Firearm experts - is/was the M16 a piece of crap?

I think I have said it on here before, but I’ll repeat myself on this topic.

There are 2 fundamental things to keep in mind when it comes to comparing the AK family verses the M16 and it’s decendants… You are really trying to compare to very different tools, that happen to have some overlap.

The M16/M4 is a rifle first. It is fairly precise, and is designed to be accurate out to 400 yards right out of the box. This is due to a fairly high standard of individual marksmanship in training for our military forces. The M family is a rifle, that can (if necessar) be used as a machine gun.

The AK family is a machine gun first. It was designed with less accuracy, both because it was designed as a machine gun (what we would think of as a support weapon, or a force multiplier) and also to meet up with Soviet military doctrine. I don’t have my books with me, but I believe Soviet doctrine was built on the idea of a 200 yard engagement distance.

So the M16/M4 is a rifle that can function as a “machine gun”.

The AK47/AK74 is a “machine gun” that functions as a rifle.

Both are very very good at doing what they were designed to do, but doing a straight point to point comparison is like comparing a truck to a car… similiar, but different.

I’m not a weapons expert, but I did train in ROTC on M-14s and M-1 carbines. And by “train,” I mean to disassemble and reassemble them blindfolded. And clean them.

Then when I was issued my first M-16, I thought it was highly evolved. It was lighter, easy to use and put together and I was impressed with the design – not so much sophisticated as simpler and more practical. And by the time I got one, some of the earliest bugs were worked out (like the helper/pusher gadget so you could be sure a round actually got seated in the chamber when you couldn’t see it).

However, I cannot claim to have been involved in a real firefight, so maybe my opinion isn’t worth much.

And I was ALWAYS told to clean the weapon; I never, ever heard anyone say it didn’t need to be cleaned. You get a barrel plugged with mud, and your ass is grass if you fire it. No sirree, bob, we had to clean them again and again.

One of the interesting Truisms about military rifle shooters on the internet is that everyone’s old military rifles can apparently shoot 1 MOA. Doesn’t matter if it’s a 100 year old Lee-Enfield which was found in the back of a cleaner’s closet in a disused monastery high in the Himalayas or a or a Vietnam War SKS which spent a significant amount of time submerged in a rice paddy, or a Falklands-era L1A1 SLR which was never taken out of its wrapping and sat in an armoury somewhere for years; they’re all apparently capable of match-grade accuracy. (/Sarcasm mode)

In reality, as SenorBeef notes, “accuracy” for a lot of service and battle rifles can really be summed as “Can this rifle reliably hit a the centre mass of a man-shaped target at 100 yards?” If the answer is “Yes” then it’s not really “inaccurate” in that context- but it’s not the sort of accuracy you’d want from a marksman’s rifle or even a decent range rifle, either.

When the AR came out, folks thought that the reason it produced ugly wounds was because of the velocity. They were only part right.

Any long, pointed bullet will ‘tumble’ within the target, in that it will rotate 180 degrees and finish traveling base first. How far it travels before doing so varies between bullet types (even the .22 LR will do so). You can see examples of that if you go looking for the wound ballistic diagrams produced by Dr Martin Fackler. Some of those can be seen here at the Firearms Tactical Institute web page (scroll down and click on the links). For the M193 fired by the M16 series or firearms, if the bullet is traveling above 2500 fps when it yaws, it will fragment. The fragments create multiple wound channels, and the subsequent temporary cavity stretch will tear the weakened tissue. Under 200 yards, it’s not a bad round. Over 200 yards, it sucks. Information I’ve seen on the M855 is that it performs closely to the M193, but the M855A1 may be worse.

From a shorter barrel, like the M4, you’re starting off close to that 2500 fps range for fragmentation, so you’re sacrificing bullet lethality right off the bat. With the military fussing about creating a ‘greener’ bullet, it’s getting worse as the bullet designs appear to be reducing fragmentation potential even from a full length barrel. If I had to carry an M-16, I’d rather have the 20" barrel. I don’t want folks I shoot getting up again to shoot back.

In reference to the Op, many years ago I had occasion to read the Congressional report on the M-16 (the infamous Ichord report), which came about form reports on failures of the M-16 in Vietnam. Though they did verify that soldiers had died with their torn down M-16s next to them, there weren’t ‘dozens’ of Marines who died this way. There were only two. And yes, even two is two too many, but it wasn’t the disaster as was rumored.

I’d also recommend the Terminal Ballistics forums at m4carbine.net for some good wound ballistics info on this and other cartridges.

