A totally post-op transsexual is almost certainly going to have been legally female via court order, and so kicking her out would be sex discrimination.
(And some pre-op transsexuals are legally female due to having a coincident intersex condition. I know at least half a dozen. Depending on the state; YMMV.)
Some of them don’t think. At a recent party a pre-op girl I personally know stripped down naked in the hot tub, and even the other pre-op girls at the party were very uncomfortable with that, for various reasons. I know of one new TS person who was kicked out of a women’s room for peeing…standing…with her skirt hiked up over her waist…and the door to the stall open…good Goddess.
It’s an unusual subject, in that almost all transwomen I know (I’ll wager I know more than everyone on this board combined) would never want to stand out or be “made.” They would never, ever show up nude to a spa because then everyone would know they weren’t a g-girl. I cannot think of anyone, other than the one girl I mentioned above, who would be naked in front of women OR men until they had their SRS. I mean, really, there’s an unwritten social code in most TS communities which is very strong, one aspect of it is “do anything you can not to be made by others.”
I wouldn’t say “correct” (probably more like, “matching” or something), but otherwise this is my position.
Being a fairly shamelessly open minded person, I wouldn’t particularly care about co-ed locker room situations, but I know there are many people (of both sexes/genders/ etc.) who would. Now, if I was in an all-woman locker room and caught a glimpse of a penis, I probably couldn’t help but stare, making me a totally rude asshole and probably making our trans friend uncomfortable, too. So, idk, there’s a lot to consider.
So, I can see someone being asked to leave if their surprise penis (or vagina, for that matter) made all the other patrons somewhat shocked or uncomfortable. They should absolutely be refunded their money and the situation should be handled as politely and delicately as possible.
There’s a penis room and a vagina room. You go to the room assigned to the one you have.
OK, a few things wrong in here, but I’m going to assume it’s out of ignorance.
It benefits them immensely to use the same facilities as others of their gender (and it’s not “preferred” unless you’re talking about genderqueer people - transsexuals and transgendered persons are who they are, they didn’t choose what they are). Not only that, using or attempting to use women’s facilities is part of the assimilation process of the real-life experience portion of transsexual treatment, as per WPATH 7 et al. A transwoman who used a male facility might actually have that counted against her by a psychologist, so they might tend not to go to spas at all if others will see them naked.
It is psychological harm, and their gender is not a choice.
A transwoman is not a man who “prefer(s) to be a woman.” Until you understand this, you are, I fear, barking up the wrong tree here.
Stats on transwomen harassing or assaulting genetic women show such incidents are virtually nonexistent. Rather, it’s typically a genetic woman who harasses a transwoman.
A “little rudeness” is probably never justified unless the person is proven to be going out of their way to offend. If they are truly transsexual, then they almost certainly have breasts which will be very easy to identify, even if small, unless they are very early in their transition. If they are a non-hormone transgendered person…then yeah, it might be hard to tell them from a CD or g-guy. And yes, there are cases of CDs/TVs and g-guys harassing women by dressing up. I can’t deny that, but likewise that also doesn’t justify being rude to the transgendered and transsexuals.
Transwomen in transition go to the women’s rooms and women’s areas for part of their physician-directed assimilation and real-life experience (as well as honestly believing that it’s their right to be there, and in some states it is in fact their legal right), but there’s another reason which drives them to the women’s areas.
Let’s assume the near-hypothetical transwoman in the OP is real, and in transition (rather than a non-hormone TG person). Where should she go, exactly? Imagine the scene in a men’s spa, with a person who has female hair styling and eyebrows, probably none or almost no body hair, female body curves due to fat distribution, female-looking skin texture and color, breasts, possibly female jewelry on…and a penis. I’ll tell you what happens in the Real World - said transwoman is laughed at, mocked, pushed around, punched, kicked, physically thrown out - or any of the aforementioned. And in some uncommon cases, sexually assaulted or raped. I personally know transwomen to whom all of these things have happened as a result of being forced to use the men’s toilets, and in some cases locker rooms and showers.
Now what happens if she goes into the women’s spa? Most likely, some women complain, some maybe some say a snarky comment or two, and she’s asked to leave.
Between the two choices, the best one is obvious.
Between the two choices, maybe the unsuspecting general public shouldn’t be involuntarily and unknowingly recruited into being part of the individual’s treatment.
Agreed. I was thinking about this thread overnight, and I’d be made really uncomfortable to be an unwilling participant in this.
I really like the penis room and the vagina room. Maybe we could change the door signs to reflect this? A nice symbol of a yoni could do for the woman’s room. 
I think the obvious choice is choice #3: understand that --while it is perfectly ok in every way to be transgendered-- that it is not a standard default for the majority of folks in society. If I were transgendered, I probably would wait until I was post-op before I used facilities where I would be nude around strangers, just to limit the situations you describe.
In an ideal world, we’d all be enlightened enough that a trans person at any stage would be able to feel comfortable to do whatever the heck they wanted without judgment from the outside world. Unfortunately, that’s not the world we live in-- yet, at least. So, while I see your greater point, in a practical sense, I would think it would be in the trans person’s best interest to avoid situations like nude locker rooms.
And hell, I can’t even remember the last time I was butt naked in a spa or locker room. If I’m at a spa with saunas, I just wear a bathing suit (a trans person could wear bikini bottoms, for instance). I don’t use the locker rooms at the gym for changing, but if I did, I’d honestly probably head into one of the stalls and change there. Whynot would have to elaborate of course, but I’ve never been to a spa where they wouldn’t let you wear a swim suit if you wanted.
Not all cultures have the same comfort with unisex nudity.
