Most profound quote from the Bible

I think that’s the nature of subjective reference frames. Something that is life-changing for one person might be insignificant for another. For me, it was a confluence of events that all came into focus at that moment. I actually thought at first that I had made a mistake in the translation. You can’t “am” before something else “was”. After checking and rechecking the Greek for each word, I read the sentence as a whole. Having a melancholy temperament, and therefore demanding a strict ordering of things, the juxtaposition of tenses was unsettling. I was stoned at the time, and after struggling with the sentence for a bit, I looked out the window at the beautiful mountain scenery passing by, and for a moment was sufficiently distracted to let down my intellectual guard.

And that’s when it happened. I suddenly understood everything. Practically my entire theology as I hold it now occured to me then all at once. Jesus was saying that He is eternal. It isn’t that He existed before Abraham; it’s that He *exists * before Abraham. In the Old Testament, Abraham had asked God what His name was. “When people ask me who sent me, what should I say?”, he asked. God replied, “You tell people that I AM sent you. I am. That is who I am.” And now Jesus was saying, “Before Abraham was born, I am.”

I suppose it was the sudden understanding of everything at once that took my breath away. I realized that it didn’t matter how old the universe is — from God’s eternal frame of reference, the beginning and the end are the same. For Him, the universe is at once not yet begun, ongoing, and already finished. It’s kind of like the four-spatial-dimension creature who looks at a closed box and sees the inside and outside all at the same time whereas we cannot, much like a three-spatial-dimension creature sees the inside and outside of a circle at once, whereas a two-spatial-dimension creature cannot. He sees only the outside or else the inside but not both.

I understood that God is the Objective Frame, that He is ontologically perfect, and that I, as a subjective frame, am entitled to see Him in a completely different way than someone else, who is also a subjective frame. Everything now made sense. We cannot judge each other’s morality because we do not see objectively. Your frame is not accessible to me, and mine is not accessible to you. I understood that the universe is morally irrelevant, and that the scenery I saw out the window was just like the scenery in a play. Actors interact with scenery, and I understood that my life was the acting out of moral decisions. When I looked back at the people in the van, I saw them not just as friends but as gods — people who, like me, were free moral agents. I was a character in their play, just as they were characters in mine. Without morality, they were nothing more than organisms, morally irrelevant and good for nothing other than my own entertainment. But now, how I chose to interact with them became significant.

I realized that I loved them, and I realized that I knew what love was — the distribution of moral goodness. I realized that goodness was an aesthetic, and was the aesthetic most valued by God. I understood why he created the world and breathed His spirit into man. It was so that goodness, His favored aesthetic, might be multiplied by the decisions of free moral agents. I understood what it meant to be created in His image. It didn’t mean that He had two arms and two legs, but that we were spirit. Just like Him. We were free moral agents, just like Him. Free to make choices, not with our brains, but with our hearts.

I understood the dichotomy between the intellect and the heart. I understood that the intellect was trivial since it was a part of the amoral universe, whereas the essence of a man is his spirit. I understood that love in the sense that God loves is not an emotion but a decision, specifically, a decision to bring goodness into someone’s life. I understood that the nature of goodness is to edify, and that the nature of evil is to destroy. I understood that sin is not an action, but a decision, just like love. It is the decision to obstruct goodness. It is the opposite of love. I understood that there is nothing sinful about gay sex; rather, the sin is in condemning people who are gay because condemnation obstructs goodness. It is moral murder. To condemn a man is to declare that he is cut off from God.

I knew now that the atoms were not real because what is real is whatever is eternal. Something that rots or fades away or loses energy available to do work over time is not real; it is illusory. Jesus is eternal and therefore real. These are but a few of the things that I suddenly understood in the blink of an eye. You can surely understand how terrifying and wonderful it was, and how it could be life changing. It was with this new understanding that I began to reinterpret the scriptures that I had been translating. The statement, “God is love”, for example, now meant something different to me. It did not mean that God is emotionally fond of people. Emotions come from the brain, and the brain is only atoms. It was not a metaphor. It was a description of God as morally perfect. If love is the facilitation of goodness, then if God is love, then it means that God facilitates goodness perfectly.

I understood what Jesus meant when he said that neither He nor His Father judges anyone despite that Their objective reference frame entitles Them to judge perfectly; rather, we judge ourselves by His standard. Our eternal disposition is our own moral decision. It is we who determine whether we are in heaven or hell. We simply decided whether we value goodness. If we do, then we are like God. And so I understood that an atheist with a loving heart is closer to God than a Christian with a hateful heart. And so on and so on and so on. You get the picture. Everything else followed from the understanding of that one single verse. I died and was reborn. It was therefore profound for me.

Lib has told you very well how that verse impacted him. I’ll just mention that the “before Abraham was, I am” phrase is one of the biggies that Christians believe shows that Jesus was not claiming to just be a prophet, but to have a personal identification with the actual person of God. This is what really infuriated the priests.

Others would be:

Mark 14:60-4
Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 61But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?”
62"I am," said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
63The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"

And:
Matthew 16:16-7
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

I have always held a soft spot in my heart for this, from Hebrews 13:2 -
Be not afraid to have strangers in your house, for some thereby have entertained angels unawares.

