Is religion the main reason for the Israel/Palestine conflict?

[brazil84]

@OldnCrinkly

Yes indeed, there are different dialects in Jordan, Egypt, and Palestine.

Please show me evidence that there is a distinct “Palestinian” dialect which is generally spoken in Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel proper but generally not spoken in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, or Egypt.

Cites, links, and quotes please.

as opposed to ignorance of the subject. But it is true.

Then by all means, fight my ignorance. Cites, links, and quotes please.

Laying claim to some royal title is not the same as claiming to identify with a particular culture.

Sure it is, if the claim itself is the only evidence that the culture in question is in fact identifiable.

And by the way, why is it that there was no serious push for a “Palestinian State” between 1948 and 1967? Surely that was an opportune time for such a project given that there was no Jewish control over the West Bank and Gaza. The “Palestinians” could have set up their own government, currency, and immigration controls. They could have offered citizenship to “Palestinians” living in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria just like Israel offered citizenship to Jews.

Why didn’t they seize on the opportunity to achieve the self-determination they claim to want?

[OldnCrinkly]

Well Brazil, let me just say again that I claim zero expertise on issues relating to Israel/Palestine. However, I can tell you this. My husband is a native Arabic speaker. He has some friends who also are native Arabic speakers from other countries. They do sound different. If I hear a person I do not know speaking Arabic, I will have a good chance of guessing where that person is from. I myself do not speak Arabic, outside of maybe a very few polite phrases like please, thank you, and go to hell.

I have no dog in this fight, I am just stating the fact that the different dialects do sound different. If you were familiar enough with the sound of one dialect, you also would be able to hear a difference. I feel like I’m arguing with a colorblind person over whether or not there is really a difference between green and blue.

What do you want for a cite? Go read a newspaper written by a Jordanian, read another article on the same subject written by a Syrian. It may be difficult if you don’t speak or read Arabic. That is to say, you may not be able to discern the difference, but it does not mean there is no difference.

[Qin_Shi_Huangdi]

BTW what are the positions of Arab Christians on the Israel-Palestinian conflict (along with those with other Muslim countries in the ME)? Because Israel did support the Lebanese Christians in their civil war.

[OldnCrinkly]

@brazil84

Sure it is, if the claim itself is the only evidence that the culture in question is in fact identifiable.
I would say that at present, there is definitely a discrete “Palestinian Identity”. It would be comprised of people whose lives are largely controlled by Israel. Whether there was a differnce before or not, there is sure a difference now, no?
**And by the way, why is it that there was no serious push for a “Palestinian State” between 1948 and 1967? Surely that was an opportune time for such a project given that there was no Jewish control over the West Bank and Gaza. The “Palestinians” could have set up their own government, currency, and immigration controls. They could have offered citizenship to “Palestinians” living in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria just like Israel offered citizenship to Jews.

Why didn’t they seize on the opportunity to achieve the self-determination they claim to want?**

I don’t know why you think 19 years of not establishing a sovreign state is such a big deal. If it has been free open land to settle and establish such, seems like the Jewish people took some 2000 years to do it. Thats a whole lot longer, no? I only add this because you seem to ask me directly, but again, I’m no expert, and I have no dog on the fight. But since you asked, thats my thoughts on your questions.

[FinnAgain]

For fuck’s sake… of course “Palestinian” is a created ethnicity which was formed around the turn of the 20th century. So is “Israeli.” So what?

[brazil84]

@OldnCrinkly

Well Brazil, let me just say again that I claim zero expertise on issues relating to Israel/Palestine.

Then why do you insist without any evidence that there is a distinct “Palestinian” dialect of Arabic?

They do sound different.

I am happy to concede that there are different flavors and dialects of Arabic. But that’s not the same thing as your unsupported claim which is that there is a distinct “Palestinian” Arabic.

I feel like I’m arguing with a colorblind person over whether or not there is really a difference between green and blue.

Probably that’s because you refuse to understand what we are arguing about.

Claiming that there are different versions of Arabic is not the same as claiming that there is a distinct “Palestinian” version. For reasons best known to yourself, you refuse to grasp this distinction.

What do you want for a cite? Go read a newspaper written by a Jordanian, read another article on the same subject written by a Syrian.

Assuming that there is a difference, it would not establish your position in the slightest. But in any event, I’m not your research associate. It’s not my responsibility to go looking for evidence to support your claims.

Again, I absolutely concede that there are different dialects of Arabic.

[brazil84]

@OldnCrinkly

I don’t know why you think 19 years of not establishing a sovreign state is such a big deal.

