nude camps for kids?

In My Humble Opinion
21

I find it hard to believe that a person smart enough to use a computer can’t understand that his perceptions are subject to compelling cultural prejudices. To put another way, as Jean Baudrillard referenced in Seduction, to those for whom nudity is a way of life, the nude body is “all face”. The breasts are no more sexual than the lips and tongue. Can you honestly tell us that you have never watched a young woman speak and found yourself completely fixated on her mouth, watching her soft, moist lips and her warm, enticing tongue, wondering at the heavenly, feminine bliss you could lose yourself in–even if it was for just one kiss? To put it another way, your reaction to nudism is the moral equivalent to the Taliban’s reaction to a woman sans burka.

You’ve given no reason to assume that a nudist camp is more sexualized than a clothed camp. Indeed, how many self-appointed experts on sexuality have claimed that the human form is far more alluring when something is left “to the imagination”? By that calculation a nudist camp should be the least sexualized place available!

Do you think a bathing suit will protect your daughter from a molester? Do you think that a pair of cutoff jeans will make a predator less likely to pursue a young boy or girl?

22

Plnnr said, "My SO and I and about 1000 other people were at the resort where the meeting was being held. "

Were they just talking about it or were they actively being nudists (probably in a private section of the resort)?

I’ve seen programs about nudist groups. They don’t have sexual thoughts that are brought on soley by the sight of the naked body. My guess is they don’t own much naugahide furniture, either. :wink:

23

js_africanus wrote

That’s exactly right, although clearly the Taliban’s tolerance level is much lower than my own. However:

a) I never said anything about my expectations or interests or disinterests in nudity. We’re talking about children.
b) Your point above is right on the money. A society defines what is the norm and what is acceptable for children. In my definition, forcing girls to weark burka’s is extreme, and encouraging them to be nude together is also extreme in the other direction. And I think it’s fair to say that better than 90% of Americans would agree.
c) All of the arguments in this thread about how natural the human body is could be taken further. For example, is there really anything harmful in having sex in front of children? It is after all a perfectly natural thing to do. Well, I for one don’t think that is acceptable as good parenting.

24

At the local beach the kids play in the water naked…why wouldn’t it be like that?

I wonder what they do for camp sports? Skateboarding, horseback riding?

25

So? Parents have a right to raise their kids. Hanging around nude is hardly more damaging to a child than instilling the ridiculous superstition that some angry guy in the sky will send them to hell if they don’t submit to his worship extortion scheme, but parents have the right to poison their kids with that nonsense, too. If you can’t provide a reason, other than some vague assertion that nude=sexual, then you have no grounds for complaint. If you can show that this is actually harmful, then you have the beginnings of a case.

Of course it is. Since you agree with it, it is interesting that you seem to imply that whatever is the cultural norm is what is acceptable to you. The burka requirement is extreme only because you don’t come from the Taliban’s culture. But if you were, then you would agree that the burka requirement is perfectly reasonable, since you’ve agreed with my point that the cultural view on what parts of the body are sexual is completely arbitrary. But since they’re arbitrary, and since you offer no reason to view one as superior to another, we can only conclude that while you view the burka requirement as extreme, that is outside of what you consider to be the norm, there is no grounds to change it. It is merely unusual to you. The burka requirement is no more unacceptable than the requirement that women in Detroit aren’t allowed to walk around topless. Indeed, since the burka requirement is acceptable, nudist parents requiring their children to go nude is acceptable as long as the nudist can be considered thier own cultural group–because that’s their norm.

Indeed, why is it that a cultural practice should be forced on people just because it is what you perceive as normal?

I don’t care what you think. I care about the case that you can make for your moral stance. I’m extremely skeptical that “don’t fuck in front of the kids” is one of the basic organizing principles of your ethical universe. Why is it bad for the kids? According to historian James Burke, during the Little Ice Age, European parents had sex in front of the kids all the time since they all shared one big sleeping room. Were the kids harmed as a result? Indeed, isn’t that one of the time periods that Republicans always hold up as a good example of Family Values?

If you can make the case that a teen nudist camp is bad for the kids, then do so. If you can show that opposition to teen nudism is a primitive moral axiom that stands to reason, then do so. Surely your opinion is based on something fundamental, isn’t it? If you can’t point to a solid basis for this opinion, are you sure it’s an opinion you want to have?

26

“Were they just talking about it or were they actively being nudists (probably in a private section of the resort)?”

