PEACE said:
Did you really mean to post that?
I’ve got my Gray’s Anatomy, and a Surgical Atlas of the Head and Neck ready to go. I know that I speak for lots of SDopers when I say “bring on the technical details.”
Thank you, and Goodnight.
In In the Line of Fire, Malkovich as the rogue-CIA bad guy murdered two women by rapidly twisting their necks.
Kr-r-r-kkk! Kr-r-r-kkk!
“Some people die because they’re from Minneapolis.”
That was a movie. I’m convinced there is more to it than twisting.
For a gore and highly technical non-sexual thread it’s remarkale: 22/378 posts/views in two days. Go figure…
I’m new here, if the rules/the mods allow, I’ll continue. I’m sure that I’m right in my main points: neck “cracking” (twisting, etc., neck self-manipulation) cannot be lethal and, J. Malkovich character nonwithstanding, it’s possible to kill a person by causing neck injury (aside from asphyxiation).
Many people here do not believe my knowlege/experience, or whatever I say. Tell me what do you, guys, want to have me to present (short of actual demonstration?). According to the laws of formal logic, it’s impossible to prove any negative statement, e.g., “It’s impossible…”.
How can I prove the other statement?
Wow. Pretty controversial topic for a first-time poster (I’m patting myself on the back now.)
So, if I’ve got this right, those with medical backgrounds say nay, one can neither kill themselves nor be killed in this way. I gather that it may possible, however, to injure oneself in this way, and such injury may or may not lead to death. Nevertheless, I am reassured. It sounds like I am more likely to die by having a South American fish swim up my urethra!
But, as long as we’re having so much fun, are there any present or ex-commando types who’ve seen the neck twist in action? Is it for real? Is it intended to kill, or merely incapacitate the victim? (Should this be moved to the murder/death board?)
Actually, its pretty simple. It seems like a bunch of us have experience in this field. Well, let me refute your hyperextension hypothesis first:
C2-C7 facets all facilitate extension. C1-C2 is rotation (I believe 50% of rotation is from C1/2?, sorry, it’s been years since I cracked open Gray’s, but you pick up a few things here and there.) So as you extend and go into hyperextension, C2-7 will pick up all the extension motion. C1-2 won’t even be stressed.
Now, even if you were to localize extension to just C1/2, provided that you’ve got enough force to break free all the ligaments, all that’s going to happen is that C1 is going to slip off and p and over the dens. You’re not going to fx it that way. The only way you can break the dens is if shear it off.
I actually remember this from class, many many years ago. If you can find old hanging photos from the Net, (from WWII partisans or old Western hanging photos) the knots are all on the side. Take a look at the positions of the heads, they are all bent to the side and up. The dens is sheared off laterally. You will not find any hanging photos of the neck in extension. I think this proves my point.
Well, the mods are silent. I’ll take it as their tacit approval that we may continue.
First, Menjoa, welcome. Your handle looks familiar, but maybe I saw it elsewhere, or I saw Menjos or Manjo :-).
A few points to answer:
So, if I’ve got this right, those with medical backgrounds say nay, one can neither kill themselvescorrect nor be killed in this way. Nobody here ever said it.
** I gather that it may possible, however, to injure oneself in this way,**slightly injury, perhaps.
** and such injury may ** never **or may not lead to death. Nevertheless, I am reassured. It sounds like I am more likely to die by having a South American fish swim up my urethra! ** This was not discussed yet. Essentially, it’s between you and the fish.
**But, as long as we’re having so much fun, are there any present or ex-commando types who’ve seen the neck twist in action? ** They are all busy. I hope, as soon as they see this threat, they’ll reply. Then, we’ll have first-hand testimonies, so to speak.
**Is it for real? Is it intended to kill, or merely incapacitate the victim? ** Please, substitute the noun for “it” and repost. “Carotid chokes” are well known means of police restrain, the technics are described in the appropriate literature. They were intended to subdue the victim, not to kill, of course. But a few mishaps happened and are described as well. Most victims were cocaine intoxicated at the time.
(Should this be moved to the murder/death board?) Sure. Do you have the URL?
Major, you know your anatomy, but I know neck injury.
**Actually, its pretty simple. ** Actually, it’s not. For starters, look up "Pathology of Neck Injury. Peter Vanezis. Butterworth, 1989. ISBN 0-407-01380-6,£50
It is not “my hyperextension hypothesis”. They are well known pattern injuries, well described.
I ain’t need to stare at any WWII photographs, as good professional photographs (not media type) are available in any forensic pathology textbook.
As I said, the laws of formal logic prevent me from proving a negative. For instance, I cannot prove that the Earth will not start to spin in the opposite direction tomorrow at noon. But I can show you that, based on our common knowlege, it will not happen. One can squize the own neck and interrupt the blood supply to the brain (see “carotid choke” above). The brain will still get the blood via vertebral arteries. But not enough to sustain its function for long. As soon as catotid flow is stopped, the brain function slows, the muscles relax and the “choke” can no longer be maintained. It will happen even before the loss of consciesness will occur, in a few seconds. If anyone here wants to refute the above, I’d like to see a reference. I will even make it easier: any case of self-inflickted bare-hands injury in a “helthy” person is accepted.
I can’t provide a reference to an executioner/murderer textbook. But any forensic pathology book will describe accidental/homicidal/suicidal neck injuries, including the ones associated with fracture/hyperextension.
Suicidal injuries will include only the injuries caused with the help of tools.
Sorry for the long one, but I was prompted.
Why shouldn’t you two be allowed to carry on a technical discussion that most of the members here wouldn’t understand? Looking around, threads like that are the backbone of this forum, and I know that much of my best material has been in such threads. Just be prepared for some of us clueless layfolks to ask you to slow down and explain terms now and again.
peace: I know my neck injuries too.
