I think that God has inspired many other things besides the Bible. I’m always finding a passage that makes me think “Yes, that’s right! That’s very true!” And I’ll high light it or bookmark it.
But what is it in me that has reacted to that passage? There is something inside me first, waiting. I have come to think that this is the Holy Spirit that guides my thinking. It’s in all of us (not just Christians) and maybe that is one of the ways that we have of being One with each other.
A few days after the recent earthquake in Haiti, I had a dream in which I saw so many of the bodies bent and crushed under the buildings. And as I walked among them, they changed and became my friends and family. And I was just terribly overwhelmed with the sense of loss. I felt terrible grief. Then when I looked again, the Christ was in the road going from building to building and person to person, and he was saying, “This is my body; This is my body; This is my body…” I woke up during the last part and just cried. The dream was so vivid and painful. The meaning of it was as clear to me as any scripture.
I wish that the Biblical Canon would perhaps be reopened so that other scripture could be considered. It’s been a long time. Some of the things that were rejected before should be reconsidered. And writings by wise men and women since the closing of the canon should now be considered.
Also, it would be good to include an equal number of women on the Council this time.
What evidence supports the atheistic position that there are not gods?
The only thing I ever hear from atheists who profess (which is to say, “believe” and have “faith” in their beliefs) that there are no gods are variations on “theists cannot produce a god for inspection” or “there is no need for a god to explain existence.”
Neither of those truly are evidence of there being no gods…anymore than the fact that no one can produce evidence of life on any planet circling the nearest five stars to Sol and the fact that there is no need for their to be life on any of those planets…is evidence that there is no life on any of ‘em.
The fact that idiotic claims are made about some of the invented gods is not evidence that gods do not exist.
The “evidence” does not favor atheism…particularly if you are defining atheism as the denial that gods exist. And if you are making a guess that no gods exist…it is a blind guess whether you want to acknowledge that or not. But we can discuss it if you want.
Yeah, I understand. The Christians with whom I debate have reasons like that for why they say “There is a God.” But I try not to deal with rationalizations…and prefer to stick with facts.
Whatever you say. However, if you are going to assert that you know the true nature of the Reality of Existence (you can rule in or rule out certain possible ingredients) you have to do a lot more than talk about your beliefs and faith.
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The fact that idiotic claims are made about some of the invented gods is not evidence that gods do not exist.
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How do you tell the invented gods from the rest?
Actually, it does favor atheism. We have no objective evidence that anything defined as a god exists. Even after 1000s of years of effort and 1000s of different attempts to codify what god wants, we still have nothing. The logical conclusion of this is that gods do not exist. Until we have actual evidence of a god, the evidence favors atheism.
I’m a non-believer, and I promise that I do not mean this as “taking a shot”, but since the Bible contradicts itself, isn’t it impossible to believe that it is 100 percent the word of a perfect God?
Here’s one example: there’s two contradictory accounts of what Judas did with the silver, and how he died.
Matthew 27:5 (King James Version)
And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Acts 1:18 (King James Version)
Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
HotFlungWok, you quoted me saying: “The fact that idiotic claims are made about some of the invented gods is not evidence that gods do not exist”…and then asked:
It is not necessary to do so. Even if humans are completely wrong about every notion of gods…that is not evidence that gods do not exist.
No, actually it doesn’t…but I understand it is important for atheists to consider that it does.
What it is evidence of is…that there is no evidence of gods existing.
Let me ask you this: Do we have any objective evidence that sentient beings exist on any planet circling the nearest 10 stars to Sol?
HINT: No we do not!
Now, supposing your answer is “NO, we do not have ANY objective evidence that sentient beings exist on any planet circling the nearest 10 stars to Sol”…
…would you consider that evidence that no sentient beings exist on any of those planets…or simply evidence that we have no objective evidence that sentient beings exist on any of those planets?
By the way…before you reply (because I’ve had dozens upon dozens of atheists respond to that question in the past and I know the general tenor of those responses)…the next question would be: Is there any objective evidence that unicorns do not exist on any planet circling the 100 (yes, I’ve expanded) nearest stars to Sol? And if not, is that evidence that no unicorns exist on any of those planets…or just evidence that we have no objective evidence of it?
