Reply | 2025-11-17 22:01:00 UTC | #1 Continuing the discussion from [Chicago Reader Being Sold (Again)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-reader-being-sold-again/1022508) and https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-owns-sdmb/1024931/ : Should we, as a community, consider coming up with some sort of contingency/continuity plan in case the SDMB ever suddenly goes dark one day? My understanding of the current board situation is that we're basically flying under the radar, vaguely owned by a subsidiary of a nonprofit media group called Chicago Public Media, but without any official interactions with them. As far as I know, we don't even have a way of contacting them (is that true? I'm not sure) or any word about how long they'd want to keep running these boards. We seem to be either under the good graces of some mysterious benefactor, or perhaps simply forgotten about. But running these boards isn't free; *somebody* has to keep paying the Discourse company to keep the lights on here. Maybe we'll last another 30 years. Or maybe next month another owner takes over and decides to add a bunch of AI spam. Or maybe it just — *poof!* — goes dark and forever disappears one day, with little to no warning. That'd be pretty sad! I've been a part of this board since I was a teenager (in my 40s now) and I'd like to see it keep going. Many others are old-timers who I'll miss if this suddenly goes away. Thoughts? ----- I know we've previously had a partial split that spawned [The Giraffe Boards](https://www.giraffeboards.com/index.php), but I've never participated there so I don't know how it works. From a technical perspective, it should be possible to [make a backup of the entire SDMB and restore it to another Discourse instance](https://meta.discourse.org/t/create-download-and-restore-a-backup-of-your-discourse-database/122710), but that can only be done while we still have some living admins who can perform the backup (I am not sure if we do, TBH...). If it gets shut down without warning, we'd lose all the old posts and current users. From a financial perspective, it would cost probably a few hundred dollars a year to keep the board going (my guess), maybe less if we can get a technical team together to self-host the software. But somebody — some org, or a trust, or at least a group of individuals — would have to be able to pay the ongoing costs. From a community perspective, any non-seamless, non-automatic transition is likely to lose a bunch of users, especially if there's no orderly migration and just a mass signup (with new usernames) on another board. I doubt many long-timers would want to bother with that, or that we'd even all manage to find the right place to move to, unless it was all discussed and agreed upon beforehand. Anyhow... is this premature? Probably. Hopefully. But I am admittedly a *little* worried, and figured it wouldn't hurt to at least start thinking about this. Anyone else? ------------------------- Al128 | 2025-11-17 22:03:02 UTC | #2 there is probably also an IP issue there … who “owns” the data-base and can “da mods” just copy it with all the contact information and contact the teeming millions? … I’d have no qualms, but for ‘muricans in ‘murica it might be a (legal?) problem ------------------------- hajario | 2025-11-17 22:03:24 UTC | #3 [quote="Reply, post:1, topic:1024934"] I know we’ve previously had a partial split that spawned [The Giraffe Boards](https://www.giraffeboards.com/index.php), but I’ve never participated there so I don’t know how it works. [/quote] I am an Admin on the Giraffe Board and it would certainly be a place for people to discuss and find out about the replacement. I understand that there is a Facebook page and there is also a [subreddit](https://old.reddit.com/r/sdmb/) that is mostly dead but anyone can post information there. ------------------------- Al128 | 2025-11-17 22:05:48 UTC | #4 hahaha … I don’t know if done on purpose or just by chance, but the subreddit looks soooo 1995 … :wink: ------------------------- What_Exit | 2025-11-17 22:12:13 UTC | #5 We have no access to the database anyway. We could probably run some reports to a .csv, but no direct access. We're Mods and not Admins. When the SDMB goes dark, it will be the end of an era, but we're slowly dwindling anyway. As far as copying the board, I suspect the IP of the board will be tied up by the actual owners even when they turn it off. Major legal issues most likely. Without their permission all we could do is start a new board and try to gather the users. These worries had happened in 2009 and weirdly 2 boards started at the same time (literally the same weekend). Thankfully, 16 years later the SDMB is still up and working, those boards are tiny little satellites. ------------------------- Reply | 2025-11-17 22:14:57 UTC | #6 [quote="What_Exit, post:5, topic:1024934"] We could probably run some reports to a .csv, but no direct access. [/quote] I wonder... would the mods at least be able to export a list of current active users (say, posted something within the last 2 years) and their email addresses, backed up safely somewhere? That way, if the board ever does disappear, at least there's a way to contact the existing users and maybe assign them the same usernames on another board... [quote="What_Exit, post:5, topic:1024934"] When the SDMB goes dark, it will be the end of an era, but we’re slowly dwindling anyway. [/quote] But we're getting new users, still! At this rate, we might still have 3 or 4 users in another 16 years... 