I’d skip the salt. From one of my anabantoid books, “Gouramis And Other Anabantoids” Hans-Joachim Richter:
However, it does go on to say it is possible to breed in harder water, but recommended to breed in conditions as close as possible to their native environment.
If you are talking about large chunks of debris, settling to the bottom of a container I agree with you. If you are referring to TDS, I disagree. One of the best ways to remove a lot of the crap from municipal water is with an RO Unit (cool chart if you scroll down a bit). I won’t argue that letting water sit can remove some of the chlorine, however, I’d recommend aeration, if this is your aim. Since the OP is going to use Novaqua, it seems a bit pointless.
I don’t disagree with this, however, I will say ammonia and nitrites will likely be added as well. Not necessarily a bad thing, since one is attempting to establish a colony of good bacteria. Something that might be easier and more effective, without buying the bacteria, is to add colonized gravel or a colonized decoration from an existing tank.
head… spinning… I’m going dizzy from the confusion…
One of my bettas got ill (who happened to be the only one of my 3 female bettas that the “groom” is actually attracted to–he’s so picky) so I’m holding off on the breeding. I got roundly slammed for keeping them in 1 gallon tanks on another board just now.
To gallon or to buy them all separate 2.5 gallon aquariums with separate filters and heaters? :eek:
To use salt or not to use salt?
To age or to not to age?
To RO or to not to RO?
The salt is an ich and fungus and internal parasite preventative, according to Faith: http://www.bettatalk.com/betta_diseases.htm She seems to be doing well with that, so I’ll stick with her advice, although I might use about half the salt she recommends (which is what I already do)…
The RO option is attractive but quite costly–if I’m reading Google correctly, it’s not even really instant, they only can filter a limited number of gallons a day and you have to put in some additives to add back in the minerals that it filters out. What’s the difference between RO’d water and distilled water?
I’ll keep on aging my water to let sediments settle. Even if bettas can breed at the bottom of a buffalo footprint, better safe than sorry…
I am going to keep my ailing betta in a 2.5 gallon tank with tetracycline (the others are A-OK so I’m not going to buy 2.5 gallon tanks with heaters & filters for all of them-might be a good idea to reserve these tanks for “hospital” tanks) until she’s OK. The breeders say it’s OK to keep them in 1g tanks as long as water changes are frequent–which they already are (100% change 2x weekly). She seems to be doing a little better already. If she survives, I’ll go with the breeding. If she doesn’t, I’ll beat myself up and enter a deep depression and forget this whole breeding thing.
Sorry you were slammed. Since you mention doing frequent water changes, I don’t really see the problem. I use tens for breeding smaller fishes, but if they’re willing to breed in something smaller, I’d say it’s worth a try.
I’m taking it the salt is meant as an ich preventative by stimulating the fishes’ slime coats. I’m sure other people swear by it, I personally use salt on community tanks and koi, though not for ich prevention. From what I’ve experienced personally, and some information I’ve shared with friends on some cichlid forums and through the AKA (American Killifish Association), I and others found eggs do better without it. Since that’s all personal opinion, take that FWIW. I did find an interesting article regarding ich though, that specifically discourages the use of salt in treating ich. As for the fungus, the methylene blue should cover that, and unless the fish are wildcaught, the risk of internal parasites should be low. At any rate, I’ll have to do some searching in the use of salt to prevent internal parasites, new one for me.
I also noticed in the link you provided, a recommendation for using Aquarisol. That’s a whole 'nother controversy, since it contains copper. Since it lists Zycosin as an ingredient, I did a quick search, and thought you might be interested in this article from The Skeptical Aquarist.
I don’t use RO water, unless I am dealing with a sensitive reef tank. My mentioning of it above, was an example of a way to remove TDS. I know some people swear by them for any tank, and others think they are a waste of time and money. I had improvement in a rather good size reef after switching to RO, but found frequent water changes with minimally treated tap water on my freshwater aquariums work fine. A simple definition of the difference between RO Water and Distilled Water is here.
Glad to hear the other fish are fine, be prepared for the medicated tank to look like a rootbeer float. heh
I think that is the best advice in this thread. Frequent water changes. I hope you don’t forget about breeding. I think some of the problem about conflicting answers is the clash of “old school” and “new school.” Some things from way back when are still the best way to do things in my experience. Others, we’ve learned they have long term negative effects. Weeding through all the information and finding what works for you, is what we’ve all gone through. I’m still learning all the time, and get discouraged, too.
Cichlidot, you gave some excellent advice… I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it.
I got slammed for keeping bettas in 1 gallon containers to live in, not to breed in (if that’s what you thought, it wasn’t that clear). I was going to use a half-to-3/4ths filled 10 gallon tank for the breeding… I do have a 20 gallon tank, but I’m a little leery of having to make the male travel a long way retrieving and spitting fry. “… That’s it, Junior, you escaped and dropped to the ground one too many times! gulp”
the female looks much better since this morning, she was floating aimlessly and spasming/darting to the point of jumping at other times, but she’s seemed to improve gradually. Hopefully she’ll eat tomorrow.
