silenus: (Quickly glancing around for a weapon) A-ha! Now I shall pummel you with…a small plastic statue of Buddha? A stamp album of Discworld stamps? A container of cat grass?
Shit.
That’s about right, but that’s against bare ballistic gelatin. Cover it with a thick cloth or leather, the bullet breaks up outside the body, and penetration is minimal. 12" of penetration in ballistic gelatin is considered a minimum for effective terminal ballistics, and 16" is desirable. They used to be used by the Sky Marshal Service (now the Air Marshals under the TSA) for aircraft protection to limit damage to the aircraft and collateral damage, but they’ve gone to standard hollowpoints. I’ve never used them personally so I can’t speak to their reliability in terms of cycling, but I’ve heard several law enforcement professionals who did use them on a regular basis (the only way to afford to shoot these things at ~$2 a pop) say that they were not the most reliable things in the world, and accuracy falls off dramatically after about 20 feet because of the light weight.
The .357 Magnum with a 125 grain hollowpoint is the undisputed king of one shot stops; it’s a fine round marred only by the large gout of muzzle flash and the sometimes literally deafening sound indoors. I personally like the hard-hitting Hydra-Shok (although that’s a 158 grain bullet in the .357 Mag loading); I don’t know that the little post actually does anything useful, but the nickel-plated case never seems to stick in the magazine or the chamber, and in my (admittedly limited) experience it seems as accurate as match ammo out to any reasonable distance for a handgun. I’ve never had feed problems, even in the jam-prone Taurus auto I used to own, despite the conical bullet. An excellent choice. The only problem with firing .38Spl in a .357 Magnum is that crud tends to accrue in the forward ends of the chambers where the shorter case doesn’t extend, which a thorough cleaning can take care of.
The Glock isn’t my favorite–it just points all wrong to me–but it has a reptuation for reliability (as long as you keep a solid grip on it) and despite fad and fashion I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the 9mm Parabellum, provided you put the bullets where they need to go. I learned to shoot on the Browning Hi-Power and still think that it’s an excellent design surpassed only by very few modern pistols, and then only in modest evolutionary jumps.
Stranger
Stranger said
My understanding (and this has some support from Law Enforcement-types I have talked with) is that this post helps with penetration on a surface like a glass windshield so you have stopping power of a Hollow Point and the penetration of a FMJ. Leastwise, this is what I’m told.
I didn’t know people had to ever FIRE pump-actions while defending their homes. I’d think the sound of you racking a shell into the chamber would cut through the fog in the head of even the densest crackhead.
While I agree on the needs for training and practice, and I can believe that one can never have too many guns (I can’t even decide on my first and I’ve been working on the problem for decades–do they still make that over-under .22/.410?), I’d say most people are better off with a couple dogs if they want to keep out intruders. But even a deep growl isn’t in the same league as the chick-chuck of a pump shotgun.
Nah, the post is plain lead, and it usually squashes if it hits anything solid. The bullet does exhibit more consistant expansion (and also somewhat less, though still adequate, penetration) than most standard hollowpoints of comperable caliber and weight. The manufacturer’s and designer Tom Burczynski’s explanation is that the post helps keep the cavity from being plugged by cloth (thus not expanding and acting like a FMJ), but in fact it doesn’t work all that well at that, either, as demonstrated by these results. It’s still an excellent round, just not one that matches up to the manufacturer’s hype. (See the Black Talon for examples thereof.)
Stranger
Not entirely sold on the rest of the post, but I can certainly attest to the difference between a shot taken on the range and one in an enclosed area. Friend of mine had an ND with a Remington 870 while standing a few feet away…six years later I think I can still hear the blast.
Crafter_Man and Tranquilis are wise, listen to them. The recommendations for the Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 are good ones. Reliable, affordable, and easy to operate. Remember that any situation that would involve using this weapon will be by its nature a high stress situation. Practice with the weapon until its operation is programmed into your muscle memory or you could find yourself fumbling around with it when you need it the most.
Very interesting link. Thanks. I take it from this that the denim-covered target resulted in no expansion or very little and resulted in the complete penetration of the gel such that the rounds were not recovered at all. Is that how you read this? The denim-plugged rounds acted as FMJ’s might? More penetration but less knock-down effect?
Curious and unexpected. Thanks
ETA: Do you have any info on the effects of covered tagets and the Glasers? Gel pics maybe?
Here’s a Box O’ Truth test that shows Glaser Safety Slug penetration through 6 sheets of drywall (so much for minimizing penetration). The second link of the first post of this thread purports to have tested the Glaser against bare gelatin and protected by a sheet of gypsum. You can’t see that the bare slug expands rapidly at 3" and doesn’t go past 6"; although this would leave a serious surface wound, the penetration is insufficent to reliably hit the heart or spine. In testing with the drywall in front of the gelatin block, the round didn’t fragment and penetrates about 11", which could charitably be described as marginal.
It’s your choice, but I wouldn’t use Glasers for defense. Then again, it’s my feverent hope never to test any theories about stopping potential emperically to begin with. 
Stranger
Sorry for the delayed reply. Those are great links and very enlightening. Consider a long-standing ignorance fought.
Thanks
I love shotguns but not for defense. I prefer my pistol. You are going to learn to operate a device. It is not a finger of god but it is dangerous. I am not going to be one of those macho guys who say treat it with resepct and it will treat you with respect. It is a tool, plain and simple. It has the power to kill but so does my nail gun. Learn how to use it. Take it out and hold it, load it and unload it. Get a feel for it.