😅 ------------------------- Czarcasm | 2025-11-17 22:17:57 UTC | #7 There is nothing wrong with the run we've had, the things we've done or the friends we've made along the way. Remembering and rejoicing are the two things that cannot be bought, sold or shut down, and that will be more than enough for me when our time comes. Which ain't just yet, by the way. ------------------------- snowthx | 2025-11-17 22:35:44 UTC | #8 [quote="Reply, post:6, topic:1024934"] I wonder… would the mods at least be able to export a list of current active users (say, posted something within the last 2 years) and their email addresses, backed up safely somewhere? That way, if the board ever does disappear, at least there’s a way to contact the existing users and maybe assign them the same usernames on another board… [/quote] Yeah, sort of like the seed vault in Svalbard. The Giraffe boards look and work like the SDMB of old. I am not a user over there (yet) but that seems a logical place for flotsam from this board to end up should we eventually strike an iceberg. The problem is alerting everyone here, active users and the occasional reader/poster where to go if we/they try to come here and all they see is… https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fm%2FJprGeeUV9P8AAAAC%2Fheartbeat-black.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=96002cf2ba535b8b4e88aceb66b7e17cd05d2a90813b3164c69153d09ae8795f ------------------------- Al128 | 2025-11-17 22:36:57 UTC | #9 I think most “regulars” of this virtual dive-bar know the giraffe-boards … and that would be a logical meeting point ------------------------- Czarcasm | 2025-11-17 22:38:04 UTC | #10 I'm not sure if the mods have access to such a list, the ability to use it in such a way if they do…or even the ability to tell us if they do have such rights. ------------------------- Czarcasm | 2025-11-17 22:39:43 UTC | #11 How many of us could that other board afford to take in? ------------------------- hajario | 2025-11-17 22:53:09 UTC | #12 All of us but there’s some historical baggage with the place that may make it inappropriate. I envision it as a stopping ground but would be willing to take it on if it is truly the only option so long as at least most of the current mods would be willing to help. ------------------------- wolfpup | 2025-11-17 23:10:53 UTC | #13 Funny you should ask that question right now. Before I joined the SDMB nearly 12 years ago, I had been a frequent poster on another message board. It was quite a large community with a lot of users and a lot of different forums, but I pretty much abandoned it because I preferred the SDMB. A couple of months ago I thought it might be interesting to visit briefly and see what was new, and it was ... **gone**! So yes, it can happen and it does. It seemed to have been unceremoniously shut down without even an explanation, and it wasn't for lack of participants. I haven't been following subsequent events very closely, but it seems that an enterprising former member there started a new message board, and though I don't think they made any effort to replicate the old content, nor I imagine could they, they did replicate some of the same forum structure and then tried to reach out to as many former members as possible, and from what I saw, quite a few were joining up with their old user names. I think sometimes when we ponder these things we overestimate the cost and logistics of running a message board. It's not that expensive, and I'm sure that the regulars here would be more than happy to contribute membership fees to cover that cost. I sure would. And Discourse hosting simplifies a lot of the admin stuff. [quote="What_Exit, post:5, topic:1024934"] We have no access to the database anyway. We could probably run some reports to a .csv, but no direct access. We’re Mods and not Admins. [/quote] But from a technical standpoint (not a legal/IP one, on which I'm not competent to comment) wasn't the essential data export already done when TubaDiva moved us from whatever creaky system was supporting vBulletin to Discourse? Mods may not have access to the database, but surely the Discourse admins do, because they're hosting it. I agree we have to be careful about legal rights, but from a purely technical standpoint, if we can get TPTB to agree, I don't see why we (the collective "we", with someone volunteering to be the admin) could not at least in theory continue to carry on with the existing database and the existing registered user base. ------------------------- ParallelLines | 2025-11-17 23:11:03 UTC | #14 I think @hajario is correct that there are hard feelings from some posters (on both sides) that would make it a challenging, but not impossible fusion. But I also think it's the most likely waypoint into any possible long-term decision. But I really feel both boards have a distinct if similar culture, and the status quo is best as long as :oncoming_fist: :wood: it can be maintained. ------------------------- LSLGuy | 2025-11-17 23:14:58 UTC | #15 [quote="wolfpup, post:13, topic:1024934"] wasn’t the essential data export already done when TubaDiva moved us from whatever creaky system was supporting vBulletin to Discourse [/quote] Technologically speaking: That was a snapshot from 5 years ago. So all but irrelevant to today. Are Discourse instances portable? Of course. Given admin rights to pull the data. As you say, the legal details are beyond my scope too. ------------------------- wolfpup | 2025-11-17 23:16:47 UTC | #16 [quote="LSLGuy, post:15, topic:1024934"] [quote="wolfpup, post:13, topic:1024934"] wasn’t the essential data export already done when TubaDiva moved us from whatever creaky system was supporting vBulletin to Discourse [/quote] That was a snapshot from 5 years ago. So all but irrelevant to today. [/quote] That wasn't my point. Once the posting database was moved to Discourse, it and its ongoing evolution was hosted by Discourse and is under their control. [quote="LSLGuy, post:15, topic:1024934"] Are Discourse instances portable? Of course. Given admin rights to pull the data. [/quote] Which the DIscourse admins/developers must have, if any legal issues have been resolved. ------------------------- Atamasama | 2025-11-17 23:29:08 UTC | #17 [quote="hajario, post:3, topic:1024934"] I understand that there is a Facebook page and there is also a [subreddit](https://old.reddit.com/r/sdmb/) that is mostly dead but anyone can post information there. [/quote] A few years ago I saw that the subreddit was dead, so I posted a topic just to say there was a new topic. And got a handful of replies. I suspect that there are lurkers there who are waiting for someone to say something. ------------------------- nearwildheaven | 2025-11-17 23:33:59 UTC | #18 I suppose