[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bouv *
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Dan Tana keeps trying to de-bunk our claims
Hang in there bouv, it’s almost over. It’s not that I’ve been “de-bunking”, but I still don’t see how that seat cushion gives you any better odds than parachuting. Lets face it, you’re basically going to be dog food at the end of either situation.
For what it’s worth, I’m boarding a trans-atlantic flight in the morning (sans chute)
That explains your trepidation, but it doesn’t explain why you doubt our reasoning or assurances.
Have a nice flight. Post when you get back, okay?
What airliner was it, back so many years ago, that clipped the bridge in DC, and landed in the Potomac? That one had people crawling around in the icy water. A horrible tragedy.
Where were you guys when that plane hit the bridge in DC? Some of those those people drowned/froze in the water. Maybe those little foam cushions helped some of them get to shore or stay afloat until rescue. Not sure what role they played. Then there was that amazing Ethiopoan airlines thing in the caribbean recently…
It’s obvious that none of you were able to stomach the movie Air Force One all the way through-- you must have walked out before the scene where they all went out with chutes. Uh-huh.
Really? The speed consideration is one thing but I think that you are wrong here. The last flight I was on was cruising at 29,000 ft. The altitude of Everest is 29,035 ft. and people have climed the mountain without oxygen. What is going to kill me jumping from an airplane at that altitude?
My guess would be that climbing a mountain is a rather gradual decrease in pressure, temperature, oxygen, etc. as you move up the mountain. You also have to be conditioned and trained in order to survive such a mountain climb. Oh, and another thing, very rarely on a mountain are you subjected to a 400+ mph wind gust 
Well if you weren’t wearing a parachute when you jumped… 
Actually, if I ever try skydiving, I want the first jump to be without a parachute. I don’t want to take the chance that it won’t open.
I’ve just thought of another scenario that we’ve been discussing. Some of you have noted that opening a planes door at that altitude would be impossible. Am I wrong or are planes pressurized? Meaning outward force on the doors that swing outward. Rather simple once unlocked. Follow me?
A couple months ago I read “Into Thin Air,” a book about a climb of Mount Everest (fascinating read). Anyway, IIRC, the author made the claim that if you took a normal, unacclimatized person from sea level, and dumped them on the top of Everest, they would die very quickly from the low pressure.
As far as parachutes on planes go, I agree that it may not be practical given the way most plane accidents take place. I remember about 10 or 15 years ago, there was an incident where the side of a jet blew open and 6-10 passengers were “sucked out.” I suppose that if you were wearing a parachute, knew how to use it, didn’t die from hypothermia, didn’t die from lack of pressure, had a flotation device, and were found promptly, then a parachute may have been helpful in such a situation.
What about ejector seats? I always thought it would be funny (in a morbid sort of way) if the pilots of commercial airlines had ejector seats.
I honestly can’t believe the attitutude of you guys on this topic.
Dan, I am with you all the way (down, floating to the rest of my now longer life!). All this talk about standard parachutes not woking is way off the subject. Look, nobody ever survives a ditching airliner. In the same vein as ,“If we can send a man to the moon…”, is it really so hard to believe that parachutes can’t be made to BE the back of the seat. Instead of buckling your seat belt just slip on the shoulder harnesses, which would be safer anyway, and you would already be wearing your 'chute.
As for the guy who would want to step out for a smoke, it would be simple enough to rig a system so that only a designated person (the pilot?) could release the 'chutes from the frames.
And the altitude problem. If a plane is crusing at 29,000 ft the desicion to bail isn’t going to be made until after the plane is clearly going down.Making jumping a much safer affair because you would be much closer to the ground.
I have a backpacking raft that wieghs almost nothing and packs to about the same. Build it into the 'chute and rig it to auto inflate when then 'chute auto opens.
Yes there are still some hurdles to be overcome but let’s get on the side of fixing the problem instead on shooting down Dan who’s main point is rock solid - you are no worse off with a parachute than you are with a seat cushion. At least on trans-atlantic flights for instance.
I want the option, and I’ll sign a waiver to get it!
Finally, yes we do know what happened to D.B.Cooper. the FBI agent on the case wrote a small, dry little tome that explains it all. But no one wants to hear the truth, the mystery is much more fun.
warmgun, the cost is as important as the weight. Imagine trying to retrofit the entire U.S. airline flight with the system you describe. It would cost hundreds of millions not including the lost revenue due to the down time. Plus the time and expense of inspecting all of those chutes and lines. All of this for an almost incosequential benefit. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
Oh, silly me, I keep forgetting money is worth more than lives.
I was speaking of new, better designed planes as they are put in to replace the retiring ones.
Follow you?
Not without a chute dude.
But that’s only in my measly little world.
Or at least Jimi sez.