19 years of not even seriously attempting to establish a sovereign state. And hundreds of years before that.

Do you understand that there is a distinction between attempting to do something and actually accomplishing it?

Besides which, what exactly was stopping them?

I only add this because you seem to ask me directly, but again, I’m no expert,

If your knowledge is so limited, then why do you seem to be so confident that my claim is inaccurate? And why is it that you cannot provide a shred of evidence to support your own claims?

[brazil84]

@FinnAgain

For fuck’s sake… of course “Palestinian” is a created ethnicity which was formed around the turn of the 20th century. So is “Israeli.”

I don’t think “Israeli” is a created ethnicity so much as a created political nationality. (Besides which, “Israeli” was not created for destructive purposes.)

So what?

Go back and read the exchange. Ralph124c was puzzled as to why the Egyptians would care so much about the conflict between Israel and the “Palestinians” This question is easier to answer when you understand that “Palestinians” are really just Arabs.

[BrainGlutton]

@brazil84

I don’t think “Israeli” is a created ethnicity so much as a created political nationality. (Besides which, “Israeli” was not created for destructive purposes.)

Neither was “Palestinian,” it was created simply because we’ve got to have some name more specific than “Arab” for these people. Or, rather, it survives for that reason. The story of its origin is a bit more complex – but not much:

Syria Palestina continued to be used by historians and geographers and others to refer to the area between the Mediterranean sea and the Jordan river, as in the writings of Philo, Josephus and Pliny the Elder. After the Romans adopted the term as the official administrative name for the region in the 2nd century CE, “Palestine” as a stand alone term came into widespread use, printed on coins, in inscriptions and even in rabbinic texts.[37] The Arabic word Filastin has been used to refer to the region since the time of the earliest medieval Arab geographers. It appears to have been used as an Arabic adjectival noun in the region since as early as the 7th century CE.[38] The Arabic language newspaper Filasteen (est. 1911), published in Jaffa by Issa and Yusef al-Issa, addressed its readers as “Palestinians”.[39]

During the British Mandate of Palestine, the term “Palestinian” was used to refer to all people residing there, regardless of religion or ethnicity, and those granted citizenship by the Mandatory authorities were granted “Palestinian citizenship”.[40] Other examples include the use of the term Palestine Regiment to refer to the Jewish Infantry Brigade Group of the British Army during World War II, and the term “Palestinian Talmud”, which is an alternative name of the Jerusalem Talmud, used mainly in academic sources.

Following the 1948 establishment of the State of Israel, the use and application of the terms “Palestine” and “Palestinian” by and to Palestinian Jews largely dropped from use. For example, the English-language newspaper The Palestine Post, founded by Jews in 1932, changed its name in 1950 to The Jerusalem Post. Jews in Israel and the West Bank today generally identify as Israelis. Arab citizens of Israel identify themselves as Israeli and/or Palestinian and/or Arab.[41]

The Palestinian National Charter, as amended by the PLO’s Palestine National Council in July 1968, defined “Palestinians” as “those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father – whether in Palestine or outside it – is also a Palestinian.”[42] Note that “Arab nationals” is not religious-specific, and it implicitly includes not only the Arabic-speaking Muslims of Palestine, but also the Arabic-speaking Christians of Palestine and other religious communities of Palestine who were at that time Arabic-speakers, such as the Samaritans and Druze. Thus, the Jews of Palestine were/are also included, although limited only to “the [Arabic-speaking] Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the [pre-state] Zionist invasion.” The Charter also states that “Palestine with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.”[42][43]

The history of a distinct Palestinian national identity is a disputed issue amongst scholars with some arguing that it can be traced as far back as the 1834 Arab revolt in Palestine while others argue that it didn’t emerge until after the Mandate Palestine period.[22] According to legal historian Assaf Likhovski, the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the twentieth century.[22]

[brazil84]

@BrainGlutton

it was created simply because we’ve got to have some name more specific than “Arab” for these people.

Why is that? I mean, suppose that Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt had simply absorbed the descendants of Palestinian Arabs living under their sovereignty just like Israel has absorbed all of the Jews who were chased out the Arab world and just like every other group of displaced people has been absorbed. In that case, the people now known as “Palestinians” would simply be known as Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, and so forth.

[BrainGlutton]

@brazil84

Why is that? I mean, suppose that Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt had simply absorbed the descendants of Palestinian Arabs living under their sovereignty just like Israel has absorbed all of the Jews who were chased out the Arab world and just like every other group of displaced people has been absorbed. In that case, the people now known as “Palestinians” would simply be known as Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, and so forth.

