John Lennon vs. a homeless man

A rather cavilier statment. So if we have determined that shelter statis is not the ultimate critia of human worth (and I’m glad about that) than what is?

i think the law- which in theory, and sometimes in practice considers the scum of the earth and the creme de la creme as equally worthy of life-has it right when it just considers life as life and doesn’t presume to judge it on a sliding scale.

Who do YOU think is giving nothing to the world? might it be different than my list? I already have the stock brokers all picked out.

Realtors.

I am not claiming to know who is making a contribution and who is not, that would require fairly absolute wisdom. But being a fascist I’ll take a stab at it.
People who contribute nothing and as such are worth less…
Investors (Making money from money is living off the effort of others)
Mimes
Many politicians, but not all.
hmmm… this is not good- too much categorization. Lets just say in any field there will be people who never have and never will do anything for the betterment of mankind. They should not be mourned if they cease to burden society.
Yes, I do support euthanasia

BTW by fascist i mean if i could sieze ultimate power i would, because i think i know whats best for the people. I’d do a better job than our current leaders, uncharismaic bunch of visionless saps that they are. As such i recogize my decisions may not be right but im prepared to suffer the consequences. Hmm … this is off the topic. I’ll go now.

In the spirit of the OP (I think?)…instead of comparing the murder of a homeless man to the murder of John Lennon, we could as easily ask about the moral difference between killing Martin Luther King or Adolf Hitler at the height of their respective careers, assuming opportunity and means.

a) A general social contract principle of the anti-vigilante sort says it would be equally wrong, and very wrong, to undertake either action as an individual, rather than leaving it up to a court; whereas (depending on how you feel about capital punishment) it might be entirely right and perhaps our duty, collectively, to kill Hitler if we had opportunity and means to have arrested him and brought him to trial for his deeds.

b) The contrary prevailing principle (I’ll call it the “Dirty Harry” principle) discards the anti-vigilante position on the grounds that opportunity doesn’t always present itself and severe evil must be stopped when opportunity and means are available. Some would even say that each individual has the moral responsibility to act rather than to defer to the collectivity unless representatives of that collectivity are present and able to act. Once you’ve taken that position, you’ve set yourself up to say that you might under certain circumstances kill someone for reasons other than self-defense, and that questions of who, when, and why will involve evaluating and placing a relative value on the person. For most of us, that would not easily lead to the conclusion that killing a homeless man (or, for that matter, John Lennon) is in order, although doing in Adolf Hitler certainly might be.

c) A less prevailing, less common principle that would permit individuals to kill according to their own discrimination and claim moral righteousness in doing so is the creepy self-righteousness of the self-defined Normal, who tend to believe that they are in the historical majority and, to a lesser and threatened extend, in the current majority, but that society and culture and all that is good in the world is threatened by non-Normal people, who are easily recognized by the Normal, all of whom in their hearts know the non-Normal are wrong and evil in their entire way of being here, and that their elimination is necessary. Not everyone with such belief systems also tends towards taking individual initiative in ridding the world of non-Normal people by killing them personally–most trust to the social mechanisms of criminal justice, mental hygiene, economic, and other such systems to eliminate them from circulation, and give their little pushes to those systems and their systematic behavior–but others do, and when they do, Adolf Hitler is again the order of the day, if you catch my drift.

Ohhhhh. Why didn’t you say so? Please be a caviler as you want. You have many intriguing ideas and I wish to subscribe to your fascist newsletter.

first they came for the homeless and I said nothing since I was not homeless, but, hey, when they come for the mimes, pal, they’d better watch their backs! :wink:

not having much of a clue I looked up caviler. I found that a cavil is a carping or trivial objection while to cavile is to quibble about or detect petty flaws in. If you mean the word in this sense I must object.
However i just found a more appropriate meaning for Cavalier, Showing arrogant or offhand disregard; dismissive: a cavalier attitude toward the suffering of others. (Of course you could have been referring to my attitude as gallant and chivalrous, but i doubt it.)
This i will conceed, but is not suffering a necessity for advancement? To quote the old adage, no pain, no gain. How does survival of the fittest work if the weak survive as well as the strong? We are weeding out natural selection and all that is left is sexual selection, which proceeds so much slower. Surely with the rate we are killing off other species we are increasing their chances of evolving while we stagnate(this is much exagerated, i know- and im not going to bother with all the justifications).
AS for Ahunter, i lean toward B, but i don’t think anyone is knowledgable enough to determine who should die and who should live. Even hitler. It is possible that if he did not occur the lesson would not have been learned b4 nukes were prevalent (though they owe their invention to his little war) and the eventual world war been far more catastrophic.

As for mimes,i think it is time for a pogrom.