Trans issues, or the politics of transsexuality

Great Debates
41

Exactly. And the same people would raise hell and petitions if transgendered were to be classified as a disability, fall under the ADA umbrella which could require employers to provide a seperate bathroom. It’s ridiculous to worry about the extreme what-ifs, and ridiculous to assume that someone would go through the emotional trauma, pharmaceutical and surgical intervention, and generally ostracism for the sole purpose of entertaining a fetish which would be outed in short order. No one can see through a stall, and none of us know if the person next door is getting his/her jollies eavesdropping, anyway. How long, exactly, could a pervert get away with such a ruse before outing him or herself? It’s ludicrous to derail an easily solvable issue with such outlandish hyperbole.

The college I attended (16,000-17,000 enrolled) and my employer (500 permanent; 900 seasonal reps) provide a unisex bathroom which we all use from time to time, and our resident transgendered students and employees usually stick to it, but when it’s occupied, they stroll a few doors down to the other restrooms with multiple stalls. So far the only people who have made a fuss have been little old ladies who gossip like the devil anyway and seem to thrive on having something to rage against.

This doesn’t have to be so hard. Don’t most of us share a bathroom with the opposite sex at home?

42

Hell, I used to work at a cofffeeshop on a college campus and every once in a while, they’d slap signs up on all the segregated bathrooms saying that for that day all bathrooms were unisex to remind us of the issues transgender people deal with on a regular basis that the rest of us take for granted. Civilization did not fall.

43

So you would err on the side of a private business firing someone for being transgendered. After all, that is freedom to administer his own employees/business.

Or does your definition of freedom mean not only to do/act how you please, but to force others to agree/submit to that?

I’ll admit that I’m playing a little bit of devil’s advocate here, but I don’t believe that every new thing coming down the pike should be forced on people as a matter of federal law.

And to answer other questions: do I have to have started hormone therapy before I am “officially” a transgendered person? What if I am in the opening stages?

44

I do advocate adding Trans* people to existing non-discrimination laws. Like disabilities or religion or cis-gender, transgender/transsexual is an innate characteristic that doesn’t make a difference to performance of most jobs, so discrimination on the basis of “discomfort” should be disallowed.

45

There are a number of threads already talking about the dangers of transexuals in gendered bathrooms. You can read those if you’re curious.

46

It’s really not a new thing. Women have been wearing trousers, suits, jeans, and other formerly traditionally male attired in the workplace for 50+ years now. Also shearing our hair off and forgoing make-up as it pleases us. Butch women and women who take no pains to display feminine appearances have been “passing” as plain old ordinary women for a very long time. In other words, women have been crossing your imaginary gender boundaries for longer than you’ve probably been alive and you’ve presumably accepted it without comment. Does it bother you when a short haired, bare-faced, pants wearing women waltzes into the Ladies’ like she belongs there?

47

Isn’t the business owner forcing other people to do what he thinks by threatening to fire them if they do otherwise?

There are dozens of employees and one employer. Why should the employer’s rights be superior to all of the employees’ rights? Shouldn’t a system be designed to protect the rights of the most people in the group rather than to protect the rights of the richest individual in the group?

48

Just what it sounds like - to change one’s gender identification in public, and also in private depending on how you define it.

My transition went textbook-perfectly. I’d give the details here but I don’t think it’s of interest to this thread. Suffice to say it involves months or years (in my case) of studying and planning, learning about the experiences of others, being open and honest, working with HR, approaching your co-workers directly first, having backup plans and backup-backup plans, and behaving politely, professionally, and being willing to compromise.

49

Although not widely tested, since April of last year transgender employees have been covered Federally under non-discrimination laws. Furthermore, the EEOC announced they are going to focus very hard on cases of transgender discrimination in the workplace and crack down hard on employers who do.

50

I know this isn’t an “Ask the…” thread, and if these questions are too personal (it’s obviously too personal, I suppose), just ignore me. I’m trying to understand trans issues and terms better myself.

Anyway, here are the too personal questions: Your quote above means that: you were born with ambiguous genitalia, but you’ve transitioned to fully female outward appearance, right? And, you’ve always thought of yourself as a woman (hence, transsexual woman), right? And, not that it matters in terms of your rights or anything, do you know what your X’s and Y’s are? And, from Cecil’s references to you, your SO is a woman as well, right?

I have worked with two transsexual women, one who transitioned during the time we worked together. (I think that’s the right term – they were men on the outside and became women on the outside)

And, I sincerely mean no offense by any of the above in case I’ve asked something stupid or wrong or offensive, I’m just trying to better understand.

51

But aren’t we talking about freedom in the abstract sense? You might agree that I have the right to look out the window and masturbate to squirrels running up the oak tree. I’m not hurting anyone and everything is done in the privacy of my home. That is freedom; and I’m sure we would agree.

But if my boss thinks I’m a pervert and doesn’t want to associate with me because I masturbate to squirrels, and we pass a law to prevent him from doing that, isn’t that the very definition of “anti-freedom” for him?

I’m free to do what I want, but not free to force others to accept that whatever in the hell I’m doing, even if objectionable to reasonable people, and should be protected by federal law because liberals in Congress think it should be?

52

No, but you generally have to be diagnosed by a psychologist or psychiatrist, who will usually give you a “carry letter” on letterhead.

The internet sadly is rife with self-diagnosed transpeople, just as there are huge numbers of self-diagnosed ADHD, autistic, and Aspergers patients. It can be very difficult to tell who is real and who isn’t unless the transwoman is willing to be honest about everything right from the start.