we could meet up over on the Giraffe Boards; I probably post there about once a year, under a different username (and I have seen what some Dopers have said about me over there; oh, well). Is that a real possibility with this site? Not the first time I’ve seen a thread like this in recent days. ------------------------- Reply | 2025-11-17 23:38:10 UTC | #19 It's probably the current owners we'd have to get on board for any possibility of a seamless migration, not the Discourse staff/developers. Discourse, the software, is made by the [Civilized Discourse Construction Kit, Inc.](https://www.discourse.org/team), but what they sell is just the forum software and hosting. They don't own the board contents or branding. The actual SDMB brand and content, as far as we know, is instead owned by https://www.chicagopublicmedia.org/, who in turn [owns The Chicago Sun-Times](https://cst.brightspotcdn.com/3c/b2/169d4d6541ca829190b82165cda7/audited-financial-statements-cpm-fy24.pdf) : > In January 2022, Chicago Public Media, Inc. formed an entity called Chicago Sun-Times Media, Inc. (CSTM), a Delaware not-for-profit corporation, that acquired the assets of the Sun-Times Media Group, LLC. and STAcquisition Holdings LLC. for the sole purpose of extending its reach in providing news and information to educate and inform the public through local and independent journalism through print and digital publications, websites, mobile apps, social media, and community engagement. > > In October 2022, CSTM transitioned to a membership-supported donation model and removed its paywall from chicago.suntimes.com to make its digital content available as a public good. > > Through an Administrative Services Agreement, Chicago Public Media, Inc. and Chicago Sun-Times Media, Inc. share resources to conduct business related to further their charitable and educational purposes. Shared resources from Chicago Public Media, Inc. to Chicago Sun-Times Media, Inc. totaled $3,225,254 and $2,433,803 as of June 30, 2024 and 2023 respectively, which are eliminated upon consolidation. The Sun-Times itself [is a 501c3](https://cst.brightspotcdn.com/be/cf/6814b62b4c918a9d588e2952fd3a/990-cstm-fy24.pdf) nonprofit, but CPM is the sole member and seemingly has full control over its board. So I guess that's mostly good news? Hopefully CPM and CSTM (Chicago Sun-Times Media) see the value in having a community like this, but who's to say? It's possible they don't even know we still exist. As far as I can tell, we're not mentioned directly in their Form 990 report to the IRS, so maybe it's just rolled up in their ongoing expenses... Several contacts are listed there and we could reach out to one of them, but that has a risk of backfiring... not sure we'd want to draw that kind of attention to ourselves. At least not without substantial buy-in and some sort of realistic plan/offer from a large portion of existing board members first. But it's tricky. Act too soon and maybe we cause the premature death of the boards. Act too late and maybe it dies without warning when we could've saved it. I'm not sure when the best time to take action is, if ever. ------------------------- Al128 | 2025-11-18 00:04:03 UTC | #20 [quote="LSLGuy, post:15, topic:1024934"] As you say, the legal details are beyond my scope too. [/quote] well, we could \~\~exile\~\~ host it in Ecuador or Bolivia and forget about the legal aspects of the problem … (yep, I have been living in LatAm for too long, and acquired a certain pragmatic sense of the normative power of factual realities) ------------------------- Exapno_Mapcase | 2025-11-18 00:50:55 UTC | #21 The [Terms of Service](https://boards.straightdope.com/tos) contain this paragraph under **Copyrighted material.**. > * *Reuse of posted material.* All postings and other material on the SDMB are copyrighted by STM. Republication of material appearing on the SDMB without express written permission of STM is prohibited, except that users retain the right to republish their own work. By posting on this board you grant STM and its successors and assigns a nonexclusive irrevocable license to reuse your posting in any manner it or they see fit without notice or compensation to you. We do not own any of our posts. We can reuse our own posts and I assume quote others if doing so conforms to fair use but cannot do so as a whole without express written permission from STM, which is short for Sun-Times Media, LLC. (Assuming that STM is even the proper place to ask, with ownership blurred as in @Reply's post.) Transfer of copyright ownership is legally permissible but, another assumption, lawyers would have to be involved and total agreement from STM sought. Does anyone here other than Ed Zotti have any idea who at STM to contact given that blur? And lawyers cost more money than servers. As for the Giraffe Boards: [quote="hajario, post:12, topic:1024934"] All of us but there’s some historical baggage with the place that may make it inappropriate. [/quote] With heavy irony, discussion of that historical baggage is forbidden here per the rule on no board wars. If the GB bought the rights to the Dope, the irony meter would explode. ------------------------- wolfpup | 2025-11-18 01:06:10 UTC | #22 Giraffe Boards is not the answer -- it is its own thing with its own unique culture. What GB shows us, along with the other example I cited, is just how easy it is to just start up another message board. As for the legalities you cite, again, IANAL and incompetent to comment on what they might be, but what you cite reads to me like standard legal boilerplate and not necessarily an obstacle to amicably making the site an independent self-funded entity with the blessing of STM, with the entirety of the existing posting database. If they don't care about us now, why would they care about their supposed IP rights later? ------------------------- Qadgop_the_Mercotan | 2025-11-18 01:09:27 UTC | #23 What if the SDMB goes dark? Scions of SDMB, my siblings! I read in your words the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of dopers fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of Straightdopeness, but it is not this