I would say it has less.
“Wait til the Father gets home!”
Diogenes you are precisely correct in your assessment of Revelation. It was written as a comfort and warning to the faithful and within the text “John” specifically identifies the anti Christ by the number 666, knowing the reader during that period would be able to identify the person in question using Gematria. What else is there to say?
widdley
Indeed!
widdley
I agree with that. As ** Siege ** mentionned, according to the Gospels, Jesus explicitely stated that nobody knew the day, not even him (but these people know better than Jesus), and that it will come when nobody will expect it.
On the other hand, snake-handling is actually mentionned (and so is moutain-moving, but for some reason, it’s not a popular passtime amongst faithful christians).
Yeah, the discovery of Morgan Edwards’ college paper (it wasn’t a widely published book nor do we know if he ever preached of a Rapture distinct from Christ’s Return) broke the 1830s barrier as being the first documented clear teaching of a distinct Rapture. There is also “A Discourse on the Last Days” psedononymously attributed to Ephraem of Syria which speaks of a taking away of Christians for protection during Tribulation, but in the fullest context, it seem to be teaching the preservation of Christians in safe areas of the world (consistent with Revelation 12- the Woman cared for in the Wilderness). Still, it was Darby & friends who really got the PreTrib Rapture teaching rolling.
RE Brazil- there is a growing Pentecostal/Charismatic revival happening there, in which I am sure Rapturism is being taught.
Now to the actual OP-
Ezekiel 37- the Restoration of Israel from a time of exile & death- possibly
beginning with 1948 State of Israel (its historic precedent was the restoration of
Israel under Cyrus & his successors)
Ezekiel 38-39- the Divine rescue of Israel from invasion by a northern power- to be fulfilled, perhaps in a Russian invasion (a popular notion until the fall of the USSR), an Islamic alliance, or the AntiChrist (historic precedents- the attempt of Haman to kill all the Jews in the Persian Empire, foiled by Esther; the attempted
Hellenization of the Jews by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, foiled by the Maccabees)
Matthew 24. Mark 13, Luke 21- the traditional “wars, famines, earthquakes, false Christs & false prophets” were actually presented as general events- with the BIG signs being Evangelization of the world (oikemene in Greek- oft used for the Roman Empire) and the Desolation of the Temple.
Trouble is- the Gospel was proclaimed & the Church established throughout the Empire in that generation (30-70 AD) and the Temple in a series of events was
desecrated & made desolate (beginning with the murder of James half-brother of Jesus on the Temple grounds by command of the High Priest Ananus around 62 AD & culminating in the Temple’s destruction by Titus’ Roman troops in 70). In one way, the fall of the Temple-Priesthood system was indeed the End of the Mosiac Covenant World and the Sign that the Son of Man in Heaven was Lord. (There are a few Christians who indeed believe that all the Apocalyptic events were fulfilled in 70 AD & that there will be no literal Second Coming by Christ- that when we die, we enter Christ’s Kingdom & Eternal Judgement in Hell but there will be no earthly Kingdom or Judgement- this teaching is called “Full or Consistent Preterism”.)
In Luke 21: Jesus does teach that Jerusalem would be dominated by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles in fulfilled. It is possible that the retaking of Jerusalem by the Jews in the 1967 Six-Day War is the beginning of this fulfillment.
II Thessalonians 2 Paul teaches that Christ’s return & our gathering to Him would not occur until the Man of Sin/Lawlessness aka the Son of Perdition (the traditional “AntiChrist”) arises with deceptive miracles & established himself as God in the Temple, only to be destroyed by the Spirit/Breath of Christ and the Brightness of His Coming. Paul also mentions that something is restraining his influence until the time for his coming. Interestingly, in the late 30s AD, the Emperor Caligula has planned to set up an image of himself in the Jerusalem Temple, but he was killed by the Praetorian Guard & Emperor Claudius enthroned before that could happen- even more interesting- “claudere” in Latin means “restraining”.
