Last Will & Testament

Melin, DSYoung & Bricker, be glad you don’t have to practice in New York. Not only do we have the rule against perpetuities, we have the rule against suspension of the power of alienation, which is sorta similar but not quite (and makes the rule against perps look straightforward, to boot). Any grant of an estate in land has to satisfy both. (We have, however, prohibited by statute the fertile octoganarian, though I was sorry to see the old bat go.)

CowJason, (a) the rule against perpetuites does not apply to charitable trusts (but it does against charitable remainder trusts–go figure!), so Carnegie’s trust can last perpetually. (b) All I can say about how the rule against perps works is: go to law school. In your first year property course you will spend 1-2 months attempting (and most likely failing, unless you are a much better man than I) to learn just what the heck it means.

One of the lawyers in my firm, however, did win a case in the New York Court of Appeals, New York’s highest court a few years back invalidating a transaction on the basis of the rule against perpetuities. See http://wwwsecure.law.cornell.edu/ny/ctap/I96_0141.htm Don’t ask me to explain it, though.

Come on, guys, what the heck is the “fertile octogenarian” rule??? Are 80-year-old grandparents having children really a problem? Don’t leave me hanging!


–It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats.

Diceman, you really don’t want to know. It’ll make your head spin and you sick to your stomach, or at least it did when I was in law school.

Let’s just say that counting to 21 isn’t as easy in DET cases as it is at the blackjack table. <snort>

Diceman, the common law assumes that anyone who is currently alive can have a child, even if that person is a woman who is 80 or more years old. Thus, “the fertile octogenarian.” It’s one way that the Rule Against Perpetuities can trip up an estates and trusts planner.

Billdo, meant to say welcome to the board! And while I have practiced in New York (I’m still licensed there, too), and have one Court of Appeals case under my belt, I am happy to say that it had NOTHING to do with wills and trust! :wink:

-Melin

Thanks, Melin. Though I must say that simply explaining that there’s a presumption that everyone, even an 80-year old woman is fertile (though in New York the law is now that she is presumed infertile unless, somehow, she is in fact fertile) doesn’t begin to capture the trouble our fertile octogenarian can cause (particularly to the brains and digestions of law students).

CowJason wondered “how can a time table as variable as ‘not later than 21 years, plus period of gestation, after some life or lives in being at time of creation ofinterest’ possibly be used in court?” Both Melin and I, sorta ducked the question by saying it’s so damn complex that a month or more of law school is required to explain it and courts recognize that even competent lawyers are likely to screw it up.

But to just touch on the rule, a person is considered to be a “life in being” if that person is alive (or in gestation) and that person’s identity can be definitively determined at the time of the grant. If someone gives a gift during that persons’ life (let’s call the person the Grantor) to “my son Jason,” Jason is a life in being because he is alive and we know who he is. However, if the Grantor gives a gift “to my children” (without specifying individual names of children), the children would not be considered “lives in being” under the rule against perpetuities because there is the possibility that the Grantor could have another child after the date of the gift.

Now changing the facts a little bit, let’s say that the Grantor gives a gift “to my children” by will at death. Then, all of the Grantor’s children will be considered lives in being, because the late Grantor is extremely unlikely to have any more children due to his recent demise (putting aside children in gestation, who will get sorted out within 9 months or so – and no cracks about sperm banks and the like, this is centuries old English common law we are talking about).

Now let’s say Grantor is an 80-year old woman. We all know that she will no longer have any children, but under the common law she is presumed to be fertile, and her gift during her lifetime “to my children” is considered not to be one to “lives in being.” Because of this, certain gifts she might make “to my grandchildren” would be void under the rule against perpetuities because they might not vest (and don’t ask what it means to vest, it ain’t pretty) within 21 years after the death of the Grantor’s children.

Now, if the Grantor were someone who might be reasonably expected to have more children, this result might be just what we expect. However, if this poor old grandma, who knows who her children are and that she will have no more, goes to her lawyer and asks to set up a trust that will be distributed to her grandchildren who survive to their 18th birthdays, imagine her surprise that the trust might be totally void. (Note that if she did the same thing in her will, it would be perfectly fine).

Now doesn’t that clear it all up?

This is just one touch of the fun that you can have with the rule against perpetuities.

::laughing:: Billdo, it’s going to be fun having you around this board!

-Melin

CowJason asked:

You’re right, it’s not much good if what you’re looking for is a fixed term to the Trust. But, if what you’re trying to do is create a Trust that will last for a long time without infringing the Rule of Perpetuities, it actually can work.