day! An hour of trolls and smelly socks, when the age of fighting ignorance comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we Cite!! By all that you hold dear on this good website, I bid you stand, scions of this board! ------------------------- echoreply | 2025-11-18 01:13:33 UTC | #24 I self host a small Discourse instance, and it is very easy to setup and manage, *for someone who knows how to do similar things*. It all runs in Docker containers, and setup is much more complicated than just editing a `docker-compose.yml` file, but the necessary documentation exists, and is easy enough to follow the instructions. It works fine behind a reverse proxy, and seems to play well with others. Mine has it's own hostname, and is hosted on a server that hosts web stuff, too. [quote="LSLGuy, post:15, topic:1024934"] Are Discourse instances portable? Of course. Given admin rights to pull the data. [/quote] The data is trivially portable. I've not yet had to restore my site, but it does make automated backups, which can be restored. The technical aspects of recreating the board are very easy. It is only the legal aspects. It would also be pretty easy to restore the board, and then strip the SDMB branding. So getting permission to use the content could be separated from using the trademarks. ------------------------- Exapno_Mapcase | 2025-11-18 01:14:19 UTC | #25 I'm not as sanguine. IANAL but my interpretation of copyright law is that we can't do anything with previous posts or the Straight Dope name without STM permission. Who would want to go ahead with that kind of liability hanging over them? A new board? Sure. That's doable and legal. But the GB was launched 16 years ago in a different era for message boards. And if you go over there you'll notice there is no mention of the Straight Dope Message Board by that name even in thread titles discussing the Dope. Very sensible, but not a good look for an unblessed successor board. ------------------------- What_Exit | 2025-11-18 01:14:42 UTC | #26 GB would probably have to be just a way station. But most of the Mods have accounts there and several of us post regularly. I'm there mostly for the megapolls. @hajario, of course I would help out. I suspect many other Mods would also. But a SDMB follow up board would probably need to be created on modern software. ------------------------- blondebear | 2025-11-18 01:15:16 UTC | #27 [quote="Qadgop_the_Mercotan, post:23, topic:1024934"] Scions of SDMB, my siblings! I read in your words the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of dopers fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of Straightdopeness, but it is not this day! An hour of trolls and smelly socks, when the age of fighting ignorance comes crashing down, but it is not this day! [/quote] So...we are canceling the apocalypse? ------------------------- Railer13 | 2025-11-18 01:18:16 UTC | #28 [quote="blondebear, post:27, topic:1024934"] we are canceling the apocalypse? [/quote] We'll reconsider it in two weeks. ------------------------- Seanette | 2025-11-18 01:23:38 UTC | #29 I just hope that if this board does leave, some option will exist for users to retrieve their own posts for personal archival purposes, since there are multiple times in my life where this board was a pretty decent record of what was going on in my life at that time, and I’d kind of like to have that personal history. ------------------------- LSLGuy | 2025-11-18 02:06:16 UTC | #30 How to download your entire posting history from day 1: Click your avatar at upper right on any page. Click the person icon at the bottom right of the popup. That brings up your profile page. Click "Preferences" at the right of the upper row of menu choices. That should auto-select the leftmost choice on the second row of menu choices: "Account". If "Account" isn't selected, click it. Now you're on the right page. Scroll down and near the bottom you'll see a heading "Export your data" with a button just below labeled [Request archive]. Click that button. An "Are you sure?" popup will appear. Click [Yes]. Another popup will appear saying "we're working on it". Click [OK] to dismiss that. That's almost all you have to do. The system will do an export of all your work, make it into a zipfile, then notify you when it's ready. For my pretty hefty corpus of work, that took about a minute then a DM appeared in my notifications. The DM is from "system" and is titled "[User Archive] Data export is complete". Click that to open the DM. Which has a link to click to download your archive to your PC. The zip file contains several files, most of which aren't important to you. The big one is all your posts. The format of that file isn't too friendly to a non-IT person, but even if you can't make it all pretty, you can at least find all your prose organized by date. ------------------------- Seanette | 2025-11-18 02:05:01 UTC | #31 Thanks. I just hope we’ll have at least a few days’ warning if/when. ------------------------- Czarcasm | 2025-11-18 02:06:32 UTC | #32 I started the first half of 1999. How much of my history will it download? ------------------------- LSLGuy | 2025-11-18 02:22:23 UTC | #33 If you can see it on Discourse now, it'll be in your archive. You might try doing a Discourse search for [@me before:2001-01-01] to see what it shows. If nothing, move that date forward in time in the search until it finds whatever are the earliest posts it has. ETA: I *beleive* the export will contain all your Discourse DMs. But ... I *believe* that when we came over from vBulletin, the PMs from vBulletin were deliberately not transferred. So your PM/DM history begins with Discourse in June 2020. And has been that way ever since the cutover. ------------------------- hajario | 2025-11-18 02:16:49 UTC | #34 You may recall the switch from UBB to vB. Some of the very early stuff is corrupted. ------------------------- robby | 2025-11-18 03:07:34 UTC | #35 I worry about this sometimes. This place (and all of you) mean a lot to me. I have been a member of the SDMB for nearly 25 years now, and according to my stats have visited the board for over 4,000 days over that time period. But I have no doubt the board could go dark...I just hope it doesn't happen any time soon. (It's not the same thing as a message board community, but just a few weeks ago, Intuit/TurboTax eliminated their whole *ItsDeductible* product line and website that I have been using every year since 2003. I found this out one week **after** it went dark...and one week too late to download my information before they deleted everything.) Anyway, I would really miss this board if this ever comes to pass. I guess my plan is to check out the GB, Facebook page, and Reddit page if this happens. ------------------------- Northern_Piper | 2025-11-18 03:24:47 UTC | #36 Is it possible to save a complete thread now? ------------------------- commasense | 2025-11-18 04:44:56 UTC | #37 [quote="robby, post:35, topic:1024934"] This place (and all of you) mean a lot to me. [/quote] *All* of us? Really? ------------------------- Czarcasm | 2025-11-18 05:17:01 UTC | #38 Whenever possible, say nothing and take the win. :grin: ------------------------- Velocity | 2025-11-18 05:19:52 UTC | #39 I seem to recall discussions years ago that the only reason we exist is because accountants at our owner company/newspaper apparently have never looked deep enough into the books to realize that we’re costing them $4,000 a year (or some sum like that.) Is that true? That somehow, someone’s credit card or bank account is being set up for automatic payments on a regular basis to (some other entity that needs to be paid), and we’re just 1 audit or missed payment away from going dark? ------------------------- Czarcasm | 2025-11-18 05:44:05 UTC | #40 If true, is this something you would want to bring out into the open? ------------------------- hajario | 2025-11-18 05:48:24 UTC | #41 [quote="Velocity, post:39, topic:1024934"] I seem to recall discussions years ago that the only reason we exist is because accountants at our owner company/newspaper apparently have never looked deep enough into the books to realize that we’re costing them $4,000 a year (or some sum like that.) Is that true? [/quote] No one here has any visibility into whether that is true or not but this costs significantly less than $4k/year. ------------------------- robby | 2025-11-18 14:16:43 UTC | #42 [quote="commasense, post:37, topic:1024934, full:true"] [quote="robby, post:35, topic:1024934"] This place (and all of you) mean a lot to me. [/quote] *All* of us? Really? [/quote] Ok, ~~most~~ some of you. 😉 ------------------------- wolfpup | 2025-11-18 16:55:40 UTC | #43 [quote="hajario, post:41, topic:1024934, full:true"] [quote="Velocity, post:39, topic:1024934"] I seem to recall discussions years ago that the only reason we exist is because accountants at our owner company/newspaper apparently have never looked deep enough into the books to realize that we’re costing them $4,000 a year (or some sum like that.) Is that true? [/quote] No one here has any visibility into whether that is true or not but this costs significantly less than $4k/year. [/quote] Here's the price structure. I'd guess we're probably on the $1200 a year plan. https://www.discourse.org/pricing ------------------------- hajario | 2025-11-18 17:06:16 UTC | #44 Finally some actual data! Remember back in the old days when the people claimed it was $10k/year? lol ------------------------- Exapno_Mapcase | 2025-11-18 17:11:22 UTC | #45 IIRC most of that was to pay for Jerry the IT guy's time at the Chicago Reader. Though I never really understood how the relationship worked. Old mods, do you remember better? ------------------------- hajario | 2025-11-18 17:15:04 UTC | #46 Was that their argument? He was a full time employees who would have been there anyway and that was a tiny part of his duties. ------------------------- wolfpup | 2025-11-18 17:22:04 UTC | #47 I thought I'd just throw in this factoid from a Discourse Q&A that I came across: ### [Can I download my data?](https://www.communiteq.com/discoursehosting/faq/#download) Yes. You own your own data. A copy of your files (including uploads and avatars) and databases (full dumps) can be downloaded from the Backups menu of the Discourse admin panel at any time. ------------------------- TroutMan | 2025-11-18 17:30:18 UTC | #48 [quote="wolfpup, post:43, topic:1024934"] Here’s the price structure. I’d guess we’re probably on the $1200 a year plan. [/quote] Does a moderator count as staff? That plan is limited to 5 staff, and we have more than 5 mods. The $6K/year plan also includes migration services, which we would have used at launch. I hope we're not on the Business plan, but I'm not sure we can safely guess we're on Pro. ------------------------- Atamasama | 2025-11-18 17:34:07 UTC | #49 [quote="TroutMan, post:48, topic:1024934"] Does a moderator count as staff? [/quote] My understanding is that moderators just have greater privileges than other community members, but don't interact with the Discourse software itself in any meaningful way, therefore they wouldn't count as "staff". That would rather be someone like an administrator. So, you could have up to 5 administrators. I could be wrong about this, but that's how I interpret it. ------------------------- Czarcasm | 2025-11-18 17:37:35 UTC | #50 Same here. “Staff” means Discourse staff, not Moderators. ------------------------- wolfpup | 2025-11-18 17:42:23 UTC | #51 [quote="Atamasama, post:49, topic:1024934"] My understanding is that moderators just have greater privileges than other community members, but don’t interact with the Discourse software itself in any meaningful way, therefore they wouldn’t count as “staff” [/quote] That seems like a very reasonable interpretation, because there's no reason that Discourse should care about how a site is managed except in terms of how many staff are authorized to interact with them directly. But yet it seems that they do, and that moderators count as staff: https://meta.discourse.org/t/understanding-user-statuses-roles-and-permissions/35171 ------------------------- Atamasama | 2025-11-18 17:44:30 UTC | #52 [quote="wolfpup, post:51, topic:1024934"] But yet it seems that they do, and that moderators count as staff: [/quote] Not all of them. See here: > **Category Moderator** > >This is a non-staff user who is part of a group that has been granted select moderation powers over specific categories. This can be enabled per site using the `enable category group moderation` admin setting, and set for each category in the Settings tab of the category wrench: And that seems to be how moderators work here; mods handle certain categories, not the entire site. That's why each category has a list of moderators for it. ------------------------- wolfpup | 2025-11-18 17:49:17 UTC | #53 [quote="Atamasama, post:52, topic:1024934"] And that seems to be how moderators work here; mods handle certain categories, not the entire site. That’s why each category has a list of moderators for it. [/quote] But that seems to be voluntary in our current configuration, not a software-enforced feature. My understanding is that moderators can act in any forum ("category") but as a matter of protocol usually confine their actions to their assigned forums. ------------------------- Atamasama | 2025-11-18 17:49:10 UTC | #54 [quote="wolfpup, post:53, topic:1024934"] My understanding is that moderators can act in any forum (“category”) but as a matter of protocol usually confine their actions to their assigned forums. [/quote] That could be, I really don't know. ------------------------- pjd | 2025-11-18 18:07:41 UTC | #55 According to that link... staff members are .. "members of the Discourse site with admin and/or moderator permissions" But I didn't think that the SDMB was hosted by Discourse .. ? ETA: although according to [this](https://hostingchecker.com/) site it is ! (Whereas https://meta.discourse.org/ is hosted by Amazon.com !!) ------------------------- Atamasama | 2025-11-18 18:08:59 UTC | #56 [quote="pjd, post:55, topic:1024934"] ETA: although according to [this](https://hostingchecker.com/) site it is ! [/quote] You're correct. > It is hosted by: **Civilized Discourse Construction Kit Inc** ------------------------- snowthx | 2025-11-18 19:50:46 UTC | #57 Curious about the move to our current platform. When that occurred there was deliberate action by someone - a person or three or four, to bring our little corner of the internet here. It’s not like we just magically transitioned from one platform to another - someone/people had to “do” stuff to get us here. Anyone that was part of that transition still around here? That may shed some light on what the initial set-up and agreements with whomever may have been. As an aside, I hope we don’t dig too greedily and deeply here and, to continue the whole *Lord of the Rings* references, disturb some demon in the dark and alert it to our presence. ------------------------- Reply | 2025-11-18 19:52:57 UTC | #58 Keep in mind that the current owners are also eligible for a 50% nonprofit discount off the hosted prices, though I'm not sure if they're taking advantage of it. In the event of an exodus/migration, if we were to self-host a Discourse instance (as @echoreply said in [#24](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-sdmb-goes-dark-should-we-make-a-contingency-plan/1024934/24?u=reply)), it would be quite cheap (like tens to a few hundred dollars a year), especially if we keep images disabled. I think a collections bin would take care of paying for that. The technical hurdles are similarly small. The bigger issue is the bureaucratic hurdles we have now, of deciding whether (and when) to reach out to the current owners to assist in any sort of eventual handover. **I wonder... have any of the mods had *any* recent contacts with The Powers That Be, sometime after the changeover of ownership to the Chicago Sun-Times?** (i.e., last few years)? Do we have *any* sense of how things are going, how much it's costing them, etc., or has it just been radio silence for years and years? I'm honestly not sure which is worse/riskier... Anyhow, if we don't want to use the Giraffe Boards as an "emergency rally point", so to speak, another potential path forward might be to simply spin up a backup Discourse forum to serve as a placeholder? It'd basically be an unoccupied "safehouse" just waiting for the apocalypse. It would have no SDMB branding at all, but we could start (manually) creating user accounts there, only for the posters who want to reserve their current usernames. Then it'd basically just sit unused, until and unless the actual SDMB were to go dark. At that point, hopefully enough people would remember that the alternate backup board even exists, and start posting there instead. Or, if we *were* able to come to some sort of migration agreement with the official then-owners, it would be easy enough to actually migrate all the existing users over to the new forum. Posts may or may not come, depending on the legal status and what the then-owners want... I dunno. It really just depends on how many people would be interested in continuing the community in the event the official board goes dark. Some of us are OK with letting it naturally reach its end of life... but dammit, I'm still young-ish and I don't want to see the board die before me 😅 ------------------------- Reply | 2025-11-18 19:59:58 UTC | #59 [quote="Northern_Piper, post:36, topic:1024934, full:true"] Is it possible to save a complete thread now? [/quote] You mean a single topic, like this one? There's [a few ways](https://meta.discourse.org/t/how-to-print-or-export-very-long-topics/223138/3?tl=en)... Given a topic like this current thread, `https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-sdmb-goes-dark-should-we-make-a-contingency-plan/1024934/` 1. Add `/print` to the end, like [https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-sdmb-goes-dark-should-we-make-a-contingency-plan/1024934/print](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-sdmb-goes-dark-should-we-make-a-contingency-plan/1024934/print) to make a long printable version that you can save to PDF (or actually print out) 2. Use the topic ID (`1024934`) in a special URL, [https://boards.straightdope.com/raw/1024934](https://boards.straightdope.com/raw/1024934) to get a Markdown version of it. 3. Ask the [Way