I don’t believe that Fred Phelps represents even the most hardcore Christian fundamentalists. He’s just a troll and an attention whore. He’s no more a Christian than I am.
Santorum, on the other hand (and he’s only one of many in Congress) literally does represent that majority of people in his state who elected him.
Point #1
When the OP says “Christian Right”, I assume he/she is speaking of that subset of Christians that appear to want to control our lives w.r.t. to activities mentioned in this thread.
Clearly Christians are not a homogenous group, and I don’t think the OP would have qualified “Christian” with “Right” if he/she didn’t understand that.
Point #2
Sure it’s off topic but that kind of statement just cracks me up and I can’t help but say something. I guess it’s related to this topic in the sense that people who think like that are the same people that think they know how I should live my life (as in their truth is the one truth that can be known) and some of them are comfortable legislating it.
JXJohns, I’m a devout Episcopalian Christian who lives in Pennsylvania and is, at least theoretically, represented by Senator Rick Santorum, even though I’ve never voted for him and have no intention of doing so.
The Bible clearly and unambiguously condemns adultery, starting with the 10 Commandments, yet I gather adultery is pretty common in soap operas (I don’t watch the things) and other television shows, and widely overlooked in society as a whole. Indeed, a few weeks ago, Senator Santorum defended a conservative Pennsylvania Congressman who’d been caught in an adulterous affair with a woman half his age. Here’s a cite. I’ve been discussing religion on-line for nearly five years now, and I’ve found that conservative Christians’ attitudes toward adultery and divorce are very different from their attitudes towards homosexuality. Indeed, a former poster here who was one of our harshest critics of homosexuality and believed all homosexuals were going to suffer in hell for all eternity had been married 3 times. I’m single, straight, and have never been married. One of my oldest, dearest, most trusted friends is gay and has been with his partner for over a decade. I don’t know of any marriage which has been damaged by homosexuality; I’ve seen a few destroyed by adultery.
I’m a devout Christian, and have been all my life. My relationship with Jesus is the most important thing in my life, and it has saved my life. Nevertheless, because I’m liberal in my views, because I focus on acceptance and mercy, rather than judgement and because I haven’t undergone a classical Road-To-Damascus type of experience, conservative Christians have questioned my degree of committment.
I don’t want my niece and nephew to be taught Creationism in science class, although I’d love to see them study not only their own Catholic faith, but others as well. I am nervous about the role the Religious Right seems to be trying to want to play in this country. I don’t want birth control made illegal or inaccessible, especially when questionable science is behind it. (There isn’t any evidence that birth control pills or Depo-Provera or other hormonal forms of birth control prevent fertilized eggs from implanting.) No one is going to question my right to go down to my church this morning and worship as I choose. No one is going to call me immoral, a sinner, or evil for doing so. I have friends in the local pagan community. They don’t have that privilege. Church picnics in local parks don’t draw protestors. Pagan Days in local parks have. As I’ve said, some of these people are friends of mine, and one reason they aren’t Christian; one reason some of them are downright hostile to Christians is because of the actions of we Christians, ourselves. I’ve been an outsider and an outcast. The reason I’m hard-core Christians is an Episcopal Church in a small town took me in and made me feel welcome, questioning mind, rebellious spirit and all. I wasn’t welcome in the local Catholic church; I got beat up by some of the kids who went there. A good friend of mine was made fun of routinely at the local Methodist church she attended. She came through faith intact, bless her heart (in an Anglo-American sense, not a Southern sense!)
I understand the need for safety and security, for knowing that there is Right and there is Wrong and that you are safely and securely on the side of what is Right. One of those pagan friends I mentioned used to be a fundamentalist Christian, and he’s given me a lot of insight into their beliefs. I understand wanting desperately to believe that one is adhering firmly to The One True Way in an increasingly immoral decaying world, and I may be a bit guilty of that myself. I’m actually quite conservative on sexual matters. I even used to believe in no sex outside of marriage until the wonderful man I was engaged to and to whom I’d sworn vows to God which I intended to keop until death did us part ended our engagement. I also know that I’m a highly ideosyncratic, downright weird person and I may be wrong. God, for whatever reason, hasn’t chosen to give me the absolute certainty that some of my conservative brothers and sisters seem to have. I assume He’s got other things in mind for me.
