The question really is, are they right not to want those rebel Cylons as part of the fleet? Can they be trusted, and would they be an asset? Or will they cause more danger and harm than good? Racial prejudice alone seems to be the basis for the decision on its face, but deep down there’s a lot more to it than that. Zarek sees a way to undermine Roslin/Adama, and aggrandize himself. Gaeta is reeling from finding out about his own weakness and inner corruption, and rather than facing it, he’s channeling it into hating the Cylons. Do they have noble motives, or are their personal agendas severely affecting their stance?
I’m not even totally sure if the Cylons can be trusted. Who knows? But the point that those FTL upgrades will make the fleet 3x faster is a compelling argument in favor, as is the common enemy of Cavill. Cylons have already been accepted into the fleet, and have worked side by side with humans. What is the point of rejecting them now, esp. when they have so much to offer?
Frankly, I don’t believe he does. I think he manipulates people because they care about democracy, and they fear Cylons. He uses that to promote himself, and using fear is a pretty effective way to do that.
This is an unfair and rather incongruous analogy IMO.
Zarek does not care about maintaining democracy in the fleet. He cares about seizing power in the fleet. That has been his characterization since Season 1, and has remained remarkably consistent throughout the series.
He is presenting himself as caring about maintaining democracy in the fleet, because that is an appealing strategy. Obviously.
But if he actually cared about democracy in the fleet, he wouldn’t have taken over the black market, and apparently remained in control of it long enough to think that Adama revealing it to the press would ruin him. If he actually cared about democracy in the fleet, he wouldn’t have caved to Adama’s blackmail/bluff.
The thing is, that while Zarek may be scoring points claiming that the prophecies bandied about by Adama and Roslyn were wrong – they actually weren’t. They did find Earth, just as promised. There was just that little other matter of radiation that Pythia forgot to mention.
But everyone in the fleet had built their hopes on Earth. That was the point of Dee last week. Now, hopes dashed, Zarek is playing on those emotions to get people to give him more power. Again, an appealing strategy, and obviously one that is working.
Also, Zarek conveniently glossed over the fact that Adama imposed a Cylon on the fleet years ago – Athena is a Colonial officer, and has been since they liberated New Caprica. That is ample precedent for an alliance with the rebel Cylons. And the fleet really does need them – they’ve got Cavil on their tails and no place to run to any more. Adama’s policy isn’t wrong – it is just unexplained. Because it is Adama, and despite this biting him in the ass umpteen times, he keeps flipping the bird to the Quorum and the Press.
Forgive me - but that isn’t the question. Right or wrong, the question is whether it is the civilian government or the military that has the right to make this decision. I think it’s hard to make a compelling argument that a state’s foreign affairs should not be in the hands of its elected officials. If these elected officials happens to be wrong, then the solution isn’t for the military to sidestep them - it’s for the voters to toss them out in the next election. And if they screw up so catastrophically that there is no next election - well, that’s the risk we take with democracy. Maybe the alliance is a good idea - but it’s not the military’s call.
How so? Harding delegated to the point of impotence - he remarked that “I cannot seem to understand that I am President”, or something like that. Similarly, Roslin has stated very plainly that she wants to “live her life” - she’s weary of government, and does not intend to play an active role in it. Harding’s indolence led to disaster - so, too, will Roslin’s.
Did you see the “debate” about the issue before the question was called in the Quorum? Would you say that the relative merits and detractions of the Cylon alliance were fully explored and discussed, and that the Quorum made an informed and enlightened decision? Was Bill Adama allowed to present his side of the situation? No. The whole thing was jammed through, Zarek-style. They were manipulated by fear tactics. Zarek took advantage of Roslin’s absence to push through an agenda that was one-sided and ill-considered.
As for it not being the military’s call… unfortunately, this isn’t a situation where we can wait until the next election to make a decision, is it? There are less than 40,000 humans left, and they need to find a planet before their food runs out. There seems to be rather an undertone in BSG that sometimes, you can’t wait for the grist mill of democracy to finely grind out its decisions. When you do, you wind up with New Caprica.
You can explain it all you want, but Laura Roslin ain’t no Warren Harding.
It is pointless to argue whether or not the military or civilian leadership should decide whether or not to ally with the rebel Cylons. They already allied with them. That was how they blew up the rez hub last season.
And the civilian government made that decision. Made. Past tense. Alliance already in place. Done deal.
Adama was not deciding whether or not they should ally with the rebel Cylons – he was deciding whether or not they should install Cylon equipment on the fleet ships. Equipment that allows the fleet to get away from Cavil’s basestars. That was why he said it was a military decision – it is about improving the fleet’s ability to defend himself.
And that they decided way back in Season 1, was under military jurisdiction.
Zarek was using a technicality that it would be Cylons installing the equipment, to rabble-rouse. Because he’s Zarek. That’s what he does.
I agree with Lightray. Arguing about whether or not this should be a democratic decision is a fallacy, and accepting that premise is playing Zarek’s game. It’s too late to quibble about alliances with Cylons. It’s already happened. Closing the door when the horse is already out, and when the FTL technology could come in, is ridiculous. Both Zarek and Gaeta are doing this for personal reasons, nothing to do with democracy at all. It’s a red herring.
I really think Gaeta, aside from directing his self-loathing outwards, really wants revenge on Kara and Anders. His reasons for being involved in this don’t have a damn thing to do with democracy. Zarek’s motivations go without saying.
