The current king of France punched me in the mouth today

II Gyan II:

Larry Borgia:

I think this sums it up in a nutshell. There are two assertions, they do connect in a natural or sensible way. Someone suggested replaced “king of France” with “invisible pink unicorn”, but I suggest replacing it with “the mayor of our town.” The non-existence of the person (or unicorn) is not relevant to coherence.

An example of an incoherent sentence could be: “My mouth punched the current king of France today this morning’s afternoon.” The parts of the sentence (who, did what, when) don’t connect or follow in a natural or sensible way.

Neither does the original sentence. In your example, an existing objects performs an act not considered possible, whereas the original example has a non-existing object performing an action. Both are impossible. Also, Larry Borgia is assuming that the asserter is mistaken about the identity of the puncher, but is not mistaken that the action did take place. The working model seems to be: someone did punch me today; that someone, I think, is the current king of France. But I can parse the sentence as if someone is hallucinating, given the obvious nonexistent referent: “the current king of France punched me today”. Maybe there was no punch either.

God told me to write this post.

Mu.

From the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_furiously):

Well, yeah – but did you get the point of why I said that in regards to the subject matter of this particular thread? (Remembering that the idea underlying my remark is one of the perennial themes of debate in this forum?)

I don’t see what you meant. Mind explaining?

God is explicitly an undecided quantity (formally) and in polite discourse, if someone treats it as a meaningful referent, we normally don’t treat it as an absurd construction. The ‘current king of France’ or ‘invisible unicorns’ don’t enjoy that privilege.

Sure. I’m going with Heinlein here – “God” has no objective referent in the material world to which one can point and have universal agreement as to the meaning of the term. Those of us who believe in Him often define Him in quite different ways – get jthunder and zev_steinhart to have a go at the Doctrine of the Trinity, if you don’t see my point here.

“God” is “the present King of France” – not in a sense that would startle clairobscur, but in terms of the usage of a term to identify someone or something that has no objective natural referent at the time of speaking.

Nonetheless, rational statements can be made about the above. I can discuss learnedly what theologians and Church Fathers have said about God; an evangelical Protestant can disagree with me about what He expects of humanity, and while we will disagree, we will do so using a common vocabulary and reference material. An atheist member can identify what I mean by God well enough to assert that such an entity does not in fact exist. And so on.

Whether or not “the present King of France” is guilty of assaulting you, or suffers from male pattern baldness, one can make comments that reference him with some degree of intelligence. For example, “the present King of France would be a member of the House of Orleans” is a true statement – reworded, “If France still had a king, he would be from that lineage” – and this is quite a bit more probable than his being a Bernadotte, a Romanov, or a Ch’ung.

In short, an object or person with no visible physical referent can be so well defined by the terminology used to identify it or him that intelligible, non-incoherent statements are possible regarding it or him.

For someone to say ‘The invisible pink unicorn kicked me with her hooves’ is somewhat more reasonable a statement than ‘The invisible pink unicorn tastes like lemonade’ – and one can argue the plausibility of those two statements using standard, universally agreed referents.

In past discussions of prime numbers, I’ve pointed out that “one” is not regarded as a prime, despite its fitting the most common plain-English definition of primes, for good reasons – because the abstract concept of “prime number” permits some interesting and useful theorems in number theory that would be defeated by regarding one as a prime. If this is acceptable, when the entire idea of “number” is a human abstraction, then terminology that adequately defines a non-existent or only hypothetically or faith-based existent entity, like “the present king of France” or “the Judeo-Christian God” or “the invisible pink unicorn” has a coherent conceptual referent, even if not a physical one.

For example, with what we know of human genetics, “the present King of France is bald” is inherently a much more likely-to-be-true statement than “the present Queen of France is bald.” And “the present king of France is Slovakian” or “the present king of France is gay” are sentences that have coherent meanings, even if not a real-world referent to affirm or refute them.

How does II Gyan II decide if a term is a “meaningful referent”?

It looks to me like a term is a meaningful referent if there’s something in the physical world that you can point at and say “There, that’s what I’m talking about”. Is justice a meaningful referent?

I disagree, in part. Most nouns define things that are composites of characteristics. It’s quite possible to assert a word or phrase that has no present physical reality but whose characteristics are such that a common concept is possible. AFAIK, there is no such thing as a purple-and-white penguin – but everyone reading this thread can conceive of precisely what I mean in using the phrase.

“The present King of France” is (a) a man, who (b) occupies a political office, to wit, the throne in © a nation. Men exist, the nation of France exists – the problem with “the present King of France” is that the existent nation of France does not have a man sitting as its king. But one can conceive of him as a potential.

In fact, before this thread runs down, there is an extremely marginal (exceedingly improbable but not strictly impossible) chance that the French parliament could reinstate the monarchy – and, lo and behold, we have a person who fits the referent, and who either did or did not punch Ultrafilter in the mouth, and either is or is not bald.

What I’m arguing for, in essence, is that concepts have existence as concepts where the referent is, while itself nonexistent, composed of elements which can in fact be referenced. “The volcano in Kansas erupted today” is a valid false sentence – because we all know where Kansas is, and we all know what a volcano is. That there is not, and has not been for eons, an active volcano in Kansas – or even an extinct volcano with measurable topography – is irrelevant. We can in fact conceptualize a Mount Saint Helens or Fujiyama sitting among the cornfields and making like Dante’s Peak, and talk intelligibly about the characteristics of such a mountain.

How do I decide if anything in this world is meaningful? I don’t know. :stuck_out_tongue:

Well, I would suggest it is, though it is probably in part to not considering objects as the exclusive range of referents.

People, people, there’s an ways way to solve this. I am French, and I have heard that my family is descendant from French royalty…so, I merely claim back the throne that is rightfully mine, come over there, and sock you one right in the kisser. Simple, no?

This thread is utterly meaningless. Like the the phrase ‘weapons of mass destruction’. Well, not exactly like, for this thread is harmless, unlike above quoted phrase, which is extremely damaging. So now it is not like it at all!

Clicked the wrong button. By ‘above quoted phrase’, I meant ‘weapons of mass destruction’. Must clear up any possible confusion. Becoming quite paranoid about it. Oh dear, this will probably cause even more confusion. Sorry about this. Must stop. Soon early September will be here, then no more from me. Hooray!