There was a huge furor over Kaitlyn on this message board, also known as “the K6 incident,” which is still laughed at and joked about, because the person made up a life of being an attractive and glamorous lesbian transwoman, She posted links to fake photos of herself, which some Doper discovered one day.

It’s not known generally that I contacted Kaitlyn outside of the message board, and she gave me all her IRL info so I could verify it (which I did) - she really was a transsexual lesbian, but instead of being the glamourous petite Asian girl, she was an anglo transwoman in the very early stages of transition, on hormones and just starting presenting in real life, with a wife, family, friends, and job which all not only did not support her, they were universally hostile towards her. Yes she jerked the SDMB around, but it was out of a need to escape, not out of a need to troll the SDMB.

When I last spoke to her she was unemployed, nearing divorce, and out of hope.

I never admitted to being either intersex nor a transperson on this message board until after I transitioned full-time. It wasn’t anyone’s business except my friends, and I wanted to be known as “Una the scientist” instead of being defined as anything else. However, I think it helps in trans topics to mention that my experience is first-hand.

53

Reasonable people have no problem with women who shirk traditional feminine clothing, hairstyles, or skip cosmetics. Reasonable people have been completely apathetic or disinterested in the restroom choices of butch or masculine women for half a century. Reasonable people recognize that women blur or ignore traditional gender roles with no repercussions daily. Reasonable people support equal treatment of people.

54

I’m sorry, some of the questions are too personal for me to answer at this juncture. I have had from birth a physical condition which means I cannot be classified as 100% female or 100% male (I have a doctor’s letter in fact stating such), and sadly I cannot bear children. In full disclosure about one part, my condition is relatively mild - the word “intersex” encompasses a broad range of conditions and disorders, many of which have no outward appearance nor ambiguous genitalia. Nonetheless, it greatly impacted my physical and mental health, and I suffered for decades until I had some of the symptoms treated (but not fixed) last year.

I don’t like calling myself intersex because there are so many intersex people much worse off than I. But I wanted to emphasize that I have a bit of a different perspective mentally and physically than, say, an XY transwoman.

I’ve always either thought of myself as female, or for some time as “none of the above.” I have never in my life thought of myself as male.

My wife Fierra, is an XX woman. She fell in love with me knowing fully in advance everything about me from back when we were just friends, and despite everything still decided to propose to me. Women like her are quite uncommon.

At one time I may have been attracted to males, like most women. It was more that I was open to anyone - “none of the above” is a lonely place, and when you just want someone to love and to love you, you don’t get hung up on “parts.” However…after I was raped by two men as a teen, then years after sexually assaulted at my first engineering job by a man over several weeks, I lost any interest in men whatsoever.

55

If nothing else, it’s a matter of the greater need. You have someone who is willing to go through extensive therapy, medical intervention, expense, risking ridicule and losing a good chunk of friends and family. Logically, the level of need that a person must have to drive them to go through transition must be immense. The only sane response to that person is compassion. You don’t even need to understand it or feel comfortable with it (although a “good liberal” should at least try). If you think it’s sinful or icky or just confusing, suck it up. That’s nothing in comparison.

On a lighter note, remember when Ally McBeal was on and people thought that communal unisex restrooms were going to be commonplace any time now? I guess that didn’t happen.

56

Una, thank you very much for sharing what you did, and helping me understand some tiny part of what you’ve gone through, and better understand trans issues.

And, I’m glad you’ve found happiness with Fierra.

57

As an official member of the SDMB Offenderati, I should have been informed the moment a trans thread was started.

Re Questions

The primary issue is that trans people are human beings. This may seem basic and like it doesn’t need saying. Sadly, many people treat the transcommunity as it and other.

Re Legal Issues

Last time I checked, surgery changed your legal gender in some states and not in others. When and if you could marry changed state to state.

Jtgain

The consensus amongst us Liberals is that JayJay’s right to be gay trumps somebody else’s right to be anti-gay. I can’t see why this principle shouldn’t apply to trans people.

58

Seems like a pretty non-abstract issue to me. An employee wants to go to work dressed in the manner they feel matches their gender. An employer doesn’t want to allow this.

I’m confused. Are you changing your position here? Because this contradicts what you’ve said.

If a business owner fires an employee for wearing something the business owner doesn’t like, then the business owner is forcing his views on the employee. So if you think people shouldn’t be allowed to force their views on others then the business owner shouldn’t be allowed to fire his employees over their attire. The employees are free to wear what they want to wear, the owner is free to wear what he wants to wear, and nobody can tell anyone else what they can wear.

59

I think you are giving conservatives/bigots/religious right too much credit here. Any shred of compassion they claim to feel for others evaporates the moment they attach any scent of sex to an issue, and make no mistake: they are fixated on sex. They may be kind and charitable when it comes to birth defects, cancer, or depression, but matters of gender or orientation inspire the dirtiest, most base thoughts and the result is everything that is the opposite of compassion and empathy.

Healthy, well-adjusted folks don’t give any thought to who is in the adjoining stall nor speculate that their neighbor is doing anything other than going to the bathroom. The fact that this is the sticking point when it comes to trans issues is embarrassing and petty.

60

Heck, I’ve worked jobs where I traded others for a spot behind a bush and a Big Gulp cup (if you’re on the crew installing the toilets the toilets don’t exist until you’re done, right?) Somehow, we all managed to take a piss without assaulting or embarrassing each other.

Mind you, I’m cautious in any public toilet just because there is a non-zero percentage of bad people out there, but honestly, too many people are just irrational about these things.