We have objective evidence that they could, which is more than you can say for God. We know with 100% certainty that sentient beings can evolve on a planet - we’re proof of that. Then it’s just a question of how common it is.
There is no similar evidence that God is possible, let alone that one exists.
We don’t really need evidence of god’s non-existence. We have no actual evidence of god’s existence, so the logical conclusion is that god does not exist. All the evidence we have dealing with the question ‘Does god exist?’ points to ‘no’.
It’s kinda both. No objective evidence of X existing is a reason to believe X does not exist. It doesn’t prove X does not exist, and I’ve never claimed that it did so. But it is evidence to be weighed in the question.
Why would I need evidence that unicorns do not exist on some faraway planet? I have no evidence that they do exist, and so no reason to even bother believing they exist in the first place.
An atheist does not need prove of god’s non-existence to validate their conclusion. A complete lack of evidence of god’s existence is all that should be necessary.
Just to point out that a pastor is just a fellow servant, no higher then anyone else in the church, don’t put anyone between you and Jesus, including pastors in your seeking. You want to be able to go directly to the Lord and get answers direct from Him, not through a pastor, though God’s leading can come through anyone including pastors.
God is willing to prove His Word to us if we follow His instructions in His Word (Seek Him with everything you have). It is God’s job to prove, yours to seek. At one time I though much of it was stories, or inaccurate and conflicting reports, but God has shown me that His Word is exactly how He wants it down to the periods at the end of the sentences.
It could have been, Jesus was called demon possessed and raving mad by some, King David hid in caves, but God can use anyone, even a crazy guy smoking opium in a cave somewhere. There is a gift of the Holy Spirit called in scriptures ‘distinguishing between the spirits’ (sometimes called discernment, though that term is not scriptural as a gift). It is the Holy Spirit letting you know what is the source of information, so again that proof is up to God.
Actually in many cases He does. We learn by a very restrictive written code, afterwords we find out that God never wanted us to live by that code but just to Love eachother, and if done in Love one can violate the written code - this is called grace. One way that I use to explain it is don’t let the law get in the way of serving God.
Because they have proven themselves to people over and over again.
The current books can be used to justify organized religion, and give power to those religious structures. The apocrypha tends to go into more that the power that we assume God gives to pastors, is also equally for you and every believer.
IMHO one should stick with the Bible till they can feel and hear God’s leading, then let God lead them to the apocrypha.
Please…if you use the word God…you must be referring to a particular one.
I use god…or more often, gods.
We have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there are sentient beings on any planet circling the closest 5 stars to Sol. PERIOD! We have none…absolutely none.
You say we have objective evidence that “they could” exist.
What is that?
We have absolutely NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER that beings of any kind…indeed, life of any kind…exists anywhere else but right here on planet Earth.
Yes it is possible…and it is possible unicorns exist elsewhere. And it is possible the explanation for existence involves gods.
So what is your point?
That has nothing to do with the question that I posed…which was very specific for a purpose.
What are you saying here? Of course it is possible that there are gods. If you have evidence that it is impossible…please present it and I will consider it.
No it doesn’t…except in the minds of atheists who will not see that that line of thinking is the kind of thing that makes theistic rationalizations so unpalatable.
Stop thinking about it as the question: “Is there a god?”
Think of the question this way: “How did existence (not the universe) come about?” “How is it that existence IS?”
“Based on what we have to work with…what can we specifically rule in…and what can we specifically rule out?”
“The complete lack of evidence”…is the weakest part of the atheistic argument.
In any case, even if we assume that god(s) might exist because something had to create the universe, we then have to figure out who or what created god(s).
Back to square one.
“The complete lack of evidence…” isn’t the weakest part of the atheistic argument. It is the atheistic argument, and as an exercise in logic and reasoning it is absolutely unassailable. You cannot rationally argue for the existence of one or more deities on a scientific basis.
You can argue for them on an irrational basis (ie., faith) but that isn’t what you’re trying to do.
ETA: I do not personally rule out the existence of one or more supreme beings, for the record. However, I accept that is is profoundly unlikely that any such being exists.