At this resort you have to be nude if you’re on the grounds (weather permitting and except as called for by in the circumstances i.e., when cooking bacon).

As to activities: swimming, horseback riding, tennis, volleyball, canoeing, etc. etc. etc. In addition, the kids were learning about civic responsibility, organizational skills, and leadership styles. The people that participate in nudist lifestyle recognize that lots of people don’t have the least bit of understanding about them so there are lots of educational programs for legislators, civic groups, etc. The kids who participate in the retreat are learning how to foster that level of understanding. Just like any other camp, except they don’t have to worry about rinsing out bathsuits, doing laundry (except for towels), or getting mustard out of their new shirt.

27

Bill H.

Come on. Clearly you are forgetting about aboriginal people around the world (remember those National Geographic pics of boobies?), as well as people who sauna (Eastern Europe and Scandinavia, anyone?), people who go to clothing-optional beaches (the rest of Europe), and so on, and so on. If you were to take a tally of all people who ever lived, I am sure you would find that the tiniest minority of humans are the ones who make nudity into something sexual.

Which becomes apparent in the second post

In the context of last month’s thread re: the global view of Americans - or lack thereof - this is very telling. You have just equated “humans” (first post) with “Americans” (second post)

As js_a said, your view is very, very culturally defined. Just because YOU can’t separate nudity from sex is no reason at all to suggest that others can’t.

28

js_africanus wrote

Well bully for you friend. Next time you don’t care what I think, how about you just ignore me?

Fair enough. You feel it’s ok to have sex in front of kids and encourage them to play together naked. And I don’t.

As to your accusation that I have no substance to my stance, I’m afraid that is more true of your argument. I’ve yet to hear a compelling value for your proposed change for all of us to start having sex in front of the kids.

The propelling argument against it is simply the supposition that modesty leads to more long-lived dual parent families, and that in fact those sorts of families tend to raise children less impoverished, better educated and more responsible.

But I’m not the one to argue that point; I’m sure there are many that will love to. I’m just here to say that in my estimation, sex in front of your children and encouraging older children to play together naked is not healthy. But then as you don’t care what I think, you can skip this post.

29

Bill H. said, "The propelling argument against it is simply the supposition that modesty leads to more long-lived dual parent families, and that in fact those sorts of families tend to raise children less impoverished, better educated and more responsible.

Says Who?

And how modest is “modest”? Are belly shirts out? Are burkas in?

How does nudity lead to divorce and poverty?

Please tell me where you get this information.

30

It is all cultural. The Taliban cover their women’s faces and a pretty face for them must be as sexual as nudity for us. But, in fact, I kind of agree with them: the most attractive part of a woman is the face. There is nothing in the world I like better than a pretty face and I would much sooner get tired of looking at boobies than faces. A face has beauty and expressions which the rest of the body does not have. Suppose you told me there are three different cultures: In (a) the women cover their bodies from the waist up (including face) but go naked from the waist down. In (b) the women are covered from the waist down and their faces but are naked from waist to neck and in © the women are covered from the neck down but they show their faces. I bet the immense majority of the men prefer © because the face is the prettiest part of a woman and it is the window into her soul. Nothing as attractive and sexy. And yet we allow women to go around showing their faces and men like to look at them but nothing worse than that happens. But the Taliban cannot separate the face from sexual connotations.

I guarantee you, once you have lived somewhere where nudity is normal you get over it pretty fast. European beaches are full of nudity and I do not think Europe is degenerating into a continent of child molesters.

31

All these repeated references to National Geographic aborigines running around naked may prove that nudity is not inherently sexual, but they do nothing to prove the supposed advantages of the nudity lifestyle as a choice. What is the big thrill of playing volleyball naked? I just don’t get it. I’d rather wear shoes, a shirt, and shorts, and I don’t think that’s just some “artificial convention” of society. It’s technology that works. The fact that a few scattered aboriginal tribes haven’t adopted this technology proves nothing.

32

Voiding one’s bladder and bowels is a perfectly natural thing to do also, but I don’t think I’d be sharing that experience with anyone, clothed or otherwise. Blowing one’s nose is perfectly natural, but I prefer to turn away when I have to do that. Just because something is perfectly natural doesn’t mean it’s something everyone wants to share. I don’t want to watch people having sex, nor do I want people watching me, clothed or otherwise.