By this point, I think Felix is just out to get revenge against the entire universe. He’s had a sucky few years, and is using that as his excuse to lash out at everyone and everything.
Notice he was also being dickish to Cottle, the nurse, and Adama – none of whom had anything to do with his almost-airlocking or leg-blowing-offing.
He’s turned into a bitter little man. But the actor was really selling that performance!
Christ, can you blame him? whats-his-name shot his leg and it went gangrene. He heroically acted as a spy on NEw Caprica or whatever and they were going to murder him as a collaborator. And G-ddamn it, Starbuck is a bitch.
Yeah, but that’s not what really happened on New Caprica, as the webisodes revealed. He WAS collaborating, and he knew it, but ignored the truth so he could feel like a hero. Later, he got shot for committing mutiny, which is a crime, and he was wrong, but he’s about to do it again. He has learned nothing from his experiences, only bitterness directed outward.
Starbuck is a bitch, but in this case, Gaeta went in there to pick a fight with her about Anders being a Cylon, making allegations about him that were utterly unsubstantiated. He’s a hypocrite who is going to destroy the fleet rather than face the fact that he’s a weak little worm. I hope he does get airlocked this time.
Yeah, the thing about Gaeta’s whining about Anders is:
Starbuck didn’t know he was a Cylon either. And Felix knows that.
If he wants to know what Anders was up to on Caprica… why not go ask one of his former teammates and fellow guerilla fighters. Barolay wasn’t the only one they’d rescued from Caprica, after all.
Gaeta was, indeed, supplying information to the resistance on New Caprica. That resistance would be: Tigh, Anders, Tyrol. Starbuck was locked up by crazy Leoben during that time; Gaeta was supplying them with information… so who was working with the Cylons, then, Felix?
Sure, there’s been an alliance before - a temporary, tactical, limited alliance. The Cylons are now explicitly requesting a permanent alliance, leading to citizenship. That’s very different from the status quo.
Not so. Tigh is still XO. Athena is an officer. Anders is a pilot. Tyrol is Chief. They are all still walking around, doing their jobs. They are citizens and members of human society. Is it not arbitrary and ridiculous to reject their FTL upgrades, which would be a huge boon to humanity’s survival, because you don’t want a few more of them to be part of the fleet? Consider also that Cavill is an enemy that they will both have to fight. Why do it separately? There is no rational reason at this point to deny the Cylons’ request. Maybe earlier, when the only Cylon they knew of among them was Boomer. Now? It’s just jingoistic rabble rousing to forward the personal agendas of Zarek and Gaeta.
It was nice to get some good Doc Cottle in this ep.
I agree that a permanent alliance with the Rebel Cylons is a different proposition than the tactical alliance they’ve had up to this point, and that the President and Quorom need to be in on that decision. I also agree that Zarek is manipulating that situation to his own ends.
Also: the x3 FTL upgrade is a tactical military necessity, and under Adama’s purview. Why the hell couldn’t he sell it as such to the fleet? I’d think that he’s learned enough from Rosalyn by now to recognize the potential of the press as a tool for selling your own agenda.
You just listed four Cylons who appear to have already retained their rights as Colonial citizens. How many skinjobs are on that basestar? Hundreds? Thousands? I repeat: a few special cases constitute something very different from large-scale Cylon enfranchisement.
That being said - I don’t disagree that denying them citizenship would be a bad idea. My only point is that the simple fact Adama may be right in insisting upon it isn’t enough to justify him doing so. The FTL upgrades appear to be part of the citizenship/permanent alliance arrangement - which simply isn’t his call to make.
I think we may have to agree to disagree on the appropriate process the Colonials should employ in deciding this issues. When the Vice-President liberates the Fleet from you and your military-dictatorship-and-skinjob-sympathizer friends, I shall request that your airlocking be swift and painless. (Well, as painless as getting tossed out an airlock can be. Which probably isn’t all that painless. Sorry about that.)
carnivorousplant, sorry, your wife is right. That was NOT Robert Hatch. It was *Richard *Hatch.
A character-development ep here - Roslin pulling herself back together (seems all she needed was a good lay), Gaeta developing his disillusionment, Zarek being confronted with his ordinariness, Starbuck’s identity crisis … fine acting and writing all around.
Plot: Eyes on the prize, people. This kerfuffle about the alliance can’t last - the humans, the rebel Cylons, and the 4 of 5 all need each other to survive, after all. The story looks to me pretty clearly to be heading for a new synthesis of the species on some new home world, based on hybrid babies that we now know are possible (Saul and Caprica, sittin’ in a tree…)
Speaking of whom, who are they now?
Hera - skinjob Mom, human Dad, only known example.
Tigh/Caprica larva - skinjob Mom, Final Five Dad, so far so good.
Nicky - all human, sorry. That plot twist had to be to show a Final Five Dad can’t create a hybrid with a human Mom. In fact, none of the Five has produced children at all until the Tigh/Caprica hookup. I’m betting that’s pretty important going ahead.
Just watched this episode on Hulu. Overall, was a little slow for me - but then, I am highly anticipating the end of the series.
It seems weird that Ty is as lovey-dovey with the 6 as he is. After all, being a cylon doesn’t change what he’s done in the military over that past 30 years or how he feels. He’s still Ty.
I used to work for a guy that looked exactly like Gaeta…and acted the same way.
And this just hit me: wasn’t the actor who played Zarek on the original BSG?
Good episode. Thought-provoking, with a clear direction for the next arc. And hey, Roslin finally got herself laid. Score one craggy admiral for the prez!