I take great joy in getting groups of people together, in introducing this person to that one, because I see a commonality which will enrich them both. I firmly believe that (as one of the Gospels which escapes my memory says) “if two or three are gathered in my name, there shall I be.” I entertain, not in hopes that an unearthly being with great weird wings will walk through the door, but because I feel that we are ourselves angels, each in our turn.

On another tangent, the Lord’s Prayer holds a line which has always posed the most difficult challenge for me: “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” If the great “I Am” forgives like I do, the whole world’s in a heap o’ trouble. And if my receiving divine forgiveness revolves on my personal ability to forgive, then I’d better get to it.

Laura

A few that come to mind:

Matthew 16:26: For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Makes me think that there is much more to life than just the here and now, material things, as well as the importance of the soul.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.
No one person is any better than the next

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Not only is he able to, but if we ask, he does.

Romans 8:26

“In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.”

Matthew 5:5:

IOW, while you and I, being big manly men, are off fighting and destroying everything (including ourselves and anyone else we see), the meek are off hiding, waiting it out, being silent, etc.

When all destruction is finished, when the last of those who have not hidden are dead, there will be none left but the meek. There will be none standing in their path, and as such their ways will not be subjugated, they will not be downtrodden, silenced, etc. Their way will be the way … but the beauty of it is that (IMO, of course) there will be as many unobstructed ways as there are people, because the meek will not get in each other’s ways.

Say what you want about the power of the bomb or the gun (both more powerful than the pen, IMO), but when all destruction at the hands of humans is past, the meek will inherit the earth, so all the fighting you do now for your way is pretty much pointless … except to the meek, the more greedy of whom will only encourage the destruction so they can have their time (but the greedy, unlike Father Mulcahey, do not get promoted in this scheme of mine). The greedier of the meeks will come out too early, though.

The world will be left to selfless, pragmatic, quiet respectful humans. Would that this time were upon us now.

Whoa…

Sorry for the semi-jack. I was wodering if someone could quote the passage from Revelations.The one that ends sort of like: “No more pain for all these things have passed” Believe it or not I have been looking for this the past 3-4- days(long story).

Ironic that a passage promising an end to weeping should put a lump in my throat every time I read it. The final chapters of Revelation remain an astonishing experience.

[hijack] iampunha, there was article in the Times a few weeks ago about a particular clan of apes (or monkeys – simians, anyway). Years ago, all of the aggressive males had gone off to fight with another clan over control of a garbage disposal area; they caught something horrible from the garbage and died. As a result, the clan became much more passive and cooperative. Even aggressive new members were socialized into the gentler way of doing things.

Scripture in action.[/hijack.

Joshua 13:1
Now Joshua was old, advanced in years.
And the Lord said unto Joshua, “You are old, advanced in years.”

:smiley:

Bear with me. I use the Amplified Bible (more detail).

Proverbs 3
[sup]5[/sup]Lean on, trust in, and be confident in the Lord with all your heart and mind and do not rely on your own insight or understanding.
[sup]6[/sup]In all your ways know, recognize, and acknowledge Him, and He will direct and make straight and plain your paths.

Genesis 2:25

Siege took my first choice.

Therefore another -

Because God isn’t angry at us. He doesn’t want to make things worse for us. He loves us.

Not from the Bible, but -

Regards,
Shodan

This might be a silly question, but what was Jesus writing on the ground?

It’s not a silly question, but the answer is “Nobody knows”.

A traditional answer that developed (IIRC) during the Middle Ages was that He was writing the names of those with whom the Pharisees had committed adultery.

“And they all departed, starting with the eldest”. Presumably because the eldest were the most self-aware.

But again, nobody knows.

Regards,
Shodan

Ephesians 6:4

Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.

:smiley:

I used to quote that at my Dad when I was growing up.
Seriously, several verses from the Psalms, Book of Common Prayer translation.

Psalms 139, 6-11
*Whither shall I go then from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from they presence? If I climb up into heaven, thou art there: if I go down into hell, thou art there also.

If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there also shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

If I say, 'Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me become night, yet even the darkness is no darkness with thee, but the night is as clear as the day: the darkness and light to thee are both alike.*

And from Psalm 148, * Prasie the Lord from the earth, ye dragons and all deeps*.

Another fairly modern answer is that He may have been simply writing the names of other much more ‘common’ sins (i.e. anger, malice, greed, lying, etc.) yet still sins just the same. This reinforced His words, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” as well as re-emphasized the importance of forgiveness.

Tony Montana, the way I found those verses I quoted was by searching through http://www.gospelcom.net/

You can search by passage or word, and even use the advanced search to limit your search to certain parts of the Bible.

This is one of my most favorite threads here, ever. It’s so nice to get this one little corner of the board to just have edifying stuff.

Libertarian, I don’t always agree with you, but that post displays the sort of personality that I must respect.

Thank you for sharing.

Serious response: Thank you for the insight, and for sharing something that is obviously very important to you. Despite my total lack of religiousness, I’ve found this a very interesting thread

Less serious response: You were on a train, while high, and were translating bible verses from ancient Greek, despite being an atheist at the time? You are an interesting character :slight_smile: