Yet another "Bush's 7 minutes" thread

[RTFirefly]

@Liberal

Oh, don’t stop there, RT. Bush was just after some oil money from the get-go, right?

If you say so, Lib. :rolleyes:

But I’ll take that bit of BS as an admission that you had no idea what you were talking about, and have no actual rebuttal to offer.

[World_Eater]

@MaxTheVool

Most of what guys? People who disagree with you? What, because it took me this long to reply to your previous post? What the hell are you talking about?

Nothing to do with you, I was responding to Zoe’s post, that Bush let us down.

So you claim that the moment the second tower hit, someone made the (very reasonable) decision to get Bush out of there as quickly as possible, but it took 7 minutes for the Secret Service to get their acts together and hustle him out of the building? First thing… cite?

You ask me for a cite and then follow that with…

That doesn’t seem to align with any of the more-or-less first hand accounts, although everything is a bit hazy, and my reading of it is that basically no one took charge.

Secondly, are you nuts? I abso-fucking-lutely guarantee you that the Secret Service is ALWAYS ready to get the president out of where he is and to somewhere safe on a moment’s notice. You can bet that if someone had come dashing into the classroom with a gaping lung wound yelling “there’s five guys out there with guns” and then keeled over dead, they sure as hell wouldn’t have taken 7 minutes to get Bush out of the room.

And what happens if flying saucers invade? What does a silly hypothetical have to do with anything?

However, there was not a standard SS procedure for what to do when there’s an apparent terrorist attack on other parts of the country, thus, no one took command of the situation and got Bush out of there faster.

Ummm, yes, there wasn’t a standard security procedure for “Jet planes deliberately flown into buildings 3,000 miles away from where the Pres currently is”

Damn those unprepared buffons!

Anyhow, even if it DID take seven minutes to get AF1 warmed up, Bush could have been discussing the situation and preparing to make decisions, as outlined in (3)(b) of the OP.

Preparing to make decisions? What the hell are you talking about? Maybe his advisors were “bouncing” ideas of each other in order to more efficiently offer a list of options to the Pres? It was seven minutes man. I probably hate Bush more then anyone else, and even find this whole argument to be stupid.

[World_Eater]

@Equipoise

World Eater, please indulge my curiousity. What were you doing that morning when you heard? How did you hear about it? What did you do immediately after hearing about it?

1. Got off the subway (it looked like a thunderstorm was coming, all dark and all), and watched a huge jet plane fly (directly over me) the lowest I’ve ever seen over manhatten. I assumed it was about 500 feet of the ground, was fucked up, and was going to crash somewhere in midtown.

2. Watched the plane fly over, and go out of sight (big building in my way) and then about 3 seconds later heard an earth shaking explosion. I then realized there was no thunderstorm, the sky was filled with black smoke and people were running for their lives and crying.

3. I continued walking 3 blocks over to my office, and on the elevator and told a guy I think a plane just went down. He told me I was mistaken and then a plane had gone down about 20 minutes ago, not a minutes ago.

4. Upon getting up to my 20th floor office I looked out the window and saw the WTC (5 blocks away) burning. I realized the plane that flew over me was the second one.

5. I tried not to watch the people jumping, tried to surf the net for info, and answered people calling me to see if I was ok.

6. Crossed my fingers as the first tower went down, (if it had fallen like a tree I wouldn’t be posting) and watched a huge black cloud (think total recall) rush towards our windows.

7. We were told to remain in our building, and I had to stay at my job anyway (we do financial stuff and had to keep running), although I received about 50 frantic calls from friends and family telling me to screw my job and get out of there.

8. Crossed my fingers as the second tower went down, (if it had fallen like a tree I wouldn’t be posting) and watched a huge black cloud (think total recall) rush towards our windows.

9. Watched a few more buildings collapse as the day went on, and listened to frantic reports about gas lines and all of lower manhatten about to explode, etc, etc

10. Called it a day at 5, walked through the ashes to the Brooklyn Bridge, and walked home to Brooklyn.

[World_Eater]

@Otto

SPOOFE: hopeless. Check.
World Eater: hopeless. Check.