IN SHORT - whew!-
Signs I believe are worth consideration-
the 1948 creation of the State of Israel and the 1967 retaking of Jerusalem
the rise of the great anti-Christian powers of Naziism, Communism, and Islamism/Jihadism, and the philosophies of Western secularism & “New Age” occultism
the globalization of communications (including Evangelism & the building of Churches), economics, & warfare (including the creation of nuclear, chemical & biological weaponry).
Personal note- I became actively Chrstian at age 13, in 1975, upon reading Hal Lindsey’s LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH. We attended the Christian & Missionary
Church, which actively teaches the soon PreMillenial return of Christ while the Rapture timing is left open (all my pastors taught PreTrib but it’s not a C&MA doctrine). In 1982, while disillusioned with PreTrib & embracing a LateTrib Rapture view (my present stance), I did join the Assembly of God, which does teach PreTrib (but my dissent is tolerated as I do not aspire to a Pastoral role there).
In the late 1980s, I studied Preterism (Partial) & Dominionism (PostMillenialism)-
right now, these are my beliefs-
I think there will probably be a final Tribulation under a final AntiChrist leader/system, concluding with the return of Jesus to establish His Millenial Kingdom. I think this was a clear teaching of the early Church & is the most likely interpretation of the Bible prophecies.
While the signs I noted above to cause me to consider the possibility the Apocalypse may occur in my lifetime or within this new century, I think Christ has greater plans for His Church- including the successful Evangelism of all nations & the building of Christian societies, cultures and governments, which could continue for centuries- before the Finale’.
Even if I believed Christ was returning in my lifetime, I think life should be focused on just daily Christian fidelity & doing whatever good possible & building for whatever future may come. Also, to understand possible End Times future events, it’s essential to understand the past “End Times” events of 30-70 AD.
“Mommy, what does FriarTed mean when he says ‘In short…’?”
“Absolutely nothing, Honey. Absolutely nothing.”
Answer:
It isn’t necessary to “slog through the entire new testament” to know about the “rapture:” it is in a specific section of it: Paul’s epistles. There we find that the rapture or “catching up” (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) will occur when “the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”(Romans 11:25), i.e., when the body of Christ (Romans 12:5; 1Corinthians 12:13,27;Eph. 1:22,23; et. al.) is completed, which is the entity God is placing believers–Jew and Gentile-- in, presently.
There is no way to know (by scripture) exactly when this catching up will happen. Your office friend is right in the respect that it could be today. Her assertion that unbelievers will know it’s happened, because all these folks will be suddenly absent, may be in line with the “left Behind” book series, but it isn’t in agreement with scripture. 1 Corinthians 15:50 says “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption,” which says to me that these earthly bodies of “flesh and blood” ain’t going to heaven. What is going? Our spirits; but not without a body: "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.(KJV) This “house not made with hands” we are to be clothed with, is the same incorruptible heavenly body the Lord returned to earth with after his resurrection:
"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (Phil 3:20-21)( KJV)
Although you can’t know when this event will happens, you can know that when it does you’ll be in the number that goes. Scripture says that those who have trusted in Christ, believing he died for their sins…are…“sealed unto the day of redemption.” (Ephesians 1:12,13; 4:30)
“The Rapture” is not a coherent Christian/Biblical philosophy.
As you’ve seen here, adherents to this heresy select snippets from the Bible and patch them together out of context. I’ve never seen an attempt to justify the Rapture heresy in which (1) all Biblical passages on topics deemed relevant by Rapture believers are cited, and (2) all passages cited are given in context.
There’s good reason for this.
You see the same thing in certain (not all) self-professed “fundamentalist Christians” who ignore the Sabbath Day commandment (an essential part of the First Law) yet cite a few Levitical and Deuteronomical prohibitions as “the word of God” while blithely dismissing others that are inconvenient to their lifestyle.
You may have seen the popular bumper sticker: “WARNING: In case of Rapture, this vehicle will be unoccupied.”
