They also bring up the Meridian building fire, where the firefighting efforts were abandoned (after 11 hours) becuase they were afradi that: ta-da! The building might pancake collapse! Only the fire reaching the 30th floor suppression system stopped it.
Whereupon you ask how TRPTB heard of Operation Northwoods and managed to pull it off.
BTW, the “you’re” in the post above was directed at 9/11 conspiracy theorists in general, and wasn’t meant as an attack on anyone in this thread.
I love this part:
Charlie Sheen is a prominent CREDIBLE whistleblower? Did Charlie Sheen ever play a structural engineer in some movie or other that I missed?? 
I love this list of OTHER (presumed) ‘prominent credible whistleblowers’:
I’d say its an air tight case with such prominent credible whistleblowers as these…definitely SOMETHING fishy happened on 9/11. And these are just the folks to get to the bottom of it!
-XT
Yeah, but the towers didn’t have 747’s running into them, severing a large portion of the support structure, did they?
Er… you know, that last didn’t come out right. My apologies for the snarkiness of the tone.
I’ve never understood this explosives theory. I mean, the mode of collapse seems to me exactly what you would expect if one floor collapsed at the top, adding its weight to the next, then to the next etc… you’d get a domino effect exactly as observed, with a puff of smoke/dust shooting out as each floor dropped onto the next. Quite how these conspiracy wackos reconcile this with explosives I will never know…
Your link doesn’t work for me. But given that I had read about this pipeline, both in papers and in documents from oil companies well before 9/11, you’ll have a hard time convincing me it was a myth made up by conspiracists after the attacks. You’d have to prove to me first that an operable time machine is currently in use or that I had fake memories implanted.
The top floors of the Windsor building lost structural integrity because they weren’t up to fire code, causing the steel framework to collapse. If not for a massive steel-reinforced concrete slab between floors 16 & 17, the whole thing likely would have come down.
I don’t know about the Meridian but that sounds liike a smiliar fire code deal.
No, but I think I once saw him jump a car between two buildings in a movie.
And you have to prove to me that the attacks on the WTC/Pentagon had anything to do with the pipeline and that the pipeline was actually constructed. Nobody has done the first, and the second has not happened. So I call “BS” on the “the WTC was attacked to get a pipeline built” story.
Actually, I mis-implied what the link was - it ran down the history of how the Urban Legend started, not an actual “debunking” of it. My apologies.
Not at all.
Conspiracy theorists are much like Creationists. They fit every existing factoid no matter how obscure or unrelated and cram them into the conclusion they have already chosen.
It goes something like this.
Government= bad.
Government went to war with Afghanistan
There was once talk of a possible oil pipeline
Therefore they Government killed its own people to make pipeline.
OR
Government= bad
Government went to war with Iraq
George Bush senior went to war with Iraq that didn’t end in invasion.
Therefore George Jr had his own people killed so he could invade Iraq
OR
Government = bad
Governments like to take away citizens rights
New terrorist bills are invasive to civil rights
Therefore government Killed its own citizens to take away rights
Hell you could just as easily say
Government=Bad
Canadian Softwood lumber is cheaper than US Tariffs need to be maintained despite NAFTA
No one will question a trade dispute from a country terrorists may have slipped in from
Therefore Government killed its own citizens so it could frame Canada and keep high tariffs on softwood lumber.
Seriously though,
How can any rational person believe that in a room full of the people required to pull this off not one person would have asked “Excuse me, are you talking about killing our own people?”
Not one person involved has blown the whistle by now. Not a single person had a pang of guilt since. I mean the supposed objectives of this operation haven’t panned out (No pipeline, a mess in Iraq) so why wouldn’t someone say, hey our guys killed our citizens for no reason at all this was fricken evil… I better let someone know.
Sure it is fun to fantasize about shadowy people with black heats and no souls meeting and plotting against the world. But it’s only fantasy. Real human beings tend to be a hell of a lot more nuanced than that.
The number of people that would need to be involved had to be pretty damned big. I mean they needed people to hijack planes and set the explosicves and if the planes that hit the buildings weren’t the passanger ones hijacked, then they have to hide the real planes and either eliminate or hide the crews and passangers. All of that had to be done without anyone noticing or anyone involved getting second or third thoughts.
Phooey.
Obviously you’ve been brainwashed by Republican propaganda.
Oh, no, the American government would never even consider harming its own people for the greater good of America. Haven’t you people heard of Northwoods?
I’ve been talking about this for quite a while now (there is a 709-page-and counting thread on this on an Icelandic messageboard I frequent) but I don’t bring that in here, understandably (I hope). I have found, however, that debating this on messageboards is pretty much an exercise in futility. “Debunkers” tend to stay with the most ridiculous claims made by conspiracy theorists and judge the whole movement by them, like we have seen here. Who ever said there were no planes? Also, just because someone says he has debunked something, it doesn’t make it so. The Popular Mechanics article for example, so adored by you level-headed debunkers, is a farce.
If you really want to judge for yourselves, check out Prof. Steven Jones and watch his lecture from early February.
