Political Compass #29: Marijuana should be legalised.

Great Debates
41

In every single marijuana thread, I find myself refuting this statement.

Honestly, the money wasted on prosecuting and imprisoning marijuana offenders is almost infantesimal in the grand scheme of criminal justice budgets.

My husband works in a prison which houses over 2,500 inmates. Less than five are in there for marijuana posession, and these were fellows who were caught with vast amounts of the stuff: in no way arguably “personal use.”

The problem with studies that cite people in prison for “posession” is that they don’t differentiate between the stereotypical “kid with a joint in his pocket” and the guy who had a Ryder truck packed full of weed.

You’ll get no arguments from me that even a single person in prison for a marijuana related offense is too many-- I’m an advocate of decriminalization-- but the reality is that very, very few people go to prison, or even to jail for posessing small amounts of pot. In my state, IIRC, you have to be caught with five hundred grams before it’s even jail is even a possiblilty in sentancing.

Nor am I saying that miscarriages of justice don’t happen. Overzealous prosecutors and judges trying to make political statements can ruin lives, but it’s simply not as common as some advocates of decriminalization would have you believe.

42

What? I love a good cordial.

Didn’t we do this debate last week? Yes, legalize. Legalize!

43

(-5.50, -7.54)

Agree.

I personally would never touch the stuff, but I too couldn’t care less if someone else uses marijuana. Heck, I’d be quite happy knowing that legal marijuana would hurt drug lords.

I must admit, though, if it ever came to a vote and didn’t pass, the most passionate response you’d get from me would be a fiery “meh”.

As for legalizing other, more dangerous drugs, like Heroin, I personally think that’s going too far.

44

Well, I wouldn’t differentiate between the two either. Neither of those guys should be in jail.

45

(-0.12, -2.05)

Legalize it, regulate it, give it free to old folks. Give Granny an ounce of weed and a ton of yarn and get back an afgan to cover the garage! :smiley:

Damn, I miss weed. But that is the price I pay for the job I do. Everything in life has costs.

46

Hey, no arguments here. All I’m trying to say is that, in the public mind, there’s often a difference between “posession” and “dealer.” A lot of people who would release the user would still punish the dealer, as hypocritical as that may be. When people think of “posession” they often think of small amounts, “personal use,” if you will. I think that the term is overused in reporting (from a legalization standpoint) instances of imprisonment in order to raise the outrage of the reader who starts imagining college kids going to prison for having a dime bag in their dorm room. The image of the “drug dealer” simply isn’t an appealing one, so the wording is carefully chosen to avoid giving that impression.

Hell, people should be outraged that anyone goes to prison over such an innocuous substance. But, we should confront the data honestly. It lends no support to the cause to be accused of dishonesty.

47

I agree that the figures shouldn’t be misreported.

Someone who thinks people should go to jail for “dealing” but not “possession” is not pro-legalization; they’re just giving users a break, and fighting marijuana on the supply side instead of the demand side. I think the effort would be better spent convincing them not to fight it at all, rather than massaging the data to convince them to give breaks to more people.

48

[QUOTE=Lissa]
In every single marijuana thread, I find myself refuting this statement.

Honestly, the money wasted on prosecuting and imprisoning marijuana offenders is almost infantesimal in the grand scheme of criminal justice budgets.

My husband works in a prison which houses over 2,500 inmates. Less than five are in there for marijuana posession, and these were fellows who were caught with vast amounts of the stuff: in no way arguably “personal use.”

[QUOTE]

Does your husband work in a federal or state prison, or the county lockup? Cuz the Orange County, Florida, jail has it’s fair share of small time users that don’t have the resources to bail out or are there because they violated their parole by being caught with a joint or two.

And by resources, I was referring to the time taken away from the cop on the street, the poor stoned bastard getting arrested, the careers ruined, taxpayer and private monies spent on prosecution and defense, and finally, resources spent on incarceration and probation. Nowhere did I imply that the only cost to society was the cost of locking pot smokers up. Its only infantesimal until you’re on the receiving end.

I’m glad that we both agree that one is one too many.

49

He works in a state prison, not a jail. It’s a medium security facility, which, in this state, holds your “ordinary” convict: muderers, rapists, et al. Higher securities are for those who commit crimes inside, and lower security is for those who have earned it through good behavior. (Violent felons usually can’t get the lower designation despite behaving.)

If I had more time this morning, I’d look up Florida’s criminal code to see what the penalties are for small amounts. In my state, a joint or two is a misdemeanor-- a ticket and a fine. Also, I’d be interested to know if the marijuana offense was the only one with which they are charged-- often times they were caught with it because they were arrested for an unrelated offense. This is another reason the statistics can be misleading. A guy may be charged with, say, murder and posession, and if he’s convicted on both, he could be counted as a marijuana offender, even though his other crime was probably what put him away, with the drug charge being almost an afterthought.

Parole violations are a whole 'nother ball of wax. Parole rules are very strict: guys can be bounced back by being caught drinking alcohol, let alone using marijuana.