1. Well, that didn’t happen, so we still need a name for the Palestinians.

2. We would need a name, anyway, for those still living in Israel and the OTs.

3. I can’t believe you asked such a stupid question.

[brazil84]

@BrainGlutton

1. Well, that didn’t happen, so we still need a name for the Palestinians.

Sure. As I said, “Palestinians” are a recent invention for purposes of undermining Israel.

We would need a name, anyway, for those still living in Israel and the OTs.

Not really. The Arabs living in Israel are normally referred to as Israeli Arabs. The Arabs living in Gaza could simply be referred to as “Gazan Arabs”; and so on.

3. I can’t believe you asked such a stupid question.

I would guess my question seems stupid to you because you choose not to understand the reality of the situation.

[BrainGlutton]

@brazil84

Sure. As I said, “Palestinians” are a recent invention for purposes of undermining Israel.

:rolleyes: You don’t even mean the name, do you?!

[brazil84]

@BrainGlutton

:rolleyes: You don’t even mean the name, do you?!

I don’t understand your question. There is a group of Arabs which are commonly referred to as “Palestinians.” Unlike other Arabs, they are essentially barred from citizenship in Arab countries. In Lebanon, they are barred from a long list of professions and occupations.

Of course none of this was true before Israeli independence. There was no group of Arabs which were referred to as “Palestinians.” Indeed, during the Ottoman days, Arabs moved throughout different parts of the Ottoman empire. There was also substantial movement of Arabs under the British mandate.

Before 1948, if an Arab living in Ramalah had moved to Beirut or Damascus, he would not have been turned away as a “Palestinian” or forced to live in a refugee camp.

Moreover, before 1967 there was never a serious push for a “Palestinian” state. In particular, when Jordan and Egypt controlled the West Bank and Gaza, the group known as “Palestinians” did not push for an independent “Palestinian State.”

The reasonable conclusion from all of this is that “Palestinians” are a recent invention for purposes of undermining Israel.

[BrainGlutton]

@brazil84

I don’t understand your question. There is a group of Arabs which are commonly referred to as “Palestinians.” Unlike other Arabs, they are essentially barred from citizenship in Arab countries.

Unlike other “Arabs,” they are mostly descended from people who have been living in Palestine forever. Including Jews. It’s a family quarrel.

[brazil84]

@BrainGlutton

Unlike other Arabs, they are mostly descended from people who have been living in Palestine forever.

I’m skeptical of this claim . . . . do you have a cite?

And assuming it’s true, why should that bar them from citizenship in other Arab countries?

[brazil84]

And by the way, here is the kicker:

If the “Palestinians” get their “Palestinian State,” one might think that it would offer citizenship to “Palestinians” in the same way that Israel offers citizenship to Jews.

Not so:

Palestinian refugees will not become citizens of a new Palestinian state, according to Palestine’s ambassador to Lebanon.

Even if those “refugees” happen to be living on the West Bank, they will not get citizenship!

This would not only apply to refugees in countries such as Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordan or the other 132 countries where Abdullah says Palestinians reside. Abdullah said that “even Palestinian refugees who are living in [refugee camps] inside the [Palestinian] state, they are still refugees. They will not be considered citizens

cite

[Terr]

@md2000

If you want to take the palestinian side - they were there for thousands of years (say almost 2000) since the Jews were dispersed by the Romans after their second revolt.
200 years ago there were almost no Jews in Palestine, now there are millions; many came just after WWI and then WWII.

Jews were there for thousands of years (say almost 4000). 200 years ago there were almost no Arabs in Palestine, now there are millions. Many came just after WWI - when Jews started coming in and making the place worth living in.

[Terr]

@BrainGlutton

Unlike other “Arabs,” they are mostly descended from people who have been living in Palestine forever. Including Jews. It’s a family quarrel.

Of course, that’s there are so many clans among “Palestinians” with names like Al-Masri(The Egyptian), Al-Mughrabi(The Moroccan), Halabi(name that came from Aleppo,Syria), “Khamis” - from Bahrain, “al-Faruqi” - from Mosul, Iraq, “al-Araj” - from Morocco, “al Lubnani” - from Lebanon, “al-Djazair” - the Algerian, “al-Yamani” the Yemeni, “Hourani” - Houran Syria etc. etc. etc.

[Alessan]

Yeah, it’s not as well documented, but almost as many Arabs immigrated to the Mandate during British rule as Jews. Mainly for economic reasons, I think.