By “identification,” she is probably using it in the somewhat technical sense referring to the process of “getting in to a character’s head” and seeing the film through their eyes.
I identify more strongly with Hermione than with Harry, in the Harry Potter books. I think which character I identify most strongly with in any given work depends more on personality than on gender: I can identify more with nerdy women than with most men.
Just as actual humans run the gamut from ubermasculine to uberfeminine so too can protagonists. I’m merely trying to point out that if you only ever identify with female protagonists who are extremely masculine and exist in extremely masculine settings, you’re not actually identifying with female protagonists but with men in drag. I’m not saying it’s a failing, mind you. People are allowed to like who they want to like.
Gender rarely makes a difference to me as far as understanding/identifying with the character, as long as their personality traits in general are acceptable to me. Some of these traits seem to more commonly be written for female characters, unfortunately, but they’re just as much a disconnect there as with male characters.
For those I can think of off-hand that I think I could say I ‘identified’ with: Kira Nerys, Jadzia and Ezri Dax from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Samantha Carter from Stargate, some of the incarnations of Batgirl from various comics/animated series, Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell, Sarah Connor in Terminator 2 (but not in the original), Xena and Gabrielle from Hercules/Xena, Revy from Black Lagoon (limited experience, haven’t seen that many episodes, but it applies in those I’ve seen)… Probably a lot more that don’t come to mind off-hand.
And (for me) Meg Murray from “A Wrinkle in Time”
Ellie Arroway (Contact)
Remaining within SF, there’s Dr. Susan Calvin. Now, Asimov writes some god-awful female characters, but Susan Calvin’s pretty good.
Sarah Conner in Terminator 2 especially, I think every parent could empathize with her character.
Begging your pardon, but this feels rather close to “women don’t identify with doctor characters—doctors have been traditionally male, so they’re just identifying with a man in drag.”
The way I see it, people tend to identify with/idolize active characters. Characters with agency, ability, will—“adventurers.” For various cultual and sociological reasons through the ages—I imagine it’s because fiction reflects and is shaped by the cultures that create it—these characters have tended to be male. But in modern times, this has begun changing, with audiences willing to accept a different “actor” in the role of “hero.”
You might as well say that to be a fictional “hero” is just imitating a white Catholic nobleman, since that’s what most of them have been, in the balance of western fiction. But the “hero” figure was never really a man—it is an archetype, one that’s become more open to what kinds of humans could be allowed to fill the part.
Really? Because that seems very different than what I feel I’m saying.
Interesting thread topic…what comes to mind for me:
Kagome (Inuyasha)
Arya Stark (Game of Thrones)
Nausicaa
Ellen Ripley
Shu Lien (Crouching Tiger)
Sarah Conner (in T2)
Kind of a “the world is exploding around us and if none of the rest of you are going to do anything about it, then I’m showing you how” kind of attitude.
I thought that I should identify with one of the many Joss Whedon women, but I came to realize that I think they are meant to be either male fantasy archetypes or female empowerment role models.
Well :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: to you too. Damn right it is a delusion, or at any rate a confusion, and a demeaning one at that.
Many, I would say almost all, straight men are fully capable of enjoying works with female protagonists who are not “men with vaginas,” just as women are capable of enjoying works with male protagonists who are not “women with pricks.” Maybe there are a handful of deeply, neurotically homophobic men who would baulk at identifying with a female protagonist, but doubt whether even most regular homophobes will have any real problem with it. Plenty of straight men enjoy the novels of Jane Austen or the Brontes, for instance, and even when they do not, it is not usually because they are unable to identify with the female protagonists. Men (with many exceptions) may tend to be less interested in romance and the finer nuances of interpersonal relations, and women (again with many exceptions) may tend to be less interested in violent action. That, however, is quite a different issue from identification with the protagonist.
It may be true that it is currently more difficult to market a work with a female protagonist in a traditionally male role than one with a male protagonist, but I see no reason to think that that is because of a problem with identification. Much more likely is that some people (men and women alike) are made a little uncomfortable when their gender expectations are challenged. Even then though, once you have got them in the door, most of them will not have any difficulty in identifying with the opposite-sex protagonist (as all the examples in this thread of popular female action heroes attest). Furthermore, from what (admittedly relatively little) I know of the video game market, it looks to me as though marketers there think that many male gamers rather enjoy identifying (and rather more closely than happens with a movie or a novel) with a female protagonist in a male role. Perhaps, indeed, Hollywood and the fiction publishing industry are a bit deluded about this.
Personally, as a straight but nerdy man, I find it easier to identify with many female protagonists than I do with ultra-male, ultra-competent, macho action hero types (whether played by women or, as more often, by men).
I, for one, am well aware that that is what she means, and she is wrong.
Agreed, although I would have less problem with Harry if it were not for his incongruous skill at Quidditch. In most other respects he is just a rather courageous nerd who happens to be “the chosen one.”
These two statements are entirely contradictory.
So a woman isn’t a woman if she’s killing zombies with an Uzi? Does she need to bake a cake or cry or something for you to recognize her gender?
What I don’t like is the devaluing of all female protagonists that aren’t action heroes. I think it’s important for people to recognize that women can be brave, strong, smart etc without fulfilling stereotypical “masculine” roles. But what you are saying here is pretty insulting jsyk.
I’m not sure if there is something there or not. I’ve identified with many of the female characters mentioned already (the latest being Korra) but I also have had such bad experiences with science fiction by female authors that I hesitate to buy those books. Sure there are great ones like Wild Seed and Downbelow Station but there have been far too many that I just didn’t bother to finish.
Twilight Sparkle (my little pony), Clarence Starling (silence of the lambs, both the book and movie), Dana Scully, Ripley, Jill Boardman (Stranger in a strange land), Jodie Foster in Contact (the movie itself is forgettable), numerous video games where you pick the gender of your character.
I’ve never had any problems identifying with female characters.
Which is to be expected; the people who run the industry consistently tend to look down on their audience and consider them to be dumber and more bigoted than they actually are.
I can’t help you. I try to be a Straight Man but no potential Comics I feed straight lines pick them up.
Oh, that’s not what you mean? Well, I don’t really see much through the protagonist’s eyes, unless she’s a first-person narrator and I have to, and then I usually flip the page when things get “icky.” Nothing personal, ladies. I’m also not interested in the sex lives of guys.
Same here. I identify just as much with Honor Harrington as I do with Horatio Hornblower, except for very brief passages when she’s doing something that only a woman would do.
The only exception I can think of was a Heinlein book I read many years ago, IIRC “I Will Fear No Evil,” where a man’s brain was put into a woman’s body. That creeped me out.