The pilot has a gun. I kid you not. Anyone trying to open the door would be shot.
warmgun raises some points. Let’s look at them:
Why not? They do it in military combat aircraft! Well, there are a couple of obstacles. First, military pilots are trained to cope with the enormous forces that occur during an ejection. In an actual ejection, many pilots are injured. This includes broken bones. Remember that A-6 driver (or was it the bombardier?) who punched out during Desert Storm? People said he was pummeled by the Iraqis who captured him. I’m pretty sure I read that his injuries were caused by the ejection. Seats have to be designed to prevent the legs from flailing. On the A-7E seat I have in my room, this is managed by high walls on the structure. On the Martin-Baker seat, the occupant wears straps on his legs. The straps are attached to a mechanism in the seat that draws them in during an ejection. Would people wear these? Also, pilots are taught to brace themselves for ejection, drawing their legs in, sitting upright so the spine won’t snap, head against the headrest, etc. And they practice it! Anyone who looks down at the wrong time would have his neck snapped!
What? The other people in the seat are going to want to wait for him? (Of course smoking is prohibited on U.S. flights, but he could have gone to the head.)
Modern ejection seats are designed for “zero-zero” operation. That means they can be used on the ground while the aircraft isn’t moving. But what about “the plane clearly going down”? How is the guy in the head even going to get back to his seat, let alone strap in?
What about the other technical problems? Let’s start with how the seat ejects. Ejection seats hold one person. They are on rails. A three-seat airline row would have a huge twisting moment on its rails if the rockets don’t fire exactly at the same time and with exactly the same thrust. Shoot 'em out the side? I mentioned in another thread that the seat occupants would be subjected to unacceptable sideways loads. But it would make a cool effect for a movie. Then there’s the structure of the aircraft itself. Military aircraft jettison their canopies before ejection. Some seats (like my A-7E seat) have canopy penetrators to break through the canopy in case it doesn’t jettison. Oh, and the pilots wear helmets to protect their heads in an ejection, with visors to help protect them from the wind blast. What part of the aircraft would jettison in an ejection? Hatches? The structure would be too heavy if a couple hatches had to be built. How about jettisoning the whole upper half of the fuselage? Would it come off cleanly? If the plane is spiraling out of control? I’d be surprised if there weren’t some decapitations. Just give people individual parachutes? How would you get them out? Panicky people who are standing in an open door (let’s assume explosive bolts to jettison the doors) would plug up the bottlenecks. Remember, many people are apprehensive about just getting on an aircraft. Now you want them to jump out?
But the big thing is training. Assuming the technical difficulties could be handled (and it’s unlikely they could), would every person who flies undergo the intensive training (both physical and mental) they would require?
Aircraft accidents are extremely rare. And fatal accidents are more rare. Do a search on the message boards for “parachutes” and there will be several threads that deal with the subject, including some stats that I posted from the AOPA page. There’s really no need to have parachutes on transport aircraft.
That’s, “Foot - Prince” refering to…oh, nevermind.
I’m trying to imagine a scenario in which parachuting from a stricken plane would even be an option. I can’t think of any.
Airliners don’t get shot down like B-17’s and go tumbling out of the sky while the 10 crew members struggle to escape (and occasionally all did). I don’t have any numbers, but the vast majority of airline crashes occur either on or immediately after takeoff, or in the last minute or so before landing. In straight and level flight, I think it would take several minutes to get people strapped in & filing out the door. Some of you may react “No way it’s that long,” but I’m sticking to my guns on this unless somebody demonstrates otherwise. Does anybody know where we can find evacuation times for when planes are on the ground, and 6 or 7 different exits are being used? We’ve sort of been talking about only using one for paradrops.
The recent Concorde crash: nobody had time to do anything, and they were far too low.
The ValuJet nosedive: I doubt very seriously that anybody would have been able to make their way to the exit when the plane was diving into the ground.
Delta 191, back in the 80’s: wind shear slammed the plane into the ground in the final mile or so of the approach. Like the Concorde, too low and too quick.
TWA 800: they were certainly high enough, but I’m skeptical that those who survived the explosion conscious wouuld have been able to make their way to either an exit or a hole in the fuselage in time.
I’m sorry, I just don’t see the point. It would be a fantastic expense with minimal benefit. And yes, warmgun, money matters. “Bean counting,” as distasteful as it seems, is a necessary evil for any company that wants to stay in business. People are only willing to pay so much to fly, and they’re complaining about high costs now.
I think a more reasonable step would be requiring all passengers and crew to wear a crash helmet on takeoff and landing. Good luck getting that proposal to fly.
Whoa, whoa, whoa… Who said anything about EJECTION seats, Johnny?
I’m thinking more about wearing a chute while you are on the plane (as the back of your seat), a voice comes over the P.A., “This is the pilot speaking, dicking is imminent. Those so inclined amble to the rear of the plane and de-bark out the (special) door provided. The remainder may remain on board and die in a hellish fireball. Thank you.”
Regardless, that fucking placibo cushion will not save your ass. And I’ll take broken ANYTHING over death anyday. The point is, no matter what the odds, if I’m on a plane that’s plummeting out of the sky, I want a parachute option. Let me worry about my broken ankles.
Uhh…sorry, I meant “ditching” .