Otto: Lack of reading comprehesion, check. Totally unaware of my posting history, check.

Why is it that adults who otherwise are apparently rational, when presented with the concept of “Bush could have excused himself and walked calmly out of the room,” are unable to receive that concept in a way other than “Bush should have run screaming from the room leaving panicked children in his wake”?

Why is it that adults who otherwise are apparently rational, when presented with the concept of “It took Bush’s aids a few minutes to make sense of what was going on,” are unable to receive that concept in a way other than “Bush had all the time in the world, what was the rush? He should have hung around for a few hours and shot the shit with the kids”?

But sure as night follows day, multiple people respond to it yet again with the 100% phony bullshit “if he’d run from the room in a panic you’d yell about it then too!”

When the did I ever say anything remotely like this? Quote it or stuff it.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Back atcha.

[Gatopescado]

@MaxTheVool

I apologize for starting up a new thread on this topic, but the most recent ones have all been big trainwrecks, most have been other topics hijacked…

Just like this one now! One more for the pile!

[Otto]

@World Eater

When the did I ever say anything remotely like this? Quote it or stuff it.

I had to do some intensive research here, really had to dig into the posting history and do some fancy work, but I found this post which I think fits the bill:

Bingo. As I’ve said before was he supposed to jump up, go DEAR GOD, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo…, and dive out the window?

[Liberal]

@RTFirefly

If you say so, Lib. :rolleyes:

But I’ll take that bit of BS as an admission that you had no idea what you were talking about, and have no actual rebuttal to offer.

Why should I rebut you when you’ve made my case for me? There are many leftists who simply lack the personal discipline ever to refrain from bashing Bush over trivial and irrelevant things. I suspect that, for many of you, it is little more than a pathetic game of spite — they did it to Clinton, so now you’re doing it to Bush. You in particular have started some really petty threads about piddly shit, including one that you proudly labelled as such, and designated as a place to bash Bush for things that didn’t warrant their own pittings. In other words, your hatred is so irrational that you lacked even the basic self-control to confine pitworthy things to the Pit.

[World_Eater]

@Otto

I had to do some intensive research here, really had to dig into the posting history and do some fancy work, but I found this post which I think fits the bill:

Bolding mine

But sure as night follows day, multiple people respond to it yet again with the 100% phony bullshit "if he’d run from the room in a panic you’d yell about it then too!"

This implies that he’s damned if he stays, and damned if he sprints out the room, people will bitch either way. I asked to point out where I ever stated that people would bitch no matter what he did.

It looks like your chocolate is in my peanut butter, or vise versa.

[Otto]

Please don’t insult people by pretending that you didn’t agree with the do nothing/run screaming false dichotomy.

[World_Eater]

@Otto

Please don’t insult people by pretending that you didn’t agree with the do nothing/run screaming false dichotomy.

I think we crossed a few wires, I really don’t know what you’re talking about.

[MaxTheVool]

@Liberal

It is in fact the very focus of criticism from quite many leftists who, not understanding the nature of the combat operations in Afghanistan, have made the bizarre claim that Bush fucked up the Afghan front by invading Iraq — that he somehow abandoned one for the other, or depleted one to enrich the other. But as General Franks has explained, Afghan operations have always been mainly special forces operations designed to recruit Afghans themselves, first to topple the Taliban and then to search for Bin Laden. As Franks has said, the lessons from the Russian experience in the heavily mountainous nation of warlords and tribes dictated what ought to be the proper course of action. There was no massive military invasion of Afghanistan, but only a military infiltration. Nevertheless, leftists have found fault with Bush, saying that he botched Afghanistan by invading Iraq when in fact he did not.

(a) First of all, I only brought up the decision to go to war in Afghanistan as an example of something that has, for the most part, not been criticized. Note, the decision to go to war in Afghanistan as an example of something that has, for the most part, not been criticized.