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Your post seems to have sidestepped the fact that your hyperextension hypothesis regarding breaking the dens is wrong. It is wrong, and you’ve not said anything to disprove it.
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No one ever denied that you can kill a person by stroking him out or cutting off blood supply to the brain by twisting the neck, but:
a) A stroke would be an incidental happening since we are talking about causing death by mechanical and physical means.
b) Cutting off circulation will take time. I believe that we were talking about a one time single twist to the neck.
By the way, I am interested in hearing from some CIA or Commando type guys to see if they were trained/can be trained to kill this way.
Major, I never hypothtized anything in this thread. I saw fractured denses. Read the recommended book, and you won’t call it “my hypothesis”.
I never used the word “stroking”. “Stroke” was never mentioned by anyone here. In general, I even do not understand what you are talking about here.
Q.**Cutting off circulation will take time. [/] Of course. If you are talking about manual carotid compression, about 0.1 second. You may do a test on yourself. Use your radial artery at the elbow and feel the pulse on your wrist. Radial artery wall has the same structure as the carotid one.
I believe that we were talking about a one time single twist to the neck Menjoa did not specify the technic. He just asked if one can kill oneself be “cracking” the neck. Later I mentioned possible execution. To be “humane”, it must be done briskly. I used carotid compression to explain that the death by manual (“bare-hand”) injury is impossible. I thought the the concept would be easier understood with carotid example. If you did not understand it, do a “safe” experiment: close your lips shut and squeeze your nose with your predominant thumb and index finger. Tell us how long it took (to cut the air supply) and how long you hold. For your convenience, clocking can be done by assisstant.
peace: I see your problem. When you are caught out with a wrong answer you deny it and talk about something else.
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You said you can fracture a dens by hyperextension. You are WRONG, you cannot.
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YOU were the one who brought up killing by cutting off circulation, not me.
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Stroking out is when a blood clot gets dislodged and carried up to the brain where it cuts off circulation to a particular area. If you don’t even know what it is, then you shouldn’t be giving out your “advice” here.
Peace - I’m occasionally finding some of your replies confusing. I lose track of whether you’re answering the “self-inflicted neck injury” question or the “break someone else’s neck” question.
Major - I believe Peace brought up carotid chokes in response to Menjoa’s question “Is it for real? Is it intended to kill, or merely incapacitate the victim?” as a possible means of incapacitation. He later used it as an easy-to-understand example of why serious self-inflicted neck injury by hand is impossible. I don’t think he’s trying to change the subject.
Peace says he has seen fracture by hyperextension in forensic pathology textbooks, and given a reference. Unless you guys both look in the same book, you can’t get any further - you can’t refute his examples (even by typing “wrong” in capitals!) and he can’t make you accept his examples.
you seem to be arguing that it is physically impossible to force someone’s head by hand into a position which results in fracture of the neck. Is this a matter of strength, or because there is no such position? If the back of my skull were touching my spine, or my head were rotated through 360[sup]o[/sup], would that not result in fracture? Might it not result in death anyway?
When people break their necks in traffic accidents or by falling down the stairs, how is the fracture effected? Is it by a direct impact to the neck, or by a force applied to the head?
Q 1) You said you can fracture a dens by hyperextension. You are WRONG, you cannot
Major, between the tho of us, it’s me who speaks with an accent. Yet let me point it to you: there is only one dens in the neck (the odontoid process of the axis). Therefore, it’s the dehs, not a “dens”. Other dentes* (teeth) are located elsewhere, not in the neck. You can also look up its name under D. epistophei, odontoid bone, odontoid apophysis,and tooth of epistropheus.
I am talking about fracturing the dens (not a tooth) as a part of neck injuries due to hyperextension (and whiplash of the neck. Once again, I invite you to read P. Vaneziz’s book, p.95, about both types of the huperextension injury.
Perhaps, you thought that hyperextension can fracture a tooth (“a dens” in your parlance). Of course, it cannot.
*I got rusty on my Latin and had erroneously used “denses” instead of correct “dentes” as pl. of “dens” before. I apologize for any confusuon it might brought to the discussion.
Q2) YOU were the one who brought up killing by cutting off circulation, not me. I do not deny it. I brought it up only to illustrate my point of absolute impossibility of manual self-killing. My remarks could or could not be construed as “advice”: it does not work, so, it’s invalid.
q3) Stroking out is when a blood clot gets dislodged and carried up to the brain where it cuts off circulation to a particular area..This is one of many causes of the ischemic[/i/ brain stroke. Yet, I still fail to see its relation to the discussed topic.
Matt, thank you for the support. I apologize for any confusion. It was unintentional, of course, because, when I know the subject, I tend to skip some intermediate points, forgetting that they may be clear only to me, not to the audience. I’d be glad to clear any confusion here.
Regarding your last paragraph: It is not easy, but possible. For instance, a sharp strong blow to the chin (yes, in boxing) can case it.* A pro boxer knows how to diminish such injury, so, they are rare in boxing. But they are still possible, rarely may be lethal.
I can draw a picture with the head touching the spine, but I doubt that it ever actually happens. I do not think that turning the head more than 90° is possible. Both hyperextension (withoit actual “touching”) and extreme rotation will result in neck fractures, although of different types. The proximal cause of death in neck injuries is the disruption of lower medulla (the lowermost part of the brain) and/or the upper cervical spine. Usually, it leads to instantaneous death (within seconds), as the nerve inpulse flow to the heart and lungs is interrupted.
Thank you for your attention.
**Hyperextension of the neck can also be cause to the blow to the top oh the fead It occures in the falls and car accidents.