I’d always wondered about the MOA of military rifles. Got any idea what MGs like the m240 or m249 can do? How about pistols and SMGs?

MOA isn’t an absolute - it won’t extend out to infinite range of course because the ballistics usually feature a very quick drop around the weapon’s maximum practical range.

With rifles this can go pretty far - the MOA might roughly hold through 500 or 600 yards on a full caliber rifle.

I don’t know offhand what sort of MOA you could expect out of a m240 or m249. I assume you’re talking about a single shot, because the effect of a recoil impulse is different from the inherent accuracy of each bullet to hit where the gun was pointed at when it was fired. But contrary to popular belief, machine guns actually tend to be, by far, the most accurate small arms outside of very specialized rifles. Carlos Hathcock used to snipe with single shots from a .50 caliber machine gun out to 2500 yards.

And MOA is an idealized condition test - what you can expect the gun to be able to do with a perfect shooter. In the real world ergonomics play a role - a 30 pound machine gun may be inherently far more accurate than an assault rifle, but the guy holding it at the shoulder probably isn’t going to be able to take advantage of that. There’s also an issue of quality of sights and such.

That said - I don’t have any practical experience, but I would suspect the m249 can shoot slightly better than an m16 to a bit farther range, and significantly better than an m4 out to a moderately further range. The 240, using a full sized rifle round, may not be much more accurate than the others at short range but it’ll hold up better at long ranges.

With pistols, a 3" group at 25 yards is considered pretty good shooting, but it’s much harder for a shooter to get the best out of a pistol compared to out of a rifle. I don’t know what the ideal grouping is for a pistol. SMGs would vary widely - they range from precision instruments to a few pieces of sheet metal stamped together. A quality SMG like an mp5 could generally be considered to outshoot pistols because of the longer barrel length, extended sight base, and more shooter friendly ergonomics.

So… yeah, sorry, no hard numbers for you, just a general idea.

I wouldn’t have expected this. MGs tend to be open bolt designs with loosely fitting parts. If it’s possible to change the barrel of an MG with the press of a button, the barrel can’t be tightly fitted which means inconsistency between shots which means inaccuracy. What makes them accurate?

I can see why a sniper might have used a .50 cal MG to snipe in Vetnam; back then, if you wanted a very long range weapon capable of hitting at 1.5 miles, you pretty much had to use a .50 cal MG since .50 cal rifles didn’t exist (or weren’t easily available. Also, elephant guns might have been unsuited to long range accuracy).

Sorry about the double post, my previous post contains false info.
I meant that it’s possible to change the barrel of an MG with the press of a button and a quarter turn of the barrel (if the bolt is already to the rear). All other steps aren’t mechanically required and only done for safety’s sake.

You’re right that being open bolt is a factor in reducing practical accuracy, and I forgot that both FN designs use it. It tends to be less of a factor than in open bolt SMGs where a significant fraction of the weapon’s weight is shifting before the round fires. The open bolt MGs tend to be better balanced, heavier, and often supported, which reduces the problems caused by an open bolt, but that is a factor.

I also intuitively thought the changable barrel assembly would degrade accuracy, but I’ve read numberous reports of soldiers declaring their MGs the platoon’s most accurate weapons - and this even predates the assault rifle era, with the mg42 often getting credit as being incredibly accurate than 98Ks. My intuitive guess is that the barrels attachments are designed for consistency and the bullet itself sits in the back of the barrel during firing, which means it doesn’t have to cross the chamber-(trunion)-barrel joint. Even if it were the case that the aim point changed slightly between barrels, it would still be consistent from round to round within the same barrel.

The accuracy advantage they get tends to come from longer barrels, better manufacturing tolerances, and better supporting devices. I may be wrong in the specific case of very light open bolt MG designs like the 240 and 249, but my general reading has lead me to believe that those weapons typically outperform their contemporary infantry rifles.

BTW, why did the Army change the numbering of its weapons? Why did we go from an M-16 to an M-4, instead of to an M-17 or some later number in sequence?

Each category of weapons has an M series, and in this case, it’s a mark 16 rifle vs a mark 4 carbine. But the whole system is sort of arbitrary anyway, so don’t try to make too much sense out of it.

I never did, it just kicked too much. You could shoot the M-16 on automatic with some accuracy (at short range anyway).

When I got to Vietnam (Marines, 1969) of course I was issued a M-16. I never had any problems with it jamming. I fired as many as 1,000 rounds in an hour or so and it worked just fine. Toward the end I had to slow down as every shot sent a jolt of pain through my ears, but it’s hard to see where that is the rifle’s fault.