Back Machine](https://web.archive.org/) or [archive.ph](https://archive.ph/) to save an online copy of it for you. If there's a particular topic you want to try to archive and a particular format you'd like it in, PM me here and I will try to help you with that. ------------------------- silenus | 2025-11-18 20:06:41 UTC | #60 Thanks for that. At least now I have a semi-current backup of all my ramblings from the last 22 years. ------------------------- hajario | 2025-11-18 21:02:35 UTC | #61 [quote="Reply, post:58, topic:1024934"] Anyhow, if we don’t want to use the Giraffe Boards as an “emergency rally point”, so to speak, another potential path forward might be to simply spin up a backup Discourse forum to serve as a placeholder? It’d basically be an unoccupied “safehouse” just waiting for the apocalypse. [/quote] You don't even need to be a member to read the news on the Giraffe Boards and it will certainly be discussed there. You are welcome to make a sock if you want to comment. It's a very low volume board with loose rules. Given that it's a spin off we generally disallow someone from grabbing a username of a regular poster here unless they are that same poster so if you see a familiar name it is the same person. ------------------------- Reply | 2025-11-18 21:12:31 UTC | #62 I wouldn't mind the Giraffe Boards, personally, but it seems like some folks (on both sides) might...? I don't know the whole history there. I remember the split, but I didn't keep tabs on any of the drama that happened afterward. Did it cause some bad blood? ------------------------- hajario | 2025-11-18 21:35:10 UTC | #63 Discussing the specifics here is discouraged but I assure you that these days the Admins at the GB have no issues with the Dope and a few of the Dope moderators participate there ------------------------- Reply | 2025-11-18 21:37:45 UTC | #64 Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification. ------------------------- Lancia | 2025-11-18 21:46:44 UTC | #65 [quote="LSLGuy, post:33, topic:1024934"] So your PM/DM history begins with Discourse in June 2020. [/quote] I have access to all my PM's going back to 2011, which is when I first began posting in earnest. ------------------------- LSLGuy | 2025-11-18 21:59:38 UTC | #66 Evidently my recollection was wrong. Thanks for setting the record straight. ------------------------- hajario | 2025-11-18 22:07:45 UTC | #67 [quote="Reply, post:64, topic:1024934, full:true"] Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification. [/quote] I will clarify further that I am personally on at least reasonably good terms with all of the moderators here and in many cases very good terms. Over the years there have been a very small handful of cases where we had to resolve a problem together that involved real life implications of a poster. I have been an Admin/Mod on dozens of fora and groups since the late 90s. Sometimes, rarely, what goes on behind the scenes is insane and a lot of what people assume is flat out wrong. ------------------------- Exapno_Mapcase | 2025-11-18 23:06:48 UTC | #68 I'm stunned I'm the only one in this thread to mention Ed Zotti. Isn't the SDMB essentially his creation, his fiefdom, and his property? Isn't it still? How can anyone be talking about continuing the Dope without his input? I've never talked to Ed and I have no idea of his thoughts except for the few terse - and usually annoyed - comments here since the change to Discourse. Maybe he'd love to get rid of the aging responsibility. Maybe he wants to see it live forever. Maybe he doesn't care either way. But talking about a future and leaving him on the outside is indecent. The mods must have some way of contacting him. Maybe he already has some plans in his barn. ------------------------- Tamerlane | 2025-11-18 23:21:59 UTC | #69 [quote="hajario, post:46, topic:1024934, full:true"] Was that their argument? He was a full time employees who would have been there anyway and that was a tiny part of his duties. [/quote] I imagine it was just part of annual budgeting. Jerry gets paid $[b]X[/b]/hr, Jerry spends [b]Y[/b] number of hours supporting the SDMB per year. Therefore in a given year the board costs hosting/server fees + ([b]X[/b] x [b]Y[/b]) dollars. On the one hand it exaggerates the cost of maintaining a site like this, but from an organizational labor-tracking POV it makes sense. Especially if Jerry (like many IT guys at not-huge companies) is understaffed/overworked and is having to back-burner other pressing projects to support the SDMB, requiring a bit of overtime. ------------------------- LSLGuy | 2025-11-18 23:17:43 UTC | #70 Yep. @Ed_Zotti. He certainly has reason to be circumspect in this thread, but if he chooses to offer any words, the rest of us will benefit by reading & heeding. ------------------------- hajario | 2025-11-18 23:28:12 UTC | #71 Ed doesn't give a fuck about us one way or the other, especially since the well went dry. ------------------------- What_Exit | 2025-11-19 00:22:34 UTC | #72 That's not fair, he is keeping this place alive and really is getting nothing out of it to speak of. He doesn't own the SDMB or the Straight Dope. He's mostly hands off just lightly supervising the Mod Staff. He stepped up when the SDMB lost **TubaDiva** or we would probably already be gone. ------------------------- Aspenglow | 2025-11-19 00:22:43 UTC | #73 Thank you, @What_Exit. That needed to be said. What was it you said earlier, @hajario? [quote="hajario, post:67, topic:1024934"] a lot of what people assume is flat out wrong. [/quote] ------------------------- hajario | 2025-11-19 01:22:13 UTC | #74 I stand by my opinion that he doesn't give a shit about us. I agree that he does help out a little. ------------------------- Reply | 2025-11-19 01:28:09 UTC | #75 I only recognize that name from the old Cecil articles, back when the actual SD was still a thing. I didn't know that he was active on the forum, either as an admin or a poster. I guess I just haven't seen his posts? But if he'd like to chime in here, of course his thoughts would be very much welcome, and hopefully illuminating. As would anyone else's who is