Let’s take this for example; the “pancace theory” is nonsense–conservation of momentum and all that. They crashed way too fast (even in a vacuum this would be too fast). The “puffs” you refer to were much lower than the collapse–just watch the video and you’ll see. Also, the squibs on WTC7 went up the building before it started imploding, not down as it went. Watch the WTC7 collapse and note that the floors are in fact not collapsing one onto the other; the buildings sinks more than it crashes.
There are also clues, such as molten and partly evoporated steel in the ruins of all three buildings, which really doesn’t make any sense unless you use explosives. There wasn’t enough heat from the kerosene fires to melt steel and if they were to weaken the whole structure so dramatically in about an hour, the idea of a heat-sink is obviously based on a spectacular misunderstanding of basic physics.
At this point, I’m really not bothered by being called a wacko because I know that there is a valid argument for the case of explosives. Check the facts out for yourselves (I recommend www.st911.org) rather than trusting Snopes, Popular Mechanics or Alex Jones for making your mind up.
I’m curious, though; how long has this discussion been going on in the US now? When Scholars for 911 Truth was founded, I had high hopes that Prof. Jones would help bring this issue to the mainstream media so that it could at least be investigated, and at the moment he does seem to be doing exactly that.
OR
Government = bad
Government has ties to Halliburton, Bechtel, Bell Helicopter, Raytheon, et al.
Government and their cronies saw big profits in Iraq
Therefore Government killed its own citizens so their cronies could rake in big profits
The above was taken from a real live conspiracy nut on another board that I frequent.
I have seen enough from Mr. Jones.
The fact that you call it ‘nonsense’ speaks volumes. Are you a qualified structural engineer? I think not. Pancaking is a theory in the same sense that gravity and electricity are theories. They are well known and have happened before 9/11.
And all what? You are an expert? How many buildings have you seen collapse without explosives
Not physically possible.
The ‘puffs’ are rather small compared to the shots of explosives on demolition projects. Most likely they are air being shot out from material collapsing internally.
The squibs on WTC7 aren’t much to get excited about:
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_squibs.html
And? How many buildings have you watched collapse?
It doesn’t make any sense even if you do use explosives. Add to that the fact that there is ZERO tangible evidence for the alleged molten steel. At best there are a few fragments from WTC7 that show small signs of meltage, but no pools of molten steel. This is a myth that 911 CT’ers have come to believe on faith.
A spectacular misunderstanding of physics that just happens to be supported and understood by just about every Structural Engineer in the world.
Why is it that if I come to a different conclusion than you have I have let these sites make up my mind for me?
Jones junk is nothing more than the old conspiracy junk with his name attached to it. It was junk before, and everything he has done since has been an embarassment. His latest stunt, demanding to X-ray a piece of what he calls ‘melted metal slag’ , but is visible to most folks as being reenforced concrete (with rebar sticking out) with some rust color to it.
I am unimpressed with what you have brought, but I was unimpressed with Dr. Jones nonsense from the beginning.
Which is consistant with a large explosion in the basement.
I never stated that the pipeline had anything to do with 9/11…
So your proof that Governments can get away with these conspiracies is by relating a planned terrorist act on civilians by the Governement that didn’t get any further than the planning stage? Not exactly a smoking gun if you think about it.
All kinds off oddball ideas fly about in the palces of power and some are even written own and given to people to plan out in detail (Hell there were plans for the invasion of Canada in a war with Britain). These are just proposals and not necessarily something that will get carried out.
Obviously someone saw them and said No, because of the very horrific nature of the idea. That would validate my idea that you can’t float outragious ideas without someone of conscience killing it.
Hell in dealing the whole Cuba/Castro problem there were a lot of crackpot ideas written out as possible plans.
Go ahead, bring it up. If you are afraid of scrutiny then don’t bring it up.
Tell you what open a thread with just the facts you want to debate and keep a tight focused question and see what happens.
There have been theories floated that the Planes that hit the building were not passanger planes but rarher military planes or drones.
pourquois? Why is it a farce? Or are they in on it too? The number of acomplisses seems to have grown
So what makes this guy more of an expert? Is it what he says, his background or his ability to speak on the points you want to believe?
Ok I’ll bite, what in the nature of a controlled charge demolition makes the building fall faster than the given explaination?
Tell you what, look into how “spontanious” Human combustion actually works if you want a clue. Low heat over a long while can accomplish the same results as a high heat over a short while especially if there are other things feeding the fire, you know like walls, paper, furniture, bodies etc.
Except for the niggley fact that it lacks logic. I mean seriously, why fly the planes into the buildings (A difficult and convoluted plan) when you could set of the explosives and claim it was terrorists? According to you they are already hiding teh fact it was explosives, so they could have just as easily hidden the origns of the bombs.
Why risk setting off the bombs after the news networks would have arrived to cover the plane crashes and risk having filmed the “squibs” going off?
Why destroy both buildings? One is fine enough, to get a scare in fact why bother to totally destroy them when the bombing alone could get people riled enough. Why crash a plane into a field on its way to Washington? What was the point of that one?
Let me understand this now. Joe Blow with some odd pictures and misinterpreted data, and heresay are facts we should believe, while people who have a running track record and reputation for looking into things thoroughly by research with multiple experts and if they are proven wrong publically recant are being blindly “trusted”. Is that the gist of it?
Lord save me from looneys