Is blackface really offensive?

Great Debates
41

I would criticize the costume, yes. Because I can’t imagine that white make-up wouldn’t detract from the whole look she was going for.

I’m a light-skinned black gal, but I would look straight-up bizarre if I whitened my skin. I wouldn’t look like a Caucasian. With my nose and cheekbones, I’d clearly look like a black person with white make-up. IMHO, I’d look strange and “off”. When I see a white person putting on brown make-up, I don’t see someone who resembles a black person. I see a white person with brown make-up. It’s a total distraction for me. It takes me “out” of whatever fantasy they are trying to conjure up.

Personally, I’d be bothered if my imaginary child thought he or she couldn’t be Harry Potter or Wonderwoman or Superman without changing their skin color. I would be quite troubled by that. Being black doesn’t bar someone from being a wizard or a super hero. And I would be bothered that my imaginary child wouldn’t be unable to understand what “essence” or “representation” means.

My fourth grade class put on a stage play about Abigal Adams. I was one of the “town folk” or something generic like that. Didn’t get a single line. But I still got to be on stage in my big “old fashioned” dress, pretending to be a revolutionary American, brown skin and all. If I had told my mother that I couldn’t get into character without “becoming” white, she would have had a fit. And this is the most afro-centric person I know.

I think a mask like that would be stupid too. But then again, I’m not into costumes or cosplay. I don’t particularly want to see other people dressed up either…though I admire people who have fun in off-the-wall, creative ways. A person who puts on a mask doesn’t strike me as someone who is taking their look too seriously or expecting any kind of praise, so I wouldn’t think to judge them. They strike me as being different from the guy who goes to the trouble of dabbing brown make-up all over his face and hands and arms. That guy’s begging for someone to look at and evaluate him. But neither really troubles me.

42

Aside from the historical context of black-/brown-/yellow-face, there’s another way I can see in which wearing skin-toned makeup could be offensive, or at very least, somewhat… uncomfortable.

In many, many aspects of American culture, and even global culture, “white guy” is treated as the default. Women and people of other races tend to be shown only when their race or sex is relevant. Fortunately, this is changing, but it’s still true to a great degree. For instance, if you see a black woman in an ad, it typically means that this is a commercial specifically geared toward black women (or at least, “women of color”). Products that are for “everyone” are still largely advertised with white guys. And the same is true of movie and TV roles and other entertainment. It’s still very uncommon to see anyone other than a white person cast in a role where race is unspecified or irrelevant. But of course, there are also cases where race is relevant, and it’s important that the character is white. And so we have this weird situation where “white” can mean *either *“white” or “[insert race here]”.

But it can be easy to conflate the two. Instead of there being some specifically-white characters and some whose race is irrelevant (who just happen to be white), it can seem to some people as though race is always relevant. That if a character was meant to be some other race, they would be, so obviously, if they’re white, they’re supposed to be white for some reason, even if that reason is not particularly clear. And so, when the cosplayer monstro linked to is told that she’s the wrong color for those costumes, she’s really being told that a character she interpreted as “white-by-default”, free for everyone to embody, is actually just “white”, and therefore, excluded to her. Similarly, when a white person dresses up like a character whose race is not particularly relevant, a character who could just as easily be white or Asian or anything at all, and makes a point of including the character’s race in their portrayal, it implies that the person sees the character’s race as relevant. And that can be a reminder to people of the race being portrayed that they are not seen as “everyone”, but only ever as an exception to the rule.

43

And it probably would but that is not really answering the question. You are disagreeing with the hypothetical decision she made that it looks better that way but I am asking about if you think that it would be her artistic decision to make or if her doing so would be somehow offensive. And if so in what way? I cannot imagine it being offensive in the same way someone White wearing blackface would be even if the intent was exactly the same.