associated with the Sun-Times or who has any firsthand or secondhand or thirdhand knowledge of our likely fate. ------------------------- hajario | 2025-11-19 01:57:49 UTC | #76 I have had private conversations with a few former moderators and one long time employee and they are all remarkably consistent on this. ------------------------- Atamasama | 2025-11-19 02:45:23 UTC | #77 [quote="Reply, post:75, topic:1024934"] I didn’t know that he was active on the forum, either as an admin or a poster. I guess I just haven’t seen his posts? [/quote] Generally, if there is a big "declaration" it's from him, like major rules updates. His last activity was in announcing @ParallelLines as a new moderator (back in April). Otherwise he doesn't spend much time here. ------------------------- wolfpup | 2025-11-19 03:20:52 UTC | #78 [quote="Atamasama, post:77, topic:1024934, full:true"] [quote="Reply, post:75, topic:1024934"] I didn’t know that he was active on the forum, either as an admin or a poster. I guess I just haven’t seen his posts? [/quote] Generally, if there is a big "declaration" it's from him, like major rules updates. His last activity was in announcing @ParallelLines as a new moderator (back in April). Otherwise he doesn't spend much time here.   [/quote] I'll just mention that the message board I used to participate in before I came to the SDMB, which as I said before was quite large and active, had a single admin who was also the owner and tech support. He was also a fairly frequent poster, not just on admin matters but just general chat. Yet as I mentioned before, the site was abruptly shut down a few months ago without even the courtesy of an explanation. I'm sure that Ed would treat us with greater consideration. The point is, whether or not an admin is an active poster is not an indicator of anything except that maybe they're busy with stuff in the real world. You could not ask for a more passionately dedicated admin than the late **TubaDiva**, who among many other things advocated for us with TPTB, gave us avatars, and migrated us to Discourse, but IIRC she wasn't a frequent poster, either. ------------------------- Exapno_Mapcase | 2025-11-19 03:23:54 UTC | #79 Well, then, he shouldn't have any objections. That's in no way a reason to not have the courtesy to ask. ------------------------- ParallelLines | 2025-11-19 04:08:47 UTC | #80 Since it was brought up, I want to mention even if he doesn't post here frequently, when I was going through the invitation and interview, Ed Zotti spent a considerable amount of time contacting me (it originally went to my legacy email which I don't check daily), listening to my concerns about being a *good* mod, and reviewing my answers and general fit. I think he does care, but may not have the time or energy to participate - something many senior posters probably can relate with, having taken longer/shorter sabbaticals from the site when it, or IRL, or *both* were just too much. ------------------------- Reply | 2025-11-19 15:29:31 UTC | #81 If Ed clearly does care about the board, AND has connections to the Sun Times (used to or still works there?), might it be worth emailing him directly to ask about this situation? ------------------------- snowthx | 2025-11-19 17:13:33 UTC | #82 What situation? We are currently cruising under the radar, apparently, and yes, while we cannot know the future here, might raising our hand here attract attention we currently enjoy not having? Is there risk being noticed may hasten what we all fear - do we *need* to have a plan? I don’t know what the right thing to do is, tho. ------------------------- What_Exit | 2025-11-19 17:48:13 UTC | #83 There isn't really a situation. This is a minor hysteria. He has been @'d, that should be enough if he thinks anything here needs addressing. ------------------------- Reply | 2025-11-19 18:59:12 UTC | #84 I don't know if it even rises to the level of "minor hysteria"... it's just a concern/deliberation. I for one would be sad to see the SDMB disappear, and would appreciate reassurances or a specific plan to help prevent that. If we hear nothing and nothing gets done and it all goes poof one day, well, I'd be sad, but life would go on. But if there's anything I/we can do to help prevent that (however unlikely) possibility, I'd be willing and eager to pitch in, that's all. ------------------------- What_Exit | 2025-11-19 19:08:57 UTC | #85 No sale is pending, no bankruptcy is pending. Neither Tin soldiers or Nixon are coming for the SDMB. The fact there are 4 threads active in ATMB on this subjects feels like a self-generating minor hysteria or choose the word that you feel better fits it. I fear if inquiries go to far up to the parent company and they notice we're here, they might wonder why we're here and if they should keep paying for us to be here. Contacting Ed Zotti is fine, but bothering the [Chicago Public Media](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Public_Media) or Chicago Sun-Times may do more harm than good. ------------------------- Reply | 2025-11-19 19:23:18 UTC | #86 [quote="What_Exit, post:85, topic:1024934"] Contacting Ed Zotti is fine, but bothering the [Chicago Public Media](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Public_Media) or Chicago Sun-Times may do more harm than good. [/quote] That was my sense as well. Well, I guess let's hope he sees the @ mention and has the time to offer a few words here. Edit: PS It's not that I'm worried about a sale or bankruptcy per se, but that the Straight Dope (as a column) is an already-small part of whatever outfit happens to own them at any given time. Of that, the SDMB is an even smaller part. Either or both could be shut down even without an ownership change, for all the reasons you and others already said. Hopefully we'd get *some* warning in that event. ------------------------- Exapno_Mapcase | 2025-11-19 20:13:43 UTC | #87 [quote="What_Exit, post:85, topic:1024934"] Neither Tin soldiers or Nixon are coming for the SDMB. [/quote] It's suspicious that you left off the next line: "We're finally on our own." What *isn't* said is always important! -------------------------