During my husband’s career, I’ve met a few prosecutors. They’re really not as zealously rabid as they’re sometimes portrayed. A lot of them are nice folks, who really have no interest in putting people in jail just for the hell of it. One of them told me that, honestly, he doesn’t give a damn about marijuana users. A lot of time, when he proecutes, it’s because he knew they were guilty of other, more serious, things, but couldn’t prove it, so charged them with the only offense he could prove, or added the charges because the offender was such a menace to society that he wanted to add as much prison time as possible.

As he told me, his job is to protect the public. A kid with a joint or two is really no threat, but one who is violent, and is known to harm others but there isn’t enough evidence to convict on the serious offenses might be prosecuted on whatever offense he can prove.

50

-5,-6 here.

Your entire argument can be used to justify legalizing pot.
Marijuana use IS ingrained into a large portion of American society. Stopping people from using maijuana is not going to happen. We are stuck with pot, and it has been acceptable for most of human history in North America. We have to deal with it. I’d rather deal with the problems of legal pot than the problems of the drug war.

That egg has long been boiled and sitting on our table. We just chose to hide it under our napkin, and it’s starting to get pretty stinky under there.

Have used and enjoyed pot in the past. How about others in this thread? Arguing from personal experience (using or dealing with users)?

51

I made a small post, mainly because I’m tired of regurgitating the same argument that I’ve posted in so many threads, and most people here at The Straight Dope are in favor of legalizing pot, so there’s really no reason to repeat what they say.

Speaking from the point of view of someone who still smokes, but only on weekends or very occasionally a weeknight when I have no more work to do. I’m responsible :).

52

True; they already have it, but that alone would be a terrible reason to legalise it. Yes, we already have to deal with some of the fallout from illicit drug abuse, but do you really think legalising it would not increase the problems even a tiny bit? At the moment, the law creates incentives for drug users to stay at home (reducing the potential for causing any problems to third parties); legalising a wider range of drugs would bring the users and their behaviours more into the open, where they can cause problems.

Possibly; I don’t live in the USA, so I can’t really speak about that.

I’d be interested to see some hard data on that prediction.

Again, as I said, I don’t have a problem with drugs being legalised, as long as it can be done in a way that doesn’t produce additional inconvenience to third parties. I think that’s a fairly reasonable condition.

53

So if you had a crackhead son, would you sit there and let him die for his mistakes?

54

What did I say? I said there was no obligation. That does not preclude attempting to do so on your own hook. So no, I wouldn’t just let him die. I probably wouldn’t just let anyone die. But drug use takes a toll, both societal and financial, and if people want to risk their lives for a few minutes of chemical bliss at what point do we just tell the person that they’re on their own? I say that that is spelled out upon purchase.

55

But (to play devil’s advocate here and reverse a previous argument directed at me), should we not also dismiss any obligation to assist a wider range of self-caused harms, such as the health problems caused by bad diet?(Nobody forced you to eat all those burgers). Injury due to road accidents(nobody forced you to drive a car). etc…

56

(-8.00, -5.49)

Oddly enough, I have to somewhat disagree.

Why? Because I don’t want pot to become tobacco. I don’t want it to be an industry where guys in suits discuss market shares in boardrooms, cartoon characters advertise it on billboards, and brightly-colored packages of joints sit behind the counter at Speedway. I don’t want pot smokers going on about their right to blaze one at the table next to mine in a restaurant. I don’t want government warnings on the side of the package stating that excessive toking can lead to excessive consumption of Cheetos, which can lead to obesity.

At the same time, the idea of anyone going to jail for possessing or even selling weed is reprehensible to me. I don’t know how I could reconcile my desires to see pot legalized yet keep it somewhat underground and out of the hands of corporate America, but that’s where I stand on it.

57

Are you telling me you’d rather see granny in jail for smokin’ a joint to help her ------, then see a pack of U-Toke-Ums behind the counter at 7-11?

then how about this, only the seads can be sold, if you want it you have to grow it yourself?

58

Now that he mentioned it, I do somewhat value the culture of pot communities. Networks of friends and contacts, frequent get togethers.

Of course, those are all traits of the middle class drug community. The lower class drug community is much nastier and would greatly benefit from being extinguished.

59

I agree with you about this slippery slope. I solve it by advocating full adequate coverage for everyone regardless of the source of the health problem. Cries of “I don’t want to pay for the results of his drug habit!” ring hollow to me. They ignore the things that the complainer does that cost society. And everyone does SOMETHING that costs society, many of which are listed above. The cost of government regulations telling us which behaviors are bad and won’t be paid for is likely greater than the actual cost to treat those behaviors.

60

Norml has a page on their Web site where you can look up each state’s marijuana laws. Anything over 20 grams (0.7 ounces) in Florida is a felony. Florida also has a Mandatory Minimum sentencing policy, which forces a judge to give mandatory prison time regardless of the circumstances of the marijuana possession.