(b) As for the war in Afghanistan itself, and note that this is completely a hijack as it in no way relates to the OP, but is an interesting side argument, I am hardly an authority on matters military, but it seems to me that the proof is in the pudding, in that OBL and many of his top lieutenants were not captured, and Afghanistan is not, as of right now, a functioning democracy in any meaningful sense of the word. I don’t know how much of that is due to the distraction of invading Iraq, but I find it hard to believe that engaging in another entire war could fail to hurt the war effort in Afghanistan.

[MaxTheVool]

@MilfMan

Hi All, been lurking, but couldn’t leave the finges from one tinsy little pointling:

If this has been addressed in another place, sorry, but here it goes:

According to this place The W was on his way to the school when he found out about the first crash (crash, mind… Hijacking was not known at the time).
The Pres., last I checked, doesn’t get called into action for plane crashes. So, 08:46 is the first plane. W was informed that a plane has crashed in NY sometime between 08:46 and shortly before 09:00. W goes to the school and carries on because there has been a plane crash, not because the US was under attack. Due to some comm trouble between the tower and the various planes and NORAD, noone outside of the Boston Flight Control Tower was informed of a potential hijacking from 08:13 when FL 11 was presumed taken until at least 08:30.
Shortly after 09:00 W recieves the Info that a second plane had crashed.
Now unless W had a little red phone that contacts all aircraft over US Air space, I don’t really see what he personally could have done except get off camera.
And to those suggestions of shooting down the planes, do you have any Idea how populated the eastern seaboard of the US is? FL 93 that went down in PA was the only one that wouldn’t have laid waste to large streches of suburbia if shot by hellfire / fox Air to Air missiles.

See (3)(b) of the OP, which addresses your questions. Or at least, it claims that your questions are basically irrelevant.

[MaxTheVool]

@World Eater

Ummm, yes, there wasn’t a standard security procedure for “Jet planes deliberately flown into buildings 3,000 miles away from where the Pres currently is”

Damn those unprepared buffons!

I think you’re misunderstanding me. I’m not criticizing the Secret Service for not being prepared. (Or at least, that’s not my primary point). Rather, I’m speculating as to why, exactly, Bush was in the school for those 7 minutes at all.

There are several possibilities:
(1) The Secret Service thought that the school was actually the safest possible place for him to be
(2) The Secret Service wanted to move him somewhere safer, and it took 7 (or however many) minutes to figure out the logistics for that move
(3) Due to the completely extraordinary and unprecedented circumstances, no one really took control of the situation and made a command decision to get the president somewhere safer. Had someone done so, he could have been moved more-or-less instantly

In another thread on this topic, Hentor The Barbarian dug up the appropriate passage from the 9/11 commision report:

The President remained in the classroom for another five to seven minutes, while the children continued reading. He then returned to a holding room shortly before 9:15, where he was briefed by staff and saw television coverage. He next spoke toVice President Cheney,Dr.Rice,NewYork Governor George Pataki, and FBI Director Robert Mueller. He decided to make a brief statement from the school before leaving for the airport. The Secret Service told us they were anxious to move the President to a safer location, but did not think it imperative for him to run out the door.

I lean towards option (3) which seems to be at least vaguely in line with the 9/11 commision. You seemed to be endorsing (2) in your post about it taking 7 minutes to warm up AF1, which is what I was responding to.

Preparing to make decisions? What the hell are you talking about? Maybe his advisors were “bouncing” ideas of each other in order to more efficiently offer a list of options to the Pres? It was seven minutes man. I probably hate Bush more then anyone else, and even find this whole argument to be stupid.

Huh. Well, I guess we just disagree then. In my opinion, if a leader is told “a phenomenally important crisis is unfolding. Details are sketchy. We have some information. We’ll continue to get more information” he can start to do useful stuff immediately, namely, starting to discuss the situation, along with whatever informaiton is currently available, with his advisors. Even if it turns out, after discussion, that nothing useful can be done immediately, he’ll be more prepared to process further information, and make decisions based on that information, as it comes available.

[MaxTheVool]

@Liberal

Why should I rebut you when you’ve made my case for me? There are many leftists who simply lack the personal discipline ever to refrain from bashing Bush over trivial and irrelevant things. I suspect that, for many of you,

OK, this is exactly the kind of post that really gets my dander up.