I worship, no, I serve God not out of a fear of being condemned to eternal torment if I don’t, but out of love for the mercy He’s shown me, a person who was raised to believe she deserves nothing. I could be wrong about my beliefs; in that case, I’ll accept my punishment, if any, as due consequences of honest actions. I don’t spend much time thinking about the ultimate fate of my soul, though, because there’s not much I can do about it other than what I have been doing. Instead, I choose to focus on what I can do here.
I’ve a feeling I’ve drifted far from the OP. My apologies. Right now, what I can do here is fix breakfast!
Respectfully,
CJ
You do not possess sufficient openings.
As a guy who works closely with the youth in my church, I have to tell you, sex ed. is not center stage.
The kids I teach come from a broad background. Abusive parents, absent parents, parents that punish for B’s on a report card, loving parents and both safe and dangerous homes.
My goal is to give them a Christian framework in which to be a kid. I want them to know that they are loved by God, by me, by our church and by each other. I also expect them to love God with all of their soul, spirit, mind and strength, and I expect them to love their neighbors as they love themselves. This means their gay neighbors, their hispanic neighbors, their neighbors in prison, their neighbors in poverty and even their neighbors who will never love them back. That’s it. That is the framework in which I teach my ministry.
There is a girl in my youth group (let’s call her Sandy) who came to me at a retreat and asked if she could confide some things to me. She just turned 15 and has been having sex with a lot of guys. She said none of them love her and she knows now she was just used by them all. The sex that made her feel good actually left her feeling abandoned and dirty.
After a little more talking she told me that she had not seen her dad since she was 9. It was obvious that she wanted male attention and love. Should I have counseled her to make sure she uses a condom? Hardly. I told her that she was precious and that some day there would be a guy who loved her with all his heart. Sex would be one way he would show that. I told her that the best place for this to happen is within marriage.
Do I think she will wait until marriage? I doubt it. I am sure there will be a few walks on the wild side before she is married. But hopefully she will wait until she is emotionally better prepared, and sex will be shared with someone who at least cares for her. I do put marriage as the Christian framework in which sex belongs, but I don’t beat them up if they don’t live up to that. I also tell them that I did not live up to it so they know I am not going to judge them.
As far as gay sex, I do not have a problem with gay marriage. Let 'em get married. (unfortunately I don’t have a THING to wear!) Absent the availability of gay marriage, I think gay people should have sex within monogomous, caring relationships. But if they don’t, I love them anyway. It really isn’t my problem.
Hetero adults having sex? :eek: Say it ain’t so! If they do, its up to them. How did I get involved?
Maybe if I picketed in protest of gay marriage and railed against the sins of premarital sex I could get on TV and get a little coverage. But I am content to love my youth as they are, offer them guidance to love others and just make it day to day in obscurity.
That was lovely. Thank you for sharing!
Again, you are being prejudiced in the truest sense of the word. Live your life as you want. I don’t want any legislation that stops that unless it endangers others or infringes on their rights.
I don’t care if you have a passion for small, hairless Latvian men and between mad bouts of butt-love you carve pornographic images out of Crisco. If then you bow in worship to Sarah the Goddess of Popsicles and then particiapte in partner swapping rituals, I know that God loves you and He wants me to love you too.
I agree with you on this point. I mourn the loss of God’s femininity. I do think that mainstream church is on the brink of rediscovering it. Well maybe not on the brink, but there a many of us who are comfortable with a Mother God concept and who understand that the loving, nurturing side of God is decidedly feminine.
Cite? I am interested in hearing about this administrations plans to stomp out porn. I am also interested in hearing how they plan to make it more important than the war on terror.
The bible has surprisingly little to say about homosexuality. It doesn’t even make the top 10. Apparently it is worse to play football on Sunday than to be gay. I was talking with a minister the other day who told me that homosexuality is mentioned twice in the bible, but the requirement to help the poor is menitioned hundreds of times.
I believe most religious people are sincere, but often times the bible is used to justify what ever position a person already holds.
Why “Hardly”? it seems crystal clear to me that if anyone needs to understand how and how important it is to protect herself from pregnancy and disease, it’s a girl who is lost and looking for love so she gives herself away to anyone who asks!
Do I think it’s the ONLY counsel she should receive? Absolutely not! This girl needs all kinds of help, and her bahvior with these boys certainly shouldn’t be treated lightly or encouraged as positive. She needs to learn how to love herself enough to make her sexual decisions from a healthy place, not a desperate and self-loathing one. (Psst: it is entirely possible to learn to love oneself, honor ones precious unique nature, and choose and experience sexual relationships outside marriage. Just FYI.)