In the early days of the M-16 in Vietnam there were a lot of problems with it. Shell casings would split, the ejector would tear through the lip it was supposed to catch on, the cleaning requirements were pretty high.

David H. Hackworth mentions using a 50 caliber as a sniper weapon in Korea in his book “About Face”.

'http://books.google.com/books?id=H2ofpCdu4boC&printsec=frontcover&dq=about+face&hl=en&ei=ITkUTZmgOcX7lwei_LTUDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22sniper%20unit%22&f=false

Yep, arbitrary though the Model numbers do get higher then tend to fall back. The modifications get higher with newer developments until the base model number changes (A1, A2, Mod 1, Mod 3, etc…). The different services have different systems.

In the US military, the service that developes/manages the weapon system does the model numbering. Army typically uses the “MXXX” system. You get things like M16; M16A1, then the next proposed development might be the M16A1E1 for the follow-on or improved weapon (final adoption of the change could be the M16A2 or you could see additional options like M16A1E3). The initial developement model of a “new” weapon would be the XM18 before adoption.

The Navy/Marine system uses the MkXX ModX; Mk49 Mod 1 (mark 49 mod 1). Might be shown as Mk49-1 or MK49 MOD7.

The Air Force uses things like CNU-28/A, CBU, KMU etc… Example is a “Mother of all Bombs” MOAB is a guided bomb which delivers the 18,700 lb BLU-120/B warhead bomb with KMU-593/B GPS/INS. And NEVER tell the AF item managers that the letters stand for things like CBU=cluster bomb unit. They get testy and deny all.
An assembled bomb will have a warhead BLU with fuze(s) FMU and fin assembly or guidance kit (laser, GPS, MW radar, inertial, IR, TV) in combination with a moveable fin assembly. The container may have a CNU designation. If the bomb has separate scaterable munitions; they’ll have there own model designations.

If one services adopts an item from another service, the model designation follows along. The Navy/Marines/AF use M16 series rifles for example. The Army/AF use various Navy developed signals with Mark numbers. There are some joint ammo items with designators like AN-M59 dye markers (AN=Army Navy).

For large end items like aircraft and vehicles, there may be some differences. There will be project designators and other control systems.

One of my graduate advisors, an Engineering professor, was one of the folks who worked on the initial design and testing of the M-16. He told me some things about it once in his office over coffee. Mind you, this is entirely hearsay but I had no reason to ever doubt him, and I knew him for nearly a decade.

  • Reputedly an early design of the…well shit, I don’t know what it’s called - you know how you pull back on the rear of the receiver to chamber a round? I guess the original design had a standard handle on the right-hand side to move the bolt, and he said the reason they switched to the rear-pull was that the first time they tested it a “big old beefy guy” grabbed it, tried to work the action, and the bolt twisted slightly dug into the receiver and never moved again. This kept happening so they changed the design.

  • The receivers were such poor quality at first that people test-firing them wore this sort of armor that looked like chain mail under a quilted pad, and a motorcycle helmet with a visor, as the receivers were “exploding” under fire, sending shrapnel back into the face/body of the tester.

  • The first versions were so poorly made that if you dropped one on the ground from shoulder height, there was a good chance the receiver would a) crack, b) bend, or c) break into several pieces.

  • Under full-auto conditions, the first-design barrels were so thin and so poorly made that they would droop slightly (measured in thousandth’s of an inch, but enough to throw off accuracy). He said he saw one barrel that after extensive full-auto firing would no longer fire a bullet out of the barrel (this caused a serious injury).

But I suppose many weapons have similar growing pains. The Engineers on his team (according to my professor) looked on the M-16 with disgust, although his solution (“bring back the M1 Garand and the M1 carbine!”) was probably less realistic. In fact, even in the early 1990’s he was still pushing for the M1 Garand to return as the weapon of choice. Holy crap.

The rod you pull on to chamber a round is called the charging handle, and the button you hit to force the bolt closed is called the forward assist. The AR-15/M16 family of rifles aren’t the only ones to use these features but they’re not common. The original AR-10 (another Eugene Stoner design upon which the AR-15 was based) had a more conventional bolt lever awkwardly located inside the carrying handle/scope mount, and no forward assist which could be problematic when the receiver became fouled.

