I like the way the dead never actually come up with anything in the way of genuine revelations. I’ve seen Edwards and Van Praagh, and the message is always some vague feel-good stuff like “they want you to know that they are with you.” You never hear “That bastard you married is sleeping with his secretary,” or “You need to have that mole on your inner thigh checked out,” or “The deed is in a lockbox in the crawlspace.”
Well, maybe the dead have the Prime Directive!
CITE?
So are we Leroy, so are we.
By the way, my comments were sincere.
QUOTE]From Don Willard
Anyway, several questions: 1) don’t debunkers dismiss the possibility of communication with the spirits too readily; 2) why do James Praagh and Edward say that the dead are watching and helping out
[/QUOTE]
1)Yes, yes we do. All of the ducks I’ve seen on Halloween haven’t worn costumes. So if I see a quacking bird flying overhead, I’m going to assume it’s a duck and not a manatee trying to get Fun-Sized Snickers bars.
2)Because what better way to get you to believe but by pulling on your heartstrings. Ol’ school psychics from the 80’s like Jean Dixon used to predict what was going to happen during the year. If I remember right, she wasn’t. The claims also didn’t grab the people’s attention because they weren’t feeding their egos either. Dead Auntie Hildy saying that she’s glad you’re still wearing that blue sweater is going to suck you into the ignorance vortex a lot quicker.
3)Hi Opal
4)Just because someone doesn’t agree with you or doesn’t believe what you’re saying and is trying to debate you, doesn’t make them a jerk.
“We live in a society that is enlarging the boundaries of knowledge at an unprecedented rate, and we cannot keep up with much more than a small portion of what is made available to us. To mix that knowledge with childish notions of magic and fantasy is to cripple our perception of the world around us. We must reach for the truth, not for the ghosts of dead absurdities.”_James Randi[
I just finished David Blaine’s recent book, Mysterious Stranger, in which he performs a cold reading on the reader! It’s a pretty good performance, and he explains the technique. He also cites to quite a few works on the subject. I can’t recall the authors or titles (sadly), but Blaine’s book and the Amazing Randi’s site are good places to start. Blaine cites works that were published when Randi was a mere pup at best. The term “cold reading” is quite old, as is the technique.
Sorry, but I cannot accept the claims of the psychics. Magicians such as Blaine and Randi can duplicate their achievements using nonsupernatural techniques. The parsimonious explanation is that “psychics” are using the same techniques. Some of them may also be frauds (and, in fact, their frauds have been well established); some may honestly believe that they have some mystical power. But, again, there is a more parsimonious explanation that covers all of the observations. With all due respect, I’ll stick with that one.
I had a vision that someone would say that.
—Psychics are used to this approach and will make a list of things they “see”; it is a challenge for them as well as you, they love it.—
Oh, yeah, they must love it: that’s why people like Edward and Van Praugh design their entire act around making sure no one ever gets them in such a situation directly.
—I know about cold reading , it was an invention of Randi’s. It just doesn’t happen and if you read the address I offered you saw that.—
Hello? Cold reading has been part of every magician and mentalist’s act for centuries. Randi knows about it BECAUSE HE IS A MAGICIAN. What he finds dishonest is that people are using it to decieve people, pretending that it is more than part of an act.
It’s pretty obvious that people like Edward and Van Praugh (who has actually been around much longer than Edward, and is actually far better at cold reading than Edward: he just isn’t as attractive) are doing cold reading, because their set-ups, from how they interact with their audiences, to the “rules” they establish for how people are supposed to respond, to the sorts of questions/statements they make, etc. Can I prove absolutely that they aren’t REALLY talking to the dead? No. I mean, I can’t prove that my toaster isn’t talking to the dead either.
But isn’t it a little odd that their METHOD of doing readings happens to be EXACTLY the sort of method that mentalists learn to use to perform magic tricks? My toaster, if it is talking to the dead, is at least doing so in a way that’s distinctly different from a magic act. And no one is paying it to do so, either.
[cold reading]Ok, I see an older person, a woman, who is very important to you. She has health issues and you worry about her. It’s ok, it’s not her time yet…she has much left to teach you. She also has a secret…something she never told you before…
I see that you love the person you are with, but you often have disagreements, sometimes nasty fights…you fight about small things, unimportant things, but really you have issues, underneath the surface, that you don’t talk about…money is an issue, yes?
You also have concerns about a child…it may be your child or it may be another child who is close to you…a nephew? A niece? It may even be a child that is not yet born…are you expecting? No matter…whoever the child is, the child will be fine…it is a very special child, is it not? You have never known another child like it.
You sometimes like your work and sometimes do not. You have had problems with at least one co-worker…you feel, sometimes, that you are under appreciated. You feel that you should be paid more. You have thought of looking for another job…you have even looked at want-ads, or perhaps on the internet? Keep looking. within a year, you will find a job that is perfect for you.[/cold reading]
How’d I do?
GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!
Aha! I see that you are in St. Paul, very close indeed to my location in Roseville. That must be why I’m getting such a strong reading.
Whew! Here I thought you were talking to me.