For example, one of the standard clauses used in Commonwealth countries that have the Rule against Perpetuities is the “Queen Victoria” or “Queen Elzabeth” clause.

The drafter wants to create a long-term trust, and knows that the Rule against Perpetuities puts a limit on how long you can put property into the trust (that is, so far as anything can be known about the Rule).

So, the drafter provides that the trust is to last “for the liftimes of all the descendants of Queen Elizabeth now living, plus 21 years.” Since the number of Her Majesty’s descendants is known at the moment the trust comes into effect, you have a fixed pool of “lives in being.”

The drafter in this case isn’t trying to achieve a fixed term for the trust - he or she is trying to create a trust that will last for a long time, without infringing the Rule.

In this example, currently the youngest descendant of HM is one of Prince Andrew’s daughters, aged about 10. Given the longevity of the females in the Royal Family (think of Queen Mary and the Queen Mum), that little princess may live to be 80 or 90, plus the 21 years. So, a trust set up with a QEII clause may last for close to a century without infringing the Rule Against Perpetuities.

Clear as mud?


and the stars o’erhead were dancing heel to toe

One of my colleagues actually had to use a QEII clause, and a question came up.

You want the certainty of a fixed pool of “lives in being” - but what if the rumours about Randy Andy’s Falkland activites were true, and there were an unknown descendant of the Queen now living in the Falklands? The uncertainy could cause trouble about the end-date for the trust.

So, they used the term “all of HM’s legitimate descendants now living.”


and the stars o’erhead were dancing heel to toe

That sounds like a rule against entails. But I thought entails were a no-no throughout the US, so I guess it isn’t…


John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams

With regard to “Queen Victoria” clauses, New York’s rule against perpetuities, Estates, Powers & Trusts Law (EPTL) sec. 9-1.1 provides that “In no case shall the lives measuring the permissible period be so designated or so numerous as to make proof of their end unreasonably difficult.” Under this, it’s my guess that a
clause based on the decendants of Queen Vickie would be void, but one on Queen Lizzie might work.

The New York rule against suspension of the power of alienation, EPTL sec. 9-1.1(a), provides:

The clearest explanation that I’ve heard on what this means is that the power of alienation exists when all of the holders of interests in a piece of property would be able to actually get together in a room and sign a deed to convey a fee simple absolute and possession to a single grantee. The power is suspended when there are undetermined or not yet born holders of future interests or other similar uglyness. Under the New York rule, a grant of an interest is void if after the end of lives in being plus 21 years, there is a possibility that the power of alienation would be suspended.

The fee tail was separately abolished (EPTL sec. 6-1.2) in New York effective July 12, 1782. (And if a fertile octogenarian raised interest on this board, I’m sure that some foolish non-lawer who gets own this far in this thread without losing all sanity will wonder about the practice of enfeoffment in tail. Perhaps someone at Bucky’s Edwardian party in MPSIMS has done it recently?)

Billdo,

we don’t have a statutory provision, but I think our courts have reached the same conclusion as a matter of common law - so I think putting a Queen Vickie clause in would be risky, hence the QEII clause.


and the stars o’erhead were dancing heel to toe

Just as an aside, labradorian claimed:

We’ve prohibited that in New York, too, along with the fertle grannie.

(No, I have no damn idea why they chose the ages that they did.)

If you’re interested in other provisions of this fascinating law :::yawn:::, you can check out http://assembly.state.ny.us/cgi-bin/claws?law=38&art=36 .

I wonder if there’s any significance to the fact DSYoungEsq seems to be stuck at 666 posts? HMMM? :wink:

billdo,

if memory serves, 14 and 12 were the ages at common law when boys and girls could marry. (yes, I’m serious.)

It dates back to the days of feudalism when arranged marriages were just a surrogate for land transfers and political alliances.

Most jurisdictions have upped the age a bit, but you can still find echoes of it in the law from time to time.


and the stars o’erhead were dancing heel to toe

IIRC, Henry VII’s mother was 12 years old – certainly no more than 13 – when she, legally married, gave birth to him. This was back in the 1400s, of course.

-Melin

Hi, Melin.

You’re quite right. Lady Margaret Beaufort was born in 1443, and gave birth to Henry in 1457. Interestingly, they both died in 1509.


and the stars o’erhead were dancing heel to toe

Just checking: Is there anyone who has survived to the end of this post (and it certainly would be a long hard slog) but us lawyers?

Actually, there is at least one non-lawyer still here. Dunno why I’m interested in this stuff, but I am; sometimes I’ll read the online Supreme Court decisions at www.findlaw.com for diversion, the way some people I know read romance novels.

I read it.