Understood. Will take your advice and forego the salt for the fry tanks, especially with methylene blue on hand (why is so difficult to find?). Will probably use only a small pinch in adult tanks now…
Interesting… what would be a good treatment for ick? I’ve got Maracide and Coppersafe in my drawers–are those acceptable? (I try to be as conscientious as possible…)
Thank you! You learn something new everyday.
Thanks for the encouragement! I do appreciate it very much.
Well, I feel horrible. I felt okay with the new hospital tank–it was one of those “kits” because I wanted everything running ASAP for her… and, well, I moved my ailing betta in.
She got sucked towards the filter.
Agh.
I have a feeling that my “cures” are doing more harm to her than whatever disease she’s having.
Well, Maracide contains malachite green. Some people will immediately tell you how horrible it is. Others will tell you the zinc free versions of medications containing malachite green are fine. Others swear by it. I’ll tell you what I think, and then provide a link that might straighten out some of the confusion. I like the stuff. It’s old school (so is methylene blue), and I’ve really not seen anything that works better. Some fish are more sensitive to it though, particularly scaleless fish. There’s even brands with malachite green for scaleless fish. What I’ve noticed is that the same ingredients are in those products, only diluted. Here’s the link. Note in the link that malachite green often goes under a different name, a common one I’ve seen not listed in the link is Victoria Green.
The link does note that it is teratogenic, and the reason it is not as often used in food fish.
Of course not; I never said any such thing. Of course it’s possible to poison a betta; I just pointed out that the parameters being discussed in this thread don’t begin to approach such poisonous conditions.
Salt does not prevent ich by stimulating the slime coat; it weakens the protozoon that causes ich. Full strength marine water kills it outright.
Anabantoids evolved the ability to breathe air because they lived in stagnant hot water–the warmer the water, the less oxygen it holds. What this means is that most anabantoids, specifically Betta splendens, are more susceptible to chills than they are “picky” about water quality. There are of course parameters beyond which water quality becomes a factor, but most anabantoids tolerate a wider range of quality conditions than many other fish (specifically many cichlids).
Keep the hot stagnant water in mind when trying to make Bettas feel at home enough to breed: they prefer still, unfiltered water; and they do much better at F78 - F82.
Most bettas in a little bowl die of fungus, which lower temperatures can make them more susceptible to.
When I was breeding Bettas (B. splendens, B. imbellis, and B. macrostoma; mostly I specialized in African anabantoids like Ctenopoma spp. rather than Asians; the Asian species were kind of a side hobby), I had much greater success with hard water (lots of minerals, unprecipitated) and high temperatures.
One important thing: never do 100% water changes. You can change up to 25% every ten minutes if you want–even with chlorine, except with scaleless fish–
but changing more than that risks shocking the fish’s osmotic balance with its surrounding water. (Keep in mind that we’re made mostly of water, but we left the water millions of years ago. But first we had to evolve a self-contained system. Fish never left the water, so their system is less self-contained: they’re osmotically linked to the water they live in; any chemical change in the water results in an immediate change in the fish’s system, through their gill membranes. The smaller that change, the less the shock to the fish. Never 100%.)
Never used it, never heard of its being used for such things, so I don’t know for sure. I don’t know how unstable it is, like bleach, so I don’t know if residue would remain after rinsing. I do know that it’s toxic as is, and so would either have to break down or be removed. On the other hand, it’s my understanding that a common tool of high-end aquarists, the ozonizer, works by creating H[sub]2[/sub]O[sub]2[/sub] in a chamber, then breaking it back down to H[sub]2[/sub]O and O[sub]2[/sub] before returning it to the tank; but I don’t know the process by which that happens. I’d stick with the bleach: cheap, time tested, and totally rinsable, especially with dechlorinators.
Then I misunderstood, with your reference to water buffalo hoof prints.
I disagree with the first part. Since the mention of salt was not regarding the use as a dip, but as a preventative, I think it’s fair to assume she was referring to the stimulation of the slime coat. I don’t disagree with what comes after the semicolon. From here:
and a little further down
Rather than go point by point about what conditions I used breeding B. splendens (yes, I’ve also bred them), I’ll instead link to the IBC Member Sites. Lot’s of information there, and so far not a reference on how vastly important temperature is over water quality. I also see lot’s of references to filters or at least air stones and water changes.
Another easy way to help get rid of ich is to turn up the heater. The ich parasite’s life cycle is seriously diminished at about 85F. The main drawback is that the amount of oxygen that is dissolved in the water also decreases. But this is not as much of a problem with Bettas and the other labyrinth fish, since they are able to breathe atmoshperic oxygen.
Also, with many of the chemical ich treatments, particularly malachite green, the silicone sealant in your tank will be stained bluish green.
I’m happy to report that my ailing betta has done a 180 and was healthy again and gobbling up her food this morning. I’ll have to do some more research on the salt, but would it be an OK idea to skip the salt for the fry and add a little for the adults?
Yes. Unless you’re boiling well above sea level, you can almost always dispense with the salt until the fish is served, at which time a small dish alongside some lemon slices is sufficient, classy and healthy.
But that’s kind of a strange question for this thread isn’t it?
I got roundly slammed for keeping them in 1 gallon tanks on another board just now.