The stories your advisor told you may be apocryphal but don’t seem terribly outlandish; significant effort was made to reduce weight in the rifle by making the bolt smaller, the barrel thinner and the receiver from aluminum, then a novel material for battle rifles. As anyone who has worked with aluminum can tell you, a bad temper can seriously reduce the strength or make the material prone to fracture. A recent licensed production run of M4 carbines by Smith & Wesson had temper and thermal expansion interference problems, so it’s not by any means unrealistic for the development rifles to have been problem-prone.

Stranger

I maintain that the M16 is garbage. Making that assertion is pretty much the fastest way to get hatemail on the internet, though :slight_smile:

Current issue A4/M4s benefit from a lot of improvements over the original M16s, but they are still woefully inadequate for a rifle I’m supposed to trust my life to. I submit the following for your consideration.

A lot of people give flack to the Army Ordinance Board for changing the powder composition of the rounds back then, but I have to say that they made the best choice available to them. The advanced IMR powder that the M16 was designed to use couldn’t be produced in enough quantity to supply the war effort, even if every batch worked as advertised. The problem was that every other batch failed quality control and had to be discarded. So the AOB went with the same gunpowder that they had been using for decades, which was in ready supply, easy to produce, and, let us not forget, cheaper. That was the root cause of the notorious jams of early production M16s. IMR powder burned more quickly, resulting in a steady increase of pressure early in the firing cycle, with the pressure already reducing as the bullet passed the gas-port. Ball-and-Stick powder built pressure later in the firing cycle, but much more dramatically (if you compare the two on a chart, the IMR pressure resembles a bell curve where the older powder more closely resembled a spike). The problem was that the peak pressure coincided with the point at which the bullet was in the vicinity of the gas port. The hot gasses would travel down the gas tube and cycle the weapon while the cartridge was still obturated, causing the extractor to either skip over the lip, or pull through it. The resulting jam required the use of your cleaning kit to clear. I don’t know that they ever really fixed this timing issue. They chromed to bore to reduce drag between the cartridge and the chamber, which allowed the action to extract the cartridge even while it was obturated, and they added a heavier buffer group to slow down the action. The upshot of this is that modern rifles can accept a wider variety of powders from a number of different manufacturers (more applicable to the civilian shooter than the military one).

There are a lot of myths regarding the M16, none more enduring than the myth of the tumbling bullet. A small number of early production rifles were fielded with a 1/18 twist. This rate was insufficient to stabilize the small projectile, resulting in the bullet turning sideways in flight. The result is similar to the difference between a diver using good form smoothly entering a pool versus a diver that belly flops. A much larger amount of energy was transfered to the target by bullets flying sideways, leading to rave reviews from the field about the amount of damage caused by these tiny bullets (the report about a 5.56 “tearing a man’s arm off” comes to mind). Unfortunately, one of the side effects of this instabity was accuracy that would make Nikolai Kaleshnikov weap. As time went on, twist rates were tightened, untill today, modern M16s are fielded with a 1/7 twist. This provides for a very stable bullet, but, unfortunately, they travel completely through their targets, leaving only a 22 hundredths of an inch hole in their wake, unless they hit bone. There is evidence that if the bullet is traveling between 2200-2700fps when it hits a person, it may fragment, causing catastrophic damage, however this is not a design feature, merely a fluke. Alas, I am told that this only occurs a fraction of the time, and can only happen inside of approximately 125yds from an M16, or 15yds from an M4.

As for the notorious direct impingement (DI), it has its strengths, as well as weaknesses. Mainly, it has two problems that concern the user. Firstly, it causes the action to heat up more than a piston would. There are various opinions about how serious this is, but in my opinion, it’s preventable. After even a single magazine, the receiver is noticably warm. In intense firefights, it can result in the rifle overheating and breaking down sooner than a piston system might. Some accuse the users that point this out of lacking fire discipline, but that’s a concept that tends to be forgotten when you’re receiving effective small arms fire. Never mind that one of the big selling points of the M16 was that it could generate such a large volume of small caliber fire. Secondly, the carbon that pollutes the action makes it a devil to clean, and, considering that the design cannot tolerate particulate contamination of the action (addressed below), may be considered this rifle’s achilles tendon. For the logisticians consideration, that same heat-and-carbon combination increases life-cycle costs, and reduces the overall life of the weapon. On the other hand, DI does have some benefits. It reduces the number of moving parts, and reduces weight. More important than that it reduces weight, is where it reduces weight, namely, near the nose of the rifle, where it must be supported at arm’s reach. Another infrequently considered bonus to DI systems is that it does not require a firm mounting point on the barrel, meaning that rifles using this system may have their barrels free-floated, increasing accuracy. The DI system also reduces the amount of mass moving out-of-line with the bore, making the rifle easier to keep on target during rapid or auto fire.