I’m at a loss to understand the mistaken belief that nudity leads to sex. Maybe it will and maybe it won’t. Seeing naked men doesn’t drive me wild with desire, and I doubt that my nekkidity would sent men into lustful passion. Like I said - it’s just skin.

33

** plnnr**, I’m really curious about the horse riding activity.
Surely the kids wear pants for that?

34

Over the weekend I was at the resort. The person laying on the chair next to mine is a Doctor (I know because I’ve been to his office). He and his wife have been married for nearly 50 years (she was there, too, and is an attorney, IIRC). I have no idea as to their combined salaries, but by the size of the diamond ring on her finger and the size of the Mercedes Benz they pulled up in I’d wager a guess that they are neither poorly educated, impoverished, or irresponsible. Their adult children were also there, as were their grandchildren (granted they weren’t completely nude - an exception was made because the tots weren’t potty trained).

Damn near the whole range of humanity was there, as far as I could tell, but the breakdown was as follows:

Majority white, but several black families, a few Oriental, and a couple of Native Americans.

Mostly married and with children, but some single men and women.

I couldn’t begin to tell you what the average educational level was, but most everyone was reading a newspaper or book or holding a conversation that consisted of something other than monosyllabic gibberish. I say “most” because there were a few people who were asleep and I didn’t think to wake them up and say “Say something to me…I want to see if you’re stupid.”

I also don’t know what their median family income was, but no one seemed to be starving, there were plenty of SUVs in the parking lots, and the day rate for a visit is $30. Given the choice between feeding my family and visiting the resort, I’d feed the family. I happen to have the good fortune to have the disposable income to pay that price and I have to assume that everyone else there does as well.

Based on my personal experience (and not just my personal opinion), the supposition that “modest” dual parents raise children in less impoverished conditions, with better educations and earning potential than dual parent families that are “immodest” is pure, unadulterated horse shit.

Sorry, Bill H., but you’ll have to come up with something better than to argue your point. It just isn’t the case.

35

“All these repeated references to National Geographic aborigines running around naked may prove that nudity is not inherently sexual, but they do nothing to prove the supposed advantages of the nudity lifestyle as a choice.”

As far as I know, no one has seriouisly advanced the proposition that a nude lifestyle has any advantages over a clothes lifestyle. It is merely a matter of personal choice. Some folks enjoy being nude in circumstances where others don’t - that’s about the long and short of it.

And you’re right. Playing volleyball or tennis in the nude isn’t particularly comfortable (too much flippy floppy for me). Neither is riding horses if they do anything other than walk. That’s why you’ll find me by the pool or on the beach.

36

Anyone who thinks that nudity automatically leads to sex is just showing off their own prejudices, and lack of self control.

37

Plnnr said, “Some folks enjoy being nude in circumstances where others don’t - that’s about the long and short of it.”

Heh. Plnnr’s funny. Heh.

38

Just wanted to mention about horseback riding: on a horse board I frequent there was a poster who requested advice about horse riding in the nude. Everyone gave her inquiry quite serious thought but we came to the following conclusions:

  1. riding naked in a saddle would at best be very uncomfortable and at worst lead to chafing and/or bruising, especially of the naughty bits and legs (riding in shorts in a saddle is also a fairly bad idea).

  2. Riding bareback you would get a bunch of horse hair and horse sweat up your butt (horses shed all the time just like cats & dogs) and in other various crevices, which, we unanimously agreed, is gross.

We suggested a nude carriage ride instead.

39

Of course getting sexually excited just from seeing someone naked is sociatally conditioned.

But these kids live in this society too.

They have gown up going to nudist events. But how much of their time is spent that way? Every other weekend? I assume that during most of their time they go to Jr. High school and play on the local soccer team. Clothed.

These aren’t kids who live in the Amazon and see everyone naked all the time.

They are more accustomed than most to accepting nudity as normal. But they still have lots of exposure to Brittany Spears and low-cut jeans.

Don’t tell me a 14 year old boy isn’t going to get excited from seing a pretty 14 year old girl naked. That it isn’t a thrill for him to see.

These kids aren’t kept isolated. American culture might be hing up on sex and nudity, but they are part of this culture too.

40

But these kids have exposure to another culture (pardon the pun). We don’t. They’ve probably grown up around these nekkid people all their lives. It’s not like they’re getting thrown in for the first time. And 14 year old boys are horny all the time anyway, so what’s the big deal?