But the fact remains that she IS sexually active, she is actually promiscuous, and at extraordinarily high risk for something horrible and irreversible happening. Your loving and supportive chats with her are swell, but if she does not immediately become and remain celibate (and statistically speaking, she is almost * guaranteed * NOT to do that) you have done absolutely nothing to help her protect herself from possibly fatal consequences. You should be ashamed of yourself for blowing such an opportunity. And if you find that you are so inarticulate or unimaginative that you cannot figure out an effective way to simultaneously discourage promiscuous self-destructive sexual acting out while encouraging self-protection when any kind of sex at all continues to occur, then find someone who is and get them to teach you how. It’s really not that complicated.
** Seige: ** you sound like a Christian that walks the talk, and that’s a Christian I always respect. I am happy for you that you have found something that works in your life and uplifts you.
Not to mention the fact that “creators” are universally female - it’s truly bizarre that THE Creator would EVER be thought of as male.
ya
New Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said in a written statement the DOJ “places a premium on the First Amendment right to free speech, but certain activities do not fall within those protections, such as selling or distributing obscene materials. The Department of Justice remains strongly committed to the investigation and prosecution of adult obscenity cases.”
And on and on. Google away. (And I didn’t say they “plan” to make it more important than the war on terror, but if this is true:
You tell me? Of course they would never SAY it was more important, but actions speak louder, as they say.
Cool. Then I’m not talking about you and you don’t have to continue feeling picked on.
STOID:
I completely agree with you here. During our conversation she told me she was using protection, and I told her that was a Good Thing. I am aware that you can be healthy and sexual outside of marriage, but that was hardly the message to be giving a 15 year old girl at that moment.
Wow. That is all I can say. You see, none of this was on the news so you could not be aware of how things have eveolved for her. I did not provide a complete rendering of her experiences, but you assumed to know how it all went down. It’s really much better than you may think…
Actually she is NOT promiscuous anymore. She is not cutting herself anymore. She is not drinking or smoking pot anymore. She has not been hospitalized for an overdose since that talk. In fact, she has found a loving home in our youth group. I feel that I have done things that have helped her protect herself from a bevy of fatal consequences. I have a hard time feeling ashamed of myself when she comes to church and hugs me, or she calls me for a ride so she can help feed the homeless in our downtown, or when she tell others how she DID learn to love herself again and is getting back into school (which she had quit) in 2 weeks.
I guess I was articulate and and imaginative enough to help her this far. No doubt I could learn a thing or two from others, and I do every day. I agree that it is not complicated, but in the spirit of the OP, we never judged her or oppressed her or looked down on her. We just loved her.
Seems to be working pretty well so far! 
FYI This is a link to a “Christian Sex” message board.
Maybe you should get coverage for doing exactly the opposite and being one of the few reasonable persons you never see on television.
What makes you think I am one of few?
I am surprised by your statement that I am being prejudiced. I would be interested in an explanation as to why you think that.
If it’s because I made the point that, like the OP says, there appears to be a subset of Christians that want to control portions of our lives, I think the evidence is quite clear on that point. If you don’t think the evidence is clear I will be happy to gather some cites.
If it’s because of my response to the statement about Christians trying to save our lives, I would say 2 things:
I assumed the “their” in the “save their lives” indicated the non-Christians of the world, but after re-reading it, it might have meant saving their own life, not trying to save someone elses. If that is the case, then please ignore that portion of my post, I made a mistake.
If, on the other hand, my interpretation of the wording was correct, then I would ask, “How is that prejudiced?” It’s not a pre-judging based on my own personal bias, it’s a conclusion I reach over and over again through logic. The conclusion being that we have no current method of identifying which of the 6 billion world views currently in existence on this planet is the “correct” one.
You said that Christians who are just trying to live their life are the same people that think they know how I should live my life. That is a prejudiced statement against Christians. But it is no big deal. Let’s not get hung up on it. You probably did not mean it the way I am taking it anyway.
How many reasonable persons do you see on TV?
You said the few you never see on TV.
I submit that there are millions of us reasonable and loving Christians you never see on TV.
The problem is many non-Christians define us by the FEW they see on TV.
I am one of the many, not one of the few.