posted by handy
Time for some humor: "I am serotonin impaired, so am I too"

This is probably the place to mention that schizophrenia != Multiple Personality Disorder, despite the popular misconception.

[cmburns]

A little while ago on Discover or TLC I saw a segment on "Virtual Schizophrenia", a VR unit that was set up to mimic the effects of the condition. The goal of the device was to give people who know someone with schizophrenia at least a glimpse into what that person is living with. The segment I saw showed the viewer walking around a living room set where all of a sudden pieces of furniture would morph into faces, and voices would be heard coming from nowhere. The site below has an article that I think is describing something similar.

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/20...schizophrenia/

[gelid]

Thank you, AHunter3. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Muad'Dib]

I see at least one outcome of schizophrenia, a funky view of metaphysics and epistemology.

[erislover]

I seem to recall that schizophrenia can be understood by an excess of dopamine????

I asked a teacher about this once, that is, if I could theoretically simulate schizophrenia by somehow adding to my natural amount of dopamine, and she said "yes" but I remain skeptical. This thread seems to shy away from that. Can someone clear this up for me, please?

[erislover]

I should add, young Atreidies, that Mr. Hunter and I happen to agree on quite a bit of philosophy/metaphysics. So brain chemistry is in no way required for such views.

Besides which, I hear voices too. I just happen to be able to attribute all of those voices to specific stimulation patterns in my visual field.

[Lamia]

Originally posted by erislover
I seem to recall that schizophrenia can be understood by an excess of dopamine????

I asked a teacher about this once, that is, if I could theoretically simulate schizophrenia by somehow adding to my natural amount of dopamine, and she said "yes" but I remain skeptical. This thread seems to shy away from that. Can someone clear this up for me, please?

I have a medical condition caused by low levels of dopamine, and take a medication that increases the sensitivity of my dopamine receptors. The list of potential side effects for this medication include schizophrenia-like symptoms such as vivid hallucinations. I take it that if a person with normal dopamine levels were to take this medication, or if someone like me were to overdose on it, we would experience something similar to schizophrenia.

However, while excess dopamine is associated with schizophrenia it is unlikely that it is the lone factor in the disease, and I wouldn't expect that you'd be able to precisely "simulate schizophrenia" with dopamine alone.

[erislover]

Interesting Lamia... might I inquire as to what this medication is exactly (name)? Those whacky chemists, so inventive. I had never considered increasing the receptor's sensistivity rather than just putting more dopamine into the system.

So there was some truth to it after all. How very interesting. Thanks, even if you don't give me the medicinal name.