Don’t read the things in the spoiler boxes if you want to avoid book spoilers.
I like Tyrion, Bran, Jaime, and Jon, and have grown to like Sansa.
I think the OP has made clear that only spoilers that have already been shown on TV are okay unboxed.
Yeah, i have a hard time believing that wasn’t entirely intentional.
If what the OP is looking for is an unambiguously heroic protagonist who owns the story arc and will triumph in the end, then maybe there is nothing for you here. That’s not what this story is about. And it’s not because Martin is sadistic and the readers are masochistic.
Fundamentally, I think what the story says to me is that there are no pure heroes and that in fantasy and in real life, it is a mistake to look for them.
The real heroes are the people at the bottom, whose story doesn’t get told, who are just trying to survive, while people at the top do what they do to feed their greed and egos.
It’s a story about human society, not only in a fantasy world, not only in a historical setting, but its a story about us today, and how our reverence for the state or our “leaders” or our soldiers or our ancestors or our history or our founding fathers or our gods merely serve to distract us from what is the real story going on around us.
I’m no Christian and I’m not in the habit of quoting scripture, but this phrase seems relevant to me in the context of Ice and Fire … “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren …” I don’t complete the sentence, because I’m not sure that the second half is relevant here. It’s about what the people with power do and how it affects “the least.”
First, though, let me say this. I don’t think that Martin is a perfect author or the greatest in the world or anything like that. I don’t think that Ice and Fire is the greatest, perfect literature ever. Both Martin and the series have problems.
Given, that, however, I think that the books are extremely well-written, and definitely above average for popular fiction. In the specific genre of fantasy—whether you consider this high fantasy or sword-and-sorcery or whatever sub-genre (maybe all of them)—I believe that the series is a standout in terms of quality.
Most of all, I think that there is some degree of genius in it. I haven’t read much about or by Martin other than this particular series, so I don’t know whether he has said anything about his motives and intent with regard to it. However, I myself think there is a really good genre-busting inspiration at the heart of it.
And it not only busts the fantasy genre, but the whole idea of human history, as well as our concepts of heroism and tradition and reverence for the past. It also works for me as a criticism of ambition and militarism, which is something that I believe plagues our modern society.
I think it works on all those levels, and I also think that good parts of it are a well-written fun story. I occasionally have gotten bored by parts of the Danaerys story and the Arya story and the Sansa story and the Bran story, but I think overall it holds up. I mean, there were parts of Tolkien that bored me too, so I think Martin holds up quite well.
I know. If I were being ungenerous, I would suspect spite.
Hey DrDeth didn’t we already have a thread where everybody told you to stop posting book spoilers in threads that are clearly just about the show?
I’ve read the books too. I like the books. I recommend the books to people who like the show. But why can’t you let people who haven’t read the books enjoy the show? Frankly at this point it seems like you’re spoiling the show only people intentionally.
To answer the OP, one of the things I like best about Game of Thrones is that it plays with the audience’s preconceived notion of storytelling, particularity with regards to protagonist vs antagonist. Who am I rooting for? Why Stannis of course. I’ll have to use my google-fu to dig up my giant bullet point list of why Stannis is the mannis that I posted here in one of the previous Game of Thrones threads.
I have a few comments.
(1) There very clearly and deliberately is NOT just a single protagonist. Who’s the main character of GoT post-season-1? There isn’t one. People have argued that the main three protagonists are John Snow, Dany and Tyrion; and I think that’s a reasonable claim, but that’s at the very minimum three protagonists. And all three of those are generally on the good/decent/benevolent side
(2) There are also a lot more “good” characters than it sometimes feels. In addition to the three mentioned above, I think that Brienne, Davos, Sam and Sansa (among relatively prominent charadcters) have done nothing but good.
(3) While there are a few cartoonishly evil characters (Joffrey obviously, and also Ramsey Bolton and The Mountain) and a few who while not sadistic are fairly generic power-hungry-schemers of various sorts (Tywin, Littlefinger, Roose Bolton, arguably Cersei), there are also (and I think some would argue this is the series’ greatest strength) quite a few who are genuinely ambiguous and interesting. When Dany finds a city full of slaves, there’s no suspense, we know she’s going to free them. It might be fun to watch because, hey, dragons, but there’s not much ambiguity there. But what happens when Jaime Lannister has to make the choice to try to save Brienne? What will he do? What do we want him to do? That’s where the show is at its best. Other characters I’d lump into that category include Varys, Mance Rayder, Stannis, Melisandre, The Hound, Pycelle, Ygritte and Ser Jorah.
And then there’s Arya. She started out good and fun. Then a bunch of shit happened to her. Now she has stabbed a guy basically in cold blood. But she was strongly provoked. What will she become? She doesn’t fit into any simple categorization, and that makes it fascinating.
I agree with most of the rest of your post, but I don’t think the books (or show) are trying to say that there are no heroes among the aristocracy. Ned Stark was a hero. Brienne is a hero(ine) and is a member of the ruling class. I don’t think the book is saying “you think Ned or Brienne are pure heroes? Nope, turns out each one is just as self-interested and greedy as Cersei or Littlefinger, they’re all scumbags, workers of the world unite”. I’d say instead it’s saying something like:
-Just because someone seems like a hero, or should be a hero, doesn’t mean they are a hero (remember what Sansa initially thought of Joffrey)
-And if they are a hero, that doesn’t mean that their heroicness will cause them to be triumphant. Arguably the kingdom as a whole, including the little people, are better off with a NON-hero in charge.