F******* H*****. I knew what you were doing, and you were tugging at me. Give up the day job, Dio.
Tonight’s episode of South Park was a great parody of “cold-reading”. Hilarious.
Yeah, I see Edwards do that all the time.
[Edwards]
“Sorry, I’m getting nothing here. I guess the spirits don’t want to talk to you.”
[/Edwards]
:rolleyes:
But these guys aren’t spreading ignorance. Just taking advantage of the fools already out there. These people want to be lied to because it somehow makes them feel better.
Trying to answer many posts with one:
Yes, there is a spirit world, after my NDE I could communicate with it. I have talked with my deceased mother and father as well as other relatives.
Yes, there is verifiable material. My dad told me once not to go to bed because my brother was about to call me. My brother called about 5 minutes later, it was rare for him to call, maybe once a year tops. On another occasion, years ago, I was told my love would reach people all over the world. I thought this was crazy at the time. My website does do that now, and I receive letters from people all over the world telling me how appreciative they are of my site and its message of love. At the time I was told that, I had no computer and didn’t know anything about the internet.
Harry Houdini had a code message known only to him and his wife. After his death Houdini"s wife received this message from a psychic. There are more of these if you care to look them up.
The point is, I know/believe it happens. You are, of course, entitled to not believe it. But you are not entitled to slander others that do, or psychics that read for them.
The reality of psychics will never be “proved” to skeptics, in the lab, or out of it. Skeptics never read spiritual material, never make appointments with people like John Edward, George Anderson or James Van Praagh, and never stop being skeptics.
Personal experience is the catalyst of change.
So let’s go our separate ways and not destroy each other.
Love
Leroy
Not true. Harry Houdini was a well-known debunker of spiritualism in his day (James Randi follows in an illustrious tradition of stage magicians debunking those who claim to be doing the real thing). And Harry Houdini did have a coded message known only to him and his wife, and his wife did hold a seance after his death in an experiment to test supposed communications from the afterlife, BUT
Houdini would undoubtedly be turning over in his grave right now, if the dead were capable of such things.
(Edited to add links. – MEB)
lekatt,
NDE’s are normal physiological responses to certain abnormal physiological states. You need to read Susan Blackmore’s books: Beyond the Body: An investigation of out-of-the-body experiences, and Dying to Live: Science and the Near Death Experience. In the meantime, I suggest you read her short discussion of why, after many years of strong belief in psychic powers, she finally admitted to herself that it was pure bunk. It can be found at http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/NS2000.html
A good friend of mine had a powerfully evocative NDE as a result of a horrible auto accident. She had to be airlifted by helicopter to the hospital, and afterwards she told everyone – repeatedly – that her “spirit” hovered over and looked down at her seriously injured body, heard every word spoken by the pilots and paramedics (she also claimed to be able to read all their name tags), and noticed all kinds of specific details of the inside and outside of the helicopter, as well as all the usual stuff about a white light and a tunnel, straight out of the standard reports that Blackmore explains so well. She asked her Mom to bring a tape recorder so she could record her experiences in detail.
Being a true, open-minded skeptic who was certainly willing to believe her but also eager for at least some independent verification, I finally talked her into trying to validate that record. It turns out that she got NONE of the names correct. It turns out that she got NOTHING specific about the conversations correct (although they did talk about her injuries as she said, but that’s exactly what one would expect). She got NONE of the details of the interior and exterior of the helicopter right. In fact, she was wrong in every verifiable detail, even though she refused to accept that. She still insists that everything she recorded was exactly correct. I gave up challenging her, because she was far too much in love with her illusions. Her self-deceit brought her great comfort.
Sound familiar? No, I’m sure you’ll deny any similarity.
But here’s something for you to think carefully about: Psychics like Edward and Van Praagh smoothly ramble tritely about trivialities and never tell us anything significant about the afterlife! Are they in one of Mormonism’s three heavens? Are they in a Catholic or Pagan purgatory? Are they awaiting reincarnation? What??
No, the dead blather about where they left the insurance papers and suggest interior decoration advice such as straightening pictures!
This “talking with the dead” rubbish is a total con, sir. And a truly laughable one at that!
When the dead start telling us which God and religion are the “True” ones and quotes Charles Lindbergh, Jr. about who actually kidnapped him and where to find the conclusive evidence, only then might there be any reason to start taking it seriously.
PLEASE! try to format your posts in a more readable fashion; the above quote, for example, could be read as saying:
Recently a tv psychic said to this lady that there were pictures of some departed loved one of hers that were tilted, and she cried and said "oh that’s true! I don’t see how a psychic medium could come up with things this particular from a cold reading or trickery."
or
Recently a tv psychic said to this lady that there were pictures of some departed loved one of hers that were tilted, and she cried and said "oh that’s true!"
I don’t see how a psychic medium could come up with things this particular from a cold reading or trickery.
This site is a joke-this is a source of credibility?
Granted this isn’t on the topic, but COME ON! You might want to pay more attention to whom you cite.:rolleyes:
I totally agree, and I think it’s a horrible thing to do-take advantage of someone in their time of need.