Another point for concern is the magazine. Let us be realistic, magazines are the weak point in any auto-loading design. Though I lack familiarity with the AK series rifle, I’d wager a month’s salary that a bad magazine could cause even that leviathan to falter. When the M16 was new issue, it was originally intended for the magazines to be disposable. However, given that long-term storage of cartridges in their magazines will result in deformed feed lips and followers, as well as weak magazine springs, this proved impractical. The older system of long-term storage (stripper clips, bandoliers, and water-proof boxes) prevailed, with the addition of a speed-loader in each bandolier of ammunition. However, the design and manufacture of magazines was not changed. As a result, modern USGI magazines are notorious for spontaneous failure (from time to time belching their full load of rounds in a humorous variant of 52-card pickup). Most of the time this failure announces itself in the form of double feeds, which may sometimes be ameliorated by grasping the magazine and applying foreward pressure while firing. An attempt was made to develop a go-no-go gauge for the magazines that resulted in failure, as no gauge produced could reliably tell bad magazines from good ones. This concern, at least, has been addressed by the private sector. Users of Magpul magazines swear by them much as an earlier generation swore by the Bible.

Finally, we come to the real problem of this series of rifle. Many people who are unfamiliar with the M16 claim that its internal tolerances are too tight for a battle rifle, that these unspecified “tight tolerances” are the culprit of the M16’s notoriously bad reliability. Such claims are dismissed by people familiar with the rifle, and rightly so. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a problem. What has historically been attributed to the tolerances of the rifle are more accurately attributed to a poorly designed bolt carrier group (BCG). During counter recoiling, as the bolt attempts to strip a fresh cartridge off of the magazine, the bolt and BCG are compressed between the buffer spring and the cartridge. This compression causes the bolt to try to cam to the shooter’s left (prevented by the bolt pin inserted through the carrier group under the gas key) and the BCG to try to twist to the shooter’s right (prevented by the guides of the receiver). When the rifle is clean, this produces negligable additional resistance. The analogy I like to use is a car with glassed-over brakes. The action is slowed, but not appreciably. With the introduction particulate matter (sand, dirt, carbon, etc), it is analogous to replacing the brakes in the aforementioned automobile. The friction between these bearing surfaces increases dramatically, slowing the BCG down. Even so, I believe that the rifle would still function, were it not for the fact that there are four energy-intensive (relative to the amount of force produced by the buffer spring) actions that need to happen at the end of each cycle. Firstly, the spring loaded extractor must be forced over the lip of the freshly chambered cartridge, while simultaneously compressing the ejector spring. These two springs are fairly stiff. After these two springs are overcome, the bolt must cam into a locked position behind the barrel as the carrier group continues to slide home. Finally, the auto-seer must be reset by the carrier group coming to rest in the battery position. This combination is the reason that the rifle notoriously fails to function when dirty, falsely attributed to tight tolerances. Frankly, as constructed, looser tolerances would likely cause the rifle to fail even when clean. Efforts have been made to partially address this issue. After market rolling-cams have been introduced to replace the OEM pin, but I believe that the true solution will be to somehow prevent the bolt from trying to prematurely cam that is internal to the BCG.

That just about sums up the rifle itself. Never mind the pack of lies, deceit, back stabbing, and all around political chicanery involved in its adoption. I think I would despise these rifles even if they were good just because they will forever be a testament to corrupt politicians destroying careers and national institutions that stand between them and their goals. Each M16 should be etched with the phrase “RIP Springfield Armory” I firmly believe that the M16 has never been the better rifle in any test, only that it was a handy tool to aid McNamara (may he enjoy his time squatting on the coals) in destroying the Springfield Armory.

I think he said the ones he worked on did not have a forward assist. Maybe that was added later?

So you agree we need to go back to the tried and true M1 Garand? :wink:

Fuck yeah!

I’d trust my life to a Garand. I wouldn’t say the same for anything produced since. .30-06 and fire discipline wins wars. .223 and “thataway” doesn’t.

The first M-16s did not have a forward assist. This was added after they found that the bolt would sometimes not lock shut when the weapon was dirty (you know, that weapon that they said would never need cleaning… :rolleyes: ). Since the M-16 uses a fully enclosed bolt, without the forward assist to force the bolt closed you were pretty much screwed. The only way to make the weapon usable again was to take it apart and clean it.