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said … in my kid’s High School production of Les Miz (they did an amazing job) Jean Valjean was played by a young Black man with no difficulty whatsoever. The kid was amazing. What a voice! (He’s going places.) But I am interested in fleshing out the position. Color blind casting is a completely different debate but I see Heart of Dorkness’s comment very pertinent there - if the play involves some plot or tension regarding race or ethnicity then the actors should be of the group the character is. To have a White play the lead in The Color Purple or Porgy and Bess, or a Black play the mother of the White girl in Guess Who’s Coming for Dinner would be dumb. But if the plot does not involve a tension of race or ethnicity anybody can pull it off with little suspension of disbelief required.

44

I’d say for the vast majority of costumes, a skin color change isn’t necessary. You can’t do Hulk without green skin or Smurfette without blue but you can do Flavor Flav without blackface. A tracksuit, baseball cap to one side and a clock necklace. Even the Trayvon Martin guy didn’t need blackface. All those photos of white people Trayvonning: skittles and ice tea.

Now there are a few costumes that people of one race will find more difficult to pull off than a person of the same race as the costume/character. If I dyed my hair blonde and put on a hoodie, no one would see me as Eminem. They’d see me as Sisqo. I’d argue that Eminem would not be a good choice of a costume for me. But Vanilla Ice, despite his name, is his hair and if they make Vanilla Ice wigs somewhere, I’m golden.

45

Are you asking me if I think that she’d offend people if she went “whiteface”? I wouldn’t think so. But then again I wouldn’t have guessed that people would have a problem with her current style. So I have no idea what kind of stir she would generate by whitening up. Would I be offended? No. Would I consider it offensive? No, but I say this only because I wouldn’t be offended. Would I consider it worthy of a few eye rolls? Unless she was being ironic or “meta” with it, yeah, I would.

I’m not 100% sure I understand your question.

46

enomaj, my favorites are Prince and Left Eye. Especially Left Eye.

47

The question was based on the fact that it is inverse of the op: “Is black/brownface inherently offensive if the costume itself isn’t a rude racial caricature?”

You’ve not quite been saying it is offensive but the consensus seems to be that it is. I think it has enough potential to be offensive, given the historic context of blackface, that it should be assumed so and avoided no matter what the intent or the artisitc judgment of the person creating the costume. And to clarify, your response to that op - is it inherently offensive, not just stupid and unneeded?

Whiteface does not have to function within the same context albeit it does potentially evoke some other issues or at least I would speculate it would. To you it does not. That was my answer.

48

Who are you surveying? The folks here? I wouldn’t say we’ve come to a consensus on anything. We don’t even know what “flak” the OP’s friend encountered. Since I have noticed that Dopers have a tendency to exaggerate whenever they want to paint their opponents as unreasonable shrill-harpies, I don’t even know how seriously we should take the OP. If it turned out the only “flak” the OP’s friend experienced was a couple of eye-rolls and sighs of disapproval, would the “consensus” still be the same, in your opinion?

In general, I don’t think most people care about this stuff one way or the other. The people who do likely don’t care very strongly and probably feel as I do…just mildly irritated or mildly “meh”. And in the small subset of people who care very strongly, you’re going to find people who are truly offended. But does this small minority of a minority constitute a critical enough mass to conclude something is “offensive”? If there are simply more negative emotions/opinions about something than positive, is this sufficient to label something as “offensive”? If most black Americans were to say they don’t really like when a white person smears brown make-up on their face in a sloppy imitation of a black person, would you conclude that they are offended? Or would you conclude that they just don’t like seeing a white person doing a sloppy imitation of a black person?

Sometimes I think throwing “offended/offensive” exaggerates the polarization of a subject. It’s really just a matter of personal opinion and taste, IMHO. Not morality or “good” versus “bad”.

I don’t think it should be avoided no matter what. I don’t think that for any artistic ploy or device. There’s a place for everything, even “offensiveness.”

If you go back, you’ll notice my emphasis on “signatures” and “essence”. Spock’s pointy ears, not his skin, are his signatures. But for some characters, skin color is relevant to who they are. Case in point: Michael Jackson. If I was going to design a clever MJ costume, I would paint half my face dark brown and the other half Dayglo white. The side of my body with the “brown” face would be dressed in “half” bell-bottomed jeans and a half sequined shirt with a butterfly half-collar. The “white” half would be shirtless, like MJ was in that “You Are Not Alone” video with Lisa Marie Presley. Afro on one side. Straight silky long hair on the other. I would go around singing “Black or White” while in that get-up.