This could easily be read as “many leftists” meaning, say, 5,000 in the whole US. Which is “many” in that 5,000 is a large number. And “many of you” meaning a handful of the most strident and single-minded liberal dopers. Which I can’t honestly disagree with.
Or it could be read as “many leftists” meaning, well, 30 or 40% of all liberals, and “many of you” meaning “30 or 40% of liberal dopers”.

To me, that’s an important distinction, and one which is definitely NOT possible to infer from the tone of your post, or other similarly snarky posts about vague groups of stupid leftists.
So, which is it? Approximately how many of these braindead nutsos are you claiming exist?

[Otto]

@World Eater

I think we crossed a few wires, I really don’t know what you’re talking about.

If that’s your lie, hon, you keep on workin’ it.

[Squink]

@Liberal

There are many leftists who simply lack the personal discipline ever to refrain from bashing Bush over trivial and irrelevant things.

I look forward to a time 10, maybe 20 years in the future, when that lame alliteration “Bush Bashing” is reduced to a vulgar synonym for “Balling.” The phrase has already gotten old and tired. Do you think you could give it a rest; maybe use “Dubya Stompin” or “George Baiting” once in a while?

[World_Eater]

@Otto

If that’s your lie, hon, you keep on workin’ it.

Or if you would like to clarify what you’re talking about, I’d be happy to respond.

[BJMoose]

Morning, all. Hope a good night’s sleep has made everyone chipper and friendly.

The five-to-seven minutes Fearless Leader remained in the classroom is endlessly debatable. He should have gotten out of Dodge the moment Card said “America is under attack,” but it’s not a big enough deal that we should sit here slinging hamster shit at each other.

However:

I find it interesting that the folks supporting Bush have had no comment on what I pointed out yesterday - that Bush then spent fifteen minutes putting together a statement for the press. I don’t know about you guys, but if I were president of a country larger than a 4-H club, and I were told said country was in the middle of a vicious attack of unknown scope, talking to the press pool would be way, way down on my list of things to do.

[pervert]

@BJMoose

I find it interesting that the folks supporting Bush have had no comment on what I pointed out yesterday - that Bush then spent fifteen minutes putting together a statement for the press. I don’t know about you guys, but if I were president of a country larger than a 4-H club, and I were told said country was in the middle of a vicious attack of unknown scope, talking to the press pool would be way, way down on my list of things to do.

Then you would make a pretty poor president indeed. President is not firman, firechief, soldier, or even general. The nation was under attack. President Bush wanted to speak to the nation to assure us that people were responding to the attacks, and that America was not about to fall. He wrote the remarks while his aides were preparing to leave.

As in “Between 9:15 and 9:30, the staff was busy arranging a return to Washington, while the President consulted his senior advisers about his remarks.”. He had already talked to his security people, and wanted to convey what he could as soon as possible to the American people. While I respect your opinion that the President should have grabbed a fire hose, or something, I think it is silly.

[MaxTheVool]

@pervert

Then you would make a pretty poor president indeed. President is not firman, firechief, soldier, or even general. The nation was under attack. President Bush wanted to speak to the nation to assure us that people were responding to the attacks, and that America was not about to fall. He wrote the remarks while his aides were preparing to leave.

As in “Between 9:15 and 9:30, the staff was busy arranging a return to Washington, while the President consulted his senior advisers about his remarks.”. He had already talked to his security people, and wanted to convey what he could as soon as possible to the American people. While I respect your opinion that the President should have grabbed a fire hose, or something, I think it is silly.

First of all, oh come ON, no one is saying that the president should have grabbed a fire hose, or anything approaching that.

Secondly, I somewhat agree with you. One of the responsibilties Bush had as a leader was to be visibily leaderly, which includes making speeches and being reassuring and so forth. However, that’s only one of the things he should have been doing, and a rather minor one at that.

His priorities, imho, should have looked like this:
(1) Keep self safe
(2) Discuss actual ongoing national crisis with advisors, see if any presidential decisions need to be made, keep self updated

(huge gap)

(3) Prepare speech for nation

(huge gap)

(4) Keep reading book to kids so as not to cause them to panic