Moving to Great Debates from GQ.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Sure, I use roads everyday, but they are always full of potholes, including one section on a state road that will literally tear off your suspension, so you have to go over the 10 feet of potholes as if it were a speed bump. Our schools are good in this town (although I paid $400 dollars yesterday to register two kids, and will be required to pay for all of the extra activities and have at least two fundraisers pushed on me) but in 50% of this county, the school are almost warzones. Our parks are okay, I guess, so I’ll give you that (even though each one has an entrance fee).
So, in this mish mash of state, Federal and county taxes, it seems that all the things they are doing, they are doing half-assed, if not outright badly.
It is correct that I am loathe to give any taxing agency any more money, since it seems that they are pissing it away on owl vomit studies and other assorted crap. For example, my county just recently went into an multi-year upheaval over property taxes. Now that it has calmed down (and my taxes went up), I read in the paper that our school district has approved spending $53K on sending the administrators to a “teaching retreat”. Now, $53K is a lot of bread for this small town, and I’m just thinking that I just paid $400 to register my kids - had that $53K not been spent, might the fees have been $395? And that extra $5 per school family spent here in town would have made a difference as well.
This is a good answer. It’s like someone asking to borrow your car because they just crashed theirs. The reason they’re asking for more is the same reason you shouldn’t trust them enough to give them more.
But how is this particular to the USA?
(Now that we’re in GD): Help me understand. The half-assed middle clearly isn’t working. So in one direction, you pay more taxes and suddenly they have money to fix the roads, incidentally hiring people to do it. In the other direction, you pay less taxes and… you save more money so you can pay for the car repairs you need navigating the third-world roads?
I’m not saying there isn’t waste, just that I don’t understand how paying less in taxes will solve the pothole problem.
Yes, it does vary by state, but it’s easier to get a tax increase at the state level than at the federal level. That can manifest itself as a property tax or sales tax increase. In more liberal states, it’s easier to get income tax increases.
But more importantly, at the local level, the easiest tax increase to get (in my experience) is a school bond that ups property taxes. This is not statewide, but can be county or even city/town. They are instituted as a ballot initiative, and where I live I have never seen one voted down.
Because many Americans are simple folk who can be convinced with simple concepts.
We do not pay too much tax. But if they were cut, there would be more money in your pocket. Who does not want that? Keep cutting them and I will have even more money in my pocket. When they are gone, I will be rich. Utopia has been reached.
At the rate of tax hikes we’ve had in the past 30 years, pretty soon we won’t have any taxes at all.
or we could give it all to the government and let them dictate how it’s spent.
So what’s the perfect tax rate? It’s a rhetorical question because it doesn’t address the real problem and that’s spending more than is taken in. If we gave the government 100% they’d spend 110%.
So are you saying that Americans are simpler than the folk of other Western countries? Or just that American system gives more weight to the ignorant masses?
It’s not. Taxes hikes are not loved in other countries. Neither are budgets that increase debt until the bubble bursts.
Well, first of all, no one is talking about decreasing taxes. They are talking about raising them. This is an important distinction that seems to be left out of these debates.
FWIW, I would support tax increases if I could some feeling that it wouldn’t be pissed away on teacher’s retreats and owl vomit studies.
It seems to me that if we could get rid of those poor spending habits, we could have nice roads. Instead of me spend more money to the state to get the damn road fixed, they could just use the money I’ve already sent, by moving it to road repairs and away from the mud mats emblazoned with the state seal.
Please tell me what percentage of the federal budget is spent on teacher’s retreats and owl vomit studies.
It was obviously a rhetorical statement. Are you under the impression that there isn’t government waste that could be corrected?
Are you under the impression that correcting government waste will eliminate the deficit?
I think there’s a good point here. Shagnasty and I would probably disagree on what programs are worth the cost. But I fully agree that it’s a bad idea to buy now and pay later.
If we were asked to pay the tax at the time we were spending the money, we’d put more thought into whether the program was worth the cost. But we’ve gotten into the habit (and both parties are guilty of this) of spending borrowed money. We get the program we want now and we will pay for it “someday” - so the costs seem minimal at the time.
But the costs seem so much larger later when it’s time to pay them. Who wants to pay for something we’ve already had? So we grumble and complain about paying our bills ad think it’s unfair that we have to pay now for the fun we had in the past.
Who said anything about the deficit? We’re talking about tax hikes. Stay on topic, please.
Yes we are simpler folk.
When happiness is rated in world industrial countries, the highest ones are the countries who have government run healthcare and solid social safety nets. Living a sickness away from bankruptcy is a bit unsettling.
We are cutting unemployment when we need it the most. We have people who once had middle class homes living in tent cities. One eighth of Americans get food assistance. Most Americans are living in terror of losing their jobs. Unemployment is far over the 9.1 reported. Most of us know people who have lost everything or have relatives who have. Many unemployed Americans have given up looking for jobs . Suicides are up. Foreclosures are up. It is ugly and getting uglier.
Tax hikes should be supported more than “cutting government waste” because they will be more effective at eliminating the deficit. All this blathering about waste when it is a pretty darn small but not minuscule part of the budget is what people say when they oppose tax increases.
“It’ll be just wasted” is a code word for “no tax increases at all!” because just like most people will never think they pay a fair share of tax, most people will never think that there is no government waste to cut. As a matter of fact those opinions are probably linked, because if you don’t benefit from a particular government program you’re more likely to think it totally useless and therefore a waste of your tax dollars which are therefore too high. But not raising taxes unless 100% of the population thinks all of the government dollars are well-spent is no way to run a nation.
I wonder if those who think that tax increases will always be wasted have come to believe that government was 100% efficient in the late 90s when we were running a surplus. In fact, the canard of “taxes go up, ALWAYS swallowed up by waste!” can be shown to be completely reversed in the late 90s-early 2000s. Taxes went down in the 2000s, followed by a huge increase in expenditures – a frivolous war and Medicare giveaways – although whether wasteful or not is up to debate, the reasons to think them so are as justified as many.
So one could point to the late 90s-early 2000s and equally say “hey, I don’t want my taxes to go DOWN – that’ll just mean governement will spend MORE!”
I would support tax hikes if they were dedicated to paying down the deficit exclusively. I think most anti-tax people would as well.