I liked this one I saw a couple years back: “In case of Rapture, can I have your car?”
The Indie Memphis film festival was last week, and I was involved in two movies. One I wrote and directed (which won the Hometown Narrative Feature category! Yay me!) and another, which I helped out as crew, occasional camera, body double, etc. The second movie was a comedy about the Rapture. it doesn’t take the concept seriously at all, but it’s really not as scathing as it could have been–in fact, it’s pretty lighthearted, all things considered.
So I’m at the kickoff party schmoozing with filmmakers, journalists, actors, etc. etc. when I get stuck in a conversation with a woman who is very, very drunk. She asks which movie I’m involved with, and I tell her about the two I worked on. She said she was very interested in seeing the second movie because she had read it was about the Rapture and she was a big believer in the Rapture. I said if she believed in the Rapture she was going to hate the movie, but she was drinking scotch and was undeterred. She said that she was so convinced that the Rapture was immenent that she had refinanced her house for five years. I said “If you’re so convinced you’re going to be leaving so soon, why didn’t you refinance for 30 years instead of five years? That way your payments would be much lower and by the time the tab came due you would be long gone.” She was not amused.
It’s the number of the Beast, not the Antichrist. The Antichrist is not in Revelation.
No it isn’t.
I think you’re confusing the Rapture with the second coming. The passage in Thessalonians which so often gets distorted into the “Rapture” is really just Paul’s answer to those who were asking whether their loved ones who had already died waiting for the parousia would still be able to go to Heaven. Paul says they will be “taken up” first and then the living would join them when Jesus came back. It was not an assertion that there would be a preliminary harvesting of “good” people as a prelude to the “tribulations.” THAT is sheer fantasy and does not exist in any Biblical text.
Right again, Diogenes. The mistake was on my part. And again, once more for emphasis, the writings were made for those directly involved in that point in history. Using gematria, the reader would know the identity of the Beast. These were definitely intended for the “near” rather than future generations.
widdley
Agreement again, Diogenes, with your assessment of the non-existent Rapture references. With my guest reg. about to expire and with no plans to register permanently, I want to say I’ve very much enjoyed your informative and concise assessment of scripture on this and other threads.
Cheers,
widdley
Historians must have overlooked the all mountains falling, the 2 witnesses being bodily assumed into Heaven before all eyes on earth and Jesus landing on the Mount Of Olives.
Those were, obviously, the events of “that time”.
:dubious:
Vanilla, is your literalist fixation so firm that you didn’t even read the words “imagery” and “symbolizes” which you quote?
Okay then. Tell me what those symbolized.
Or what someone imagines they symbolize.
DtC will have to do that. I haven’t read Revelation as much as some other books – too dense and bizarre. I’m just pointing out that DtC didn’t claim that these events occured in ancient times.
Nope, they were all genuine predictions. Jesus is going to get revenge on the Romans…any day now…
Seriously, There are some real predictions, or more like promises, that Jesus will return and bring justice, that the faithful will be rewarded and the persecutors punished. It’s expressed poetically, figuratively, not literally but it is an expression of events to come.
But not all of the book is an expression of events to come, only the final judgement. The context for these promises was the persecution of Christians and Jews by Rome in the late first century. Many of the most well know images can be readily identified within that context. The “Whore of babylon” was Rome, the Beast was the Emperor, 666 was a numerogical code for Nero (who was widely believed to have been reincarnated as Domitian). The tribulations were the ongoing persecutions.
This is not a radical or a skeptical interpretation. This is how the book has always been read by the RCC, Orthodox and other conservative churches. You can find this exact interpretation in the Catholic Encyclopedia.
Darbyism, “Rapture theology,” Hal Lindsay, The Omen, LeHay and Jenkins, and all the rest of the multiplicity of theories about Revelation and the “Endtimes” are created from imagination, decontextualized verses and selective interpretation. It can’t be supported by a plain reading of the text.
Thanks, widdley. Sorry you’re not going to stick around. Good luck to you.