Personally, I’m not a “fairly shameless” person. It would make me uncomfortable. If the business owner feels it would be harmful to their business (i.e. a greater number of people embarrassed or uncomfortable, especially uncomfortable enough to leave, or to not return again) to disallow this, then I feel the business owner should be with in their rights to ask such a person to leave.
FTR, my best friend is a pre-op transwoman. I’ve used the same public restrooms as her. But I don’t like being disrobed in front of my doctor, let alone someone with opposite genitalia, in this kind of setting. If I knew the changing rooms were open, I wouldn’t go there.
The solution may be to have a few “family changing rooms” where those who are uncomfortable or who may make other patrons uncomfortable can change.
StG
As someone else said, it’s cultural. I would flat out never go to a spa like this. I am not a nudist and have no interest in just walking around showing my goodies to all and sundry. Really, I wouldn’t even sit around naked in an all-woman’s facility; as Diosa says, I’d wear something.
I do change in the locker rooms when I go swimming, but I am very modest. Women just walk around, naked as the day they were born. I can’t do that. But why do I have to? I don’t judge them for their ways, why must others judge me for mine? To each his own.
ETA: Miller, I can’t tell from the link if that picture is SFW or not?
Yes, it’s safe.
Um, well, yes, I would totally be uncomfortable with that guy in there. Why? Does he have a vagina?
So, an ankh or the Venus symbol for the vagina room, and the Mars symbol for the penises. And thanks for the new word (I had to look yoni up).
I have no problem with having a M2F in the ladies’ changing room - so long as I know it’s an M2F person beforehand, or they’re in an evident “transitional” state (and in this case once we got over the initial surprise we’d probably say she should have given warning). The ladies’ changing room is not a place where I expect to be seeing penises with accompanying body hair. Men warn before walking in, women warn before walking into the men’s. In-between, please warn, not because it’s wrong but because it’s not part of the usual expectations.
ETA: according to Google, the guy in Miller’s pic was born with a vagina. I don’t know his current genital status.
what is this I don’t even
I think he’s referring to this statement:
“A transwoman who used a male facility might actually have that counted against her by a psychologist, so they might tend not to go to spas at all if others will see them naked.”
As to the guy in the link, which is so obviously posted as a “gotcha” it’s ridiculous, yes, I would be uncomfortable with that fellow there, HOWEVER, if she’s got a vagina AND is being referred to as a she, that is where she belongs and at this point I agree that it’s my lookout to Deal with it.
I would think that would be a difficult case either way. Looking at that picture, he looks very much like a man. He has tats like a man, poses like a man, has his head shaved like a man, muscles like a man: all of the cultural symbols that define a man. He doesn’t look like he’s in doubt or trying to be a woman; he looks like he’s trying to be a man. I would hope he would have some discretion, but yes, he has a right to use the woman’s room.
Please excuse all of my pronouns in the above two paras. Until the English language comes up with a good gender neutral pronoun, I must continue to use incorrect pronouns, sadly.
But the OP doesn’t specify whether it’s post or pre, and actually, the tale has filtered through so many people, I am dubious of almost every aspect of it. For all we know the person who got kicked out was running around waggling a penis at people. (I never believe stories that have been filtered through so many, especially not OUTRAGEOUS stories).
Need more details.
Crucially, yes, was this person pre- or post-op? While I’m supportive of TG individuals, I’m also supportive of women who have survived sexual assault. I can see where being naked in a space you believed to be “safe”, and then unexpectedly and unwillingly confronted with strange penis (whether it ensues or not) could be extremely triggering for someone there. I personally am naturally comfortable with being naked, BUT this natural inclination is greatly hindered by an emotional reaction that clothes are protection against assault. If there’s no reasonable chance of assault (at home with doors locked, in a well-populated women’s locker room or wet spa), I’m fine, I don’t much care. If there’s some chance – no matter how irrational – I panic. This is not dependent on the penis-owner’s behavior, intent, or how realistic the “threat” actually is, I will feel threatened anyway. It’s not something I have control over, and I would actually have to leave the spa ASAP. Then they’d be faced with giving me my money back. Of course, if post-op, I doubt I would notice, and if the place had made it known that naked facilities were co-ed, I wouldn’t go in the first place (and no harm, no foul on that). (aka, what doreen and Septima said.)
This is a real problem, given how common sexual assault is. I don’t have a good solution for a pre-op customer, since they’d probably face the same sort of fear-of-assault going into the biologically-same gender-opposite locker room. But a business can only hope to please most of the people most of the time, so it might be a little unfair to tell them that the majority of their customers should suck up their discomfort to accommodate one, relatively rare, customer.
Now if it’s true that the staff were unjustifiably rude (as in, the TG customer was not trying to make a scene) and/or they didn’t offer a full refund of the entry fee plus any services purchased but not received, that’s a problem.
Diosa-- I’m pretty sure I’ve been to the spa WhyNot is talking about, and IIRC bathing suits are prohibited in the wet spa area. They probably don’t want threads and fabric shreds clogging up their filters.
You could change in a bathroom, put on the provided cotton shorts and tee, and skip the wet spa in favor of going straight to the (clothing-required, co-ed) dry spa area. Of course you’d have to be okay with skipping that entire part of the experience.
I believe that Miller’s point is that the “penis and vagina room” argument requires Loren Cameron to use the women’s locker room; an arrangement that would discomfit both the women and Loren. Clearly, this is exactly the sort of problem we, as a society, wish to avoid.
The idea of the general public somehow being exempt from seeing people in the process of transitioning strikes me as, at best, missing the point. It is an exercise for the transitioning person to learn how to interact with the public and to use public facilities as their preferred gender and it’s a great opportunity for the rest of us to learn how to be cool.
I will agree that FOAF stories are worthless as evidence of anything and that a transitioning person should not be intentionally attempting to offend or discomfit anyone, especially in a place as private as a locker room.