It was entirely intentional. The OP flat out OKed SPOILERS in his thread title. Nor did he ask us to restrict it to the TV show. True he said he’d only watched the TV show, but he’s watched all the show and he was asking us who he should root for.
Look, we have discussions all the time about LotR, with casual mentions that Sauron was defeated and Gandalf came back from the dead. Still, the Hobbit films are only in 2 out of three, so technically those are spoilers. Does anyone scream spoiler and Junior Mod report posts?
Book 3 of GRRM series has been out for 14 fucking years now. You can buy a copy on Amazon for .41 cents.
The OP said SPOILERS. His OP did not request limiting talk to the TV show and in fact appears the opposite as he’s asking us who he should be rooting for.
Nor have I ever posted a spoiler in any thread where it was requested no spoilers. Note also Post 16 has some spoilers and info from the books.
I can. I have never posted a spoiler in a spoiler-free thread. This thread specifically said **SPOILERS **in the Title, nor did the OP ask us in the OP to limit talk to the TV show only.
Yes, you read SPOILERS in the OP and immediately took your chance to ruin the show/book for as many people as possible. Congratulations.
I’m very sensitive to spoilers, as I once went out of my way to avoid them only to read one in a completely unrelated place. Pissed me off. But in DrDeth’s defence, I can understand how he came to his conclusion. The title does say ‘spoilers’. The OP asks whom to root for. This implies a request for knowledge that has not been revealed in the TV series. How can there be spoilers, if the TV shows have already been watched by the OP? The OP seems like a specific request for information on upcoming events.
Another, safer, interpretation would be that ‘spoilers’ in the title was a warning to people who have not seen the entire TV series.
Had I not read the fourth book, I would not have liked to have read the spoiling post if I were expecting to read spoilers for people who haven’t seen the series.
I see what you did there.
Because LOTR has been out for 60 years, not 14? Because LOTR is not particularly noted for it’s shocking and unexpected plot points? Because Game of Thrones has a large fanbase that are very vocal about not wanting to know what happens in the books until the series has concluded and LOTR did not?
But you already know all this because we already had a thread about this and not a single poster agreed with you. So please utilize the tiniest amount of common sense and courtesy before posting gigantic spoilers in threads about Game of Thrones on this message board. It’s not difficult.
I don’t think it’s the biggest deal in the world if someone gets a tv show or movie or novel spoiled for them. But I don’t see why you actively want to spoil a creative work you seem very fond of for people who aren’t as caught up as you are.
From anyone else i would have defaulted to the kinder interpretation but DrDeth has been fighting for his right to ruin everyone’s enjoyment for years now, he is going to use any OP without an iron clad spoiler policy to ruin the show for as many people as possible.
Exactly. The title says SPOILERS. The first post by the OP does not request we stick to TV only. And, his post (as Johnny LA sez)*implies a request for knowledge that has not been revealed in the TV series. *
Nevertheless.
Nonsense. At no time have I ever tried to spoil the TV series in any spoiler-free thread. Yes, I have questioned why we have to make the threads about this TV show (and only this TV show) free of discussion of the source material- but only up to that point. If the TV show has shown us the Red Wedding, I still do not see any point in not discussing minor variations between the book and the TV show* on something that has already occurred. *
That’s not a spoiler. Nor have I ever posted any such spoilers- except here in this thread where the very fucking Title says SPOILERS.
Not to mention now you you guys are derailing the nice OP’s thread, dredging up past imagined slights.
You would think then, you wouldn’t click on a thread where it sez SPOILERS in the title, then, eh?
I think what Arya did was completely justified. She just saw her brother’s headless corpse being paraded around with a wolf’s head on top, and she heard that guy boasting that he was the one who put the wolf’s head on top of the body, and laughing about it. I think any sane human would have wanted to stab him and kill him. No fault whatsoever on Arya’s part.
Below is a sundry list of what I think of some of the characters mentioned by several folks above:
[ul]
[li]Jon Snow: Good but boring, and brooding all the time[/li][li]Davos: An honorable man, but doesn’t seem to have too much power (at least so far)[/li][li]Pycelle: I have no idea what his deal or motivations are (People mentioned Varys and Baelish as being inscrutable, but I think it’s clear what their motivations are)[/li][li]Sansa: She deserves what she gets, for lying about what she saw in that first incident with Arya and Joffrey (which resulted in the butcher boy being killed)[/li][li]Daenerys: Seems like a megalomaniac, plus ruthless, so I don’t consider her one of the good guys.[/li][li]Tywin: I admire him. He is strong, but seems principled and not a psychopath who wants to see people die or suffer. However, he is indeed quite ruthless and is a dick towards Tyrion, so he is not that sympathetic. But compared to all the “bad guys” I like him the most.[/li][/ul]
As I said, the safer interpretation is that the spoiler warning is for people who have not seen the TV show; not for people who have not read the books.
That is, while the OP seems to want to know whom to root for, he is warning people that the thread may contain spoilers from the TV show.