They say a pistol is useful to fight your way to a real gun, but unless I have to take on a platoon my 1991 should be enough, it fits in a small case, quicker to maneuver (but all my training was with a 1911, so I’m admittedly biased).
Ditto. Gimme a 1911 anyday.
On a separate note: how come I only find these threads two-to-three days late?
Not much more I can add that hasn’t been covered, but maybe a good synopsis is in order:
Check state and municipal laws regarding firearms and home defense. Ask around or do some research about the “legal climate” in your locale regarding criminal and civil liability for people who may have used firearms in home/self defense. A decent gun store may have the answers, or, if your state allows concealed carry, ask an instructor these questions. These may have some effect on your selection of weapon, caliber, and ammo.
The choice to get a firearm for home/personal defense is a very personal one. You must be willing and able to use lethal force (pull the trigger on another human being) should the situation arise; if not, stick to baseball bats, golf clubs, and put 911 on speed dial on your cell phone.
Try a multitude of firearms (long guns, handguns, various calibers, various makes/models), and consider the likely scenario in which you might use the weapon, before making a final decision; for instance, if you’re an apartment/condo dweller, overpenetration may be an issue.
Get to a basic firearm safety course. Consider safe storage options, weighed against accessibility. Do you have children? Roommates? You’re taking a lethal weapon into your possession; you have a responbsibility to keep it out of the wrong hands in your absence.
If you do purchase a firearm, whatever you get, practice with it until it feels natural in your hands and you don’t flinch as you pull the trigger (one of the main reasons for missing the target). Learn proper trigger pull (another one of the main reasons for missing the target). Learn how to reload quickly, by feel rather than sight; in a “situation,” you don’t want to take your eyes off of the “bad guy” to fumble bullets/shells into your weapon.
After you have become proficient with your weapon of choice, don’t just stick it in a closet/drawer/safe and forget about it. Take it out to the range every now and again to refamiliarize yourself.
Clean it. Even if all you need to do is wipe it down lightly every couple of months. It’s a tool, and like most tools, with proper maintenance it’ll damned near last forever.
:looks over post:
Yep. That’s about all I got to add.
My personal advice would be to stick with an over-under shotgun if it’s the first one you’re purchasing. Move up to a pump or semi-auto later. As you migrate from over-under to pump to semi-auto, the complexity increases:
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The operations are more complex (as in, how do you load, fire, unload, clear jams/misfires/hangfires, clean, and lubricate, all of which are critical to properly operating your weapon).
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Maintenance/repair gets much more complicated. Anyone can spend 5 minutes with an unloaded over-under and completely understand how it works, and anyone could readily identify and diagnose any broken/failing part in such a simplistic device. Not so for pumps and automatics. With those, you’re in for some real learning, or you’re in for trips to a professional gunsmith. I don’t like the idea of owning something I can’t fix for myself, all other things being equal.
Same basic arguments apply to revolvers vs semi-auto pistols. For someone who’s not a gun nut, not going to invest the time in proper care, maintenance, and really understanding the inner workings, a revolver is a much simpler and more reliable choice than a semi-auto.
Don’t get me wrong, I love semi-autos (handguns and shotguns), but I have a whole set of gunsmithing-specific tools, and a full suite of common spare parts, and I know how to tear them all down into a million pieces and clean/lube/inspect them properly on the way back together, and I take the time to do maintenance on a regular basis. If this doesn’t sound like you, Keep It Simple 
Hijack…
Really? I’ve been around guns all my life and was always told that dry-firing a gun was one of the worst things you could do to the firing pin assembly. Was dear old dad mis-informed on this point?
I’ve got a pump in the closet I’ll gaurantee is cocked since I never dry fire it.
-rainy
Dry-firing is bad for the firing pin, but in the same way that alcohol is bad for you. Once in awhile is ok, all the time is bad.
I thought I responded to this earlier, but apparently it vanished in quantum fluctuations in the spacetime fabric of the SDMB. Anyway, as silenus succinctly says, dry-firing occasionally won’t hurt anything, and indeed it’s part of the process of field stripping many autoloading handguns. It’s also recommended by many manufacturers that a gun not be stored indefinitely with the striker compressed as it can cause the spring to relax and permanently lose strength. (I think this is mostly a problem with older firearms but some makers still recommend decocking by dry-firing.) Most striker-fired pistols are cocked or partially cocked (like the Glock Safe Action) and can only be decocked by dry-firing.
Stranger
Well I have indeed learned something. Thanks, fellas.
-rainy
It is often possible to protect the firearm from ANY harmful effects of dry-firing. On guns with an exposed hammer, this is done by holding the hammer back while pulling the trigger, and slowly lowering the hammer.
On many other guns it can be done by unlocking or opening the action prior to pulling the trigger, then closing or locking the action. This may not be possible depending on the design of the disconnector. It works well on a Mossberg 500, and an SKS. Mauser design bolt actions will decock the striker if the trigger is held back as the bolt handle is lowered.
NOT dry firing is especially recommended for .22 cal firearms, as the firing pin slams into the breech face when dry firing. Holding the bolt open by 1/8" or so works for most blow-back designs.
An alternative is to load a “snap cap” to decock the arm. Snap caps are dummy cartridges designed to harmlessly stop the firing pin. A spent shell casing works well for a .22.