Man didn’t produce the evidence that backs the conclusion that the earth is much older than 6000 years; the earth produced this evidence. Science is merely the notation and tabulation of the universe’s wisdom. (In that way it’s separate from religion, which can fairly be called “man’s wisdom”.)
For the universe to be reporting incorrect information about itself, it would have to have been deliberately modified on a massively comprehensive scale. This would cause science to deliver a true understanding of a false world (which is not a false understanding of a true world, but close enough).
From the sound of it, you believe this happened; that God planted lies throught the universe and is, thus, a deceptive trickster god. Is that an accurate summation of your beliefs on this matter?
While I think kanicbird is as touched on this issue as my family is, I also think you’re drawing a false dichotomy. There are at least four explanations for the difference between the scientifically-calclulated age of the Earth and that attested to in Genesis:
[ol]
[li]Science is right, and the Bible is either completely wrong on this issue or not meant to be taken literally.[/li][li]Science is wrong, and what scientists think of as their evidence is the result of a trickster God screwing with them for his own inscrutable purposes.[/li][li]Science is wrong, and what scientists think of as their evidence is the result of Satan deliberately planting false clies for evil purposes.[/li][li]Science is wrong, and scientists are engaged in a vast conspiracy to cover that up, either deliberately or because of spiritual blindness.[/li][/ol]
I suspect tht kanicbird, like my older brother, beleives some mixture of 3 & 4. This belief is akin to the doctrine of total depravity, which holds that unsaved humans are incapable of apprehending the true nature of reality. There’s an enormous logical problem with the doctrine (and I think it’s bullshit) but the issue is not quite so simple as begbert2 seems to imply.
kanicbird said “God states in His Word that He did this (or allowed this) on purpose.” That parenthesized “or allowed this” basically covers case 3 - there’s little difference between a God who does his own dirty work or simply sits back and chuckles as he lets Satan do it. (Even if you don’t happen to believe that Satan is God’s employee, as is implied rather strongly by Job.)
It’s true that I can’t counter the fourth option - except to point out that science actually works. If science did not accurately describe and predict the behavior and reactions of the world, inventions based on science would not function, and we would not have televisions, computers, cars, medicine, - heck, we probably wouldn’t have wheels or fire!
Science is incapable of discovering the truth, philosophy is incapable of understanding the truth, or to put it as stated above science tried to find the truth about a false world.
I’ve always loved that one: Something goes well, it’s God’s Work™; something gets fucked up, it’s human fallibility. Really nice deal the ol’ bugger’s carved out for himself there. (Or maybe you’re just worshipping Al Gore, in which case I’ve said nothing.)
I’m not sure what the point of tihs post is, but it’s certainly not a response to my post, since you’re accusing me of saying things that I never said. (As usual.) I think you’re the one who should try again.
How do you know the scripture is God Breathed? You are a human, an any one who told, taught, or wrote that, is human, so there is no such thing as God Breathed, only the “word” of humans.
You believe it is God Breathed and that is your right but it is no more God Breathed than the Koran. Because it disagrees with you you think every one else is demonic. The only way the argument I present is condsidered false by you is because of your beliefs, not any proof is offered by you. You seem to think you are the only person who is right; that is an egotistical way of looking at things and no honest debate, your thinking is not a proof of any thing except of your personal beliefs.
I’ve seen this thought expressed many times, but I don’t follow it. If God’s plan is salvation for humans and Satan’s plan is mucking things up, isn’t the score with the world’s current population something like God–500 Million, Satan-5.5 Billion (depending on your salvation theology)? And none of that weasely “No one knows how many are saved” stuff. For folks with views as Biblically narrow as yours, whatever that number is, it ain’t the majority.
I mean, who is winning, exactly?
Or, if you just want to look at net suffering v net joy, who is winning? And over the course of the last 6,000 years, who has the overwhelming lead for saved v lost and sufferers v joyful?
It’s one thing to proclaim that man is simply blinded by his human-ness and can’t figure out how old the earth is. No argument against such a position gets past your core axiom that man is insufficient.
It’s quite another to proclaim that God is a winner at the game of saving the lost and that he can let Satan run amok but still save his children. Apparently not. Very apparently not.
God knows we are incapable of knowing that, so He gives us His Holy Spirit, which is God in us, that Spirit, which is God Himself, testifies to the truth of His Word. It doesn’t work as: accept the Word first, then believe, but believe and He will reveal His Word.
Demons and men are gods (according to God), so yes the Koran was written by at least one lesser god. It is a book of slavery and forced worship, it does much to diminish the glory of God and lead people away from Jesus, the only way to God. You can worship the demon Allah if you wish, but that is not a god I wish to serve.
If you were a spirit filled mature believer in the Lord Jesus we could have such a honest debate, reason together along with Jesus Himself, with His Word.
God has set out with a desire for ALL his children to be saved and is all powerful and all knowing and God has won already. I don’t see how each and every one of His children could not be saved.
It is only your belief that the scripture is God Breathed, you believe the human who taught you this, or what you read, thought, or imagined. How can you prove the writings of humans are God Breathed?
The argument that you claim falls by the word of God is just a human conception and you buy into that…that is your right,but it is not proof, and to think that you are the only person who knows what is God’s word is a very egotistical way of looking at things. You seem to think any one who doesn’t think as you, are demon possesed, perhaps you could consider that your interpretations could be wrong. The god who’s word you seem to cling to is not a very good entity, and you do not make this god of yours sound very much like a loving caring being,The way you describe him sounds almost like he is demonic!
Why are you the only one who knows all you say you know about God?
Whenever I participate in a thread about evolutionary psychology, someone claims that they can provide evidence of this sort, but nobody actually does. Maybe you’ll be the first.
I’m glad that it’s so completely different from the bible, then, where the slavery and forced worship only serve to enhance the glory of god and lead people towards Jesus.
The OT does have such characteristics, it is what man must accomplish perfectly to be counted worthy, only Jesus was able to do that, and the only one worthy. Through Jesus we are free of that forced worship and now can personally know God as a friend and a child of the King.
Translation: If we believed exactly as you believed, there wouldn’t be a need for debate.
Well, duh!
The trouble is, if we follow your idea to its logical end, we have to ignore everything you say because it came from you and not God. If everything everyone else teaches about God is flawed because man is flawed, then either your teachings are just as flawed as everyone else’s, or you are claiming to be some sort of special messenger, hand-picked by the Holy Ghost.
Of course, if you claim the latter, we still have the option of ignoring you because you would still be a flawed human when you made that claim.