Would someone be critical of my impersonation of MJ? Of course? Would their butthurt be enough to keep me from doing it? No. I think even MJ would admit that his skin made him a very unique person. I would say so to anyone who challenged me.

They may think I’m both “offensive” and “stupid”, and they are perfectly free to think those things. Oh well, I wouldn’t be doing it for them. I would be doing it for the people who like my type of humor. As long as enough people laugh along with me, I would feel like I did a good job. That’s the mentality of any artist, right? You win some. You lose some. You take chances anytime you perform, which is what one does when they put on a costume.

49

Why are people referring to Sailor Moon characters as white? They’re not…

Which rather proves the point of “white as default”.

50

I’m not surveying anyone, I’m readng this thread which merely asked that question and that was my impression of how the answers went with very few taking a dissenting POV. Could have been wrong. On reread it seems that some, like you, never actually responded to the actual question of the op, “Is black/brownface inherently offensive if the costume itself isn’t a rude racial caricature?”, ignoring that and discussing that it was not a necessary aspect.

Perhaps I read that because my own preconception is that blackface has such historic baggage that it would likely offend enough people that it is something that is probably best avoided no matter that such was not the intent. Even if Black was a “signature” aspect of the character.

And I do think that whiteface has a different sort of baggage which might raise issues as well but different sorts of issues.

51

Sorry, this character, Venus Sailor Moon, the once referenced in the blog post, is White. Very White.

52

Ah fair enough, I was thinking of the title character. The one loads of white people cosplay without changing their skin colour.

53

The characters are almost all east Asian - Japanese, to be precise. What purpose would be served by white people changing their skin color from white to white?

54

What am I supposed to do if my black friend and I are supposed to go to a Quinten Tarantino theme party and he wants to go as Vincent (Travolta) from Pulp Fiction? Am I allowed to go as Jules (Jackson)?

55

Brilliant analogy! I was coming into say something similar but less eloquent.
Just one question, how would you make one side of your nose skinny and decomposing??

tsfr

56

Gut feeling? I actually think under those circumstances, you going as Jules and your friend going as Vince would be rather funny and I can’t see that it would be offensive. Outside of my absurdist sense of humour I can’t really articulate why but I suspect if both of you used make-up it would be perfectly fine.
Perhaps something to do with your friend being obviously complicit? I don’t know.

57

Isn’t “offensive” one of those things that really requires an object? Things aren’t objectively offensive. They’re offensive if they offend somebody. If you were to, say, do an old school minstrel show at the Image Awards, the audience there would likely consider it offensive. But if you did it at, I dunno, the National Ku Klux Klan Klavern, it would probably be a big hit.

58

In general, (non-abstract) costumes are considered better as they look more like the intended subject*. Thus painting your face is not gratuitous, but a way to make your costume better.

And, anyways, by your logic, putting blackface on would be the same as darkening your skin. But, in actuality, trying to be accurate is less offensive than picking an extreme exaggeration of the differences.

The only question is who will be offended, and whether you should care about their offense.

*Someone who got plastic surgery or whatever would be considered strange, sure, but they still would be regarded as having the better costume if they actually looked more like the intended subject.

59

You overstate the case. Sure, the wide majority can’t make the decision, but the majority of those in a position to be offended sure can. When the majority of Black people do not associate brown makeup with blackface, and thus don’t find it offensive, that will be when we can argue it is no longer offensive.

Heck, if we ever get to the point that old-style racism is just a curiosity, and blackface is just regarded as silly, even by actual Black people, then blackface won’t be offensive anymore.

60

So what? They don’t have souls anyway.

But they do make good sailors! :slight_smile:

'Course, redheads are so rare that you would not find 47 of them on a ship of the Scottish Navy if there were one.