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summerbreeze
03-22-2003, 11:22 PM
fragging officers (throwing hand grenades) has already started in the war on Iraq. How many fragging incidents occured in Viet Nam?

mangeorge
03-22-2003, 11:35 PM
Some. Not as many as myth would have it.
I think ExTank could better answer this question. I'm pretty sure it's come up before on the SDMB.
Peace,
mangeorge

Buck The Diver
03-22-2003, 11:35 PM
ummm.........cite? link? clue? anything?

Convict
03-22-2003, 11:47 PM
According to http://home.mweb.co.za/re/redcap/vietcrim.htm , there were 1,103 reported fragging incidents in the Army from 1969-1972.

mangeorge
03-23-2003, 12:03 AM
Maybe. I got out (USN, amphibious) in early '68, and my contact was with Marines.

peepthis
03-23-2003, 12:48 AM
Well I'll be; I'd never heard of either the word or the practice of "fragging" (well, in a non-gamer sense) until this thread came along. I already saw the news story about this recent incident, but would never have guessed ambushing superiors was somewhat common. Just to clarify for those (like me) who might not know what exactly the word entails, the OED says:

To throw a fragmentation grenade at one's superior officer, esp. one who is considered over-zealous in his desire for combat.and from one of their cites:Fragging is a macabre ritual of Vietnam in which American enlisted men attempt to murder their superiors. The word comes from the nickname for hand grenades, a weapon popular with enlisted men because the evidence is destroyed with the consummation of the crime.

Ike Witt
03-23-2003, 12:59 AM
Here is what the OP is refering to, I think: Soldier detained in fatal attack on Army camp (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/22/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html).

Arturas
03-23-2003, 05:29 AM
In WWII, my father said it was common to shoot such men in the back of the head. Those that survived were given non-combat positions. He is dead now but I think he referred to such people as simply having been shot in the back. This occurred to I believe his company commander whortly after landing in France and he met the man accidentally in an administrive position later on in the war.
Hopefully someone who fought at that time can do a better job of this than I, who can only repeat what I heard.

Paul in Qatar
03-23-2003, 07:07 AM
Actually I recall Braxton Bragg surivied a fragging attempt in Vera Cruz in '46. Someone rolled a lit artillery shell into his tent.

Supposedly he was called "Boom-Boom" Bragg for years later.

raygirvan
03-23-2003, 08:26 PM
Current events inspired me also to check out the subject: see Mutiny, Fragging and Desertions in the U.S. Military (http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/freeearth/harass_brass.html). No idea of the reliability of the document - but we know now that it happens...

asterion
03-23-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by peepthis
Well I'll be; I'd never heard of either the word or the practice of "fragging" (well, in a non-gamer sense) until this thread came along. I already saw the news story about this recent incident, but would never have guessed ambushing superiors was somewhat common.

You must be young (I am too). I wonder if this is one of those generation gap things.

summerbreeze
03-23-2003, 09:09 PM
Young has nothing to do with it, Peepthis & Asterion. It's possible to know about a lot of things that happened before you were born.

mangeorge
03-23-2003, 09:19 PM
Yeah, read raygirvan's link, all of it, before it get's deleted.
Scary shit.

Princhester
03-23-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Paul in Saudi
Someone rolled a lit artillery shell into his tent.

Errr, pardon? A lit artillery shell?

Johanna
03-23-2003, 10:11 PM
A friend of mine in the DoD told me the original reason for the creation of the Marine Corps in the 18th century was to put down naval mutinies. So many sailors in those days were impressed, held there against their will, and treated like animals, that mutiny was a very real threat to naval officers. The Marines were brought in as troops of unquestionable loyalty in order to protect those officers. The Marines were a force to protect the officers from their own men.

When I look up histories of the Marine Corps, they don't go into this somewhat unpleasant aspect.

But it does lend significance to the Marine Band being called "the President's Own"— because their loyalty is directly to the C in C. And the line in the "Marines' Hymn" where they taunt the Army and Navy that the Marines get to guard Heaven.

This is relevant to the OP in that it shows how enlisted men turning on their own officers goes a long way back.

Reeder
03-23-2003, 10:23 PM
I know of incidents in Viet Nam where a warning would be given. They would deliver a note and a grenade pin to a disliked officer.

The note said..this time you get the pin and we get the grenade..next time...you get the grenade and we get the pin.

asterion
03-23-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by summerbreeze
Young has nothing to do with it, Peepthis & Asterion. It's possible to know about a lot of things that happened before you were born.

Not what I meant. This particular phrase made it into gaming lingo. Considering most students don't get a good education on Vietnam, it's not surprising that the older use wouldn't be known.

samclem
03-23-2003, 11:07 PM
A friend of mine in the DoD told me the original reason for the creation of the Marine Corps in the 18th century was to put down naval mutinies. So many sailors in those days were impressed, held there against their will, and treated like animals, that mutiny was a very real threat to naval officers. The Marines were brought in as troops of unquestionable loyalty in order to protect those officers. The Marines were a force to protect the officers from their own men. Nice anecdote. One assumes that there must have been a rash of mutinies or killings before the Maries were formed. Any cites?But it does lend significance to the Marine Band being called "the President's Own"— because their loyalty is directly to the C in C. And the line in the "Marines' Hymn" where they taunt the Army and Navy that the Marines get to guard Heaven. When did the phrase "the President's Own" start? When was the "Marines' Hymn" written?

summerbreeze
03-23-2003, 11:51 PM
Sorry, Asterion. Didn't mean to be snide. Know the gaming lingo -- I have 4 sons. I over-reacted because I work with kids who say "Frank Sinatra? who's that?"

peepthis
03-24-2003, 01:19 AM
Personally I've just never heard of the practice of fragging from any schooling or books I've been through on Vietnam. Maybe it'd do me good to get my hands on some first-hand accounts from the war.Originally posted by summerbreeze
Sorry, Asterion. Didn't mean to be snide. Know the gaming lingo -- I have 4 sons. I over-reacted because I work with kids who say "Frank Sinatra? who's that?" Now that there's no excuse for.

In the wee small hours of the morning is when I post most of all,
peepthis

Johanna
03-24-2003, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by samclem
Nice anecdote. One assumes that there must have been a rash of mutinies or killings before the Maries were formed. Any cites? Are you asking me? I already stated I hadn't found anything on this in the regular histories of the USMC. Still, I think it's common knowledge how badly 18th-century seamen were treated. Charles Dana's Two Years Before the Mast is a well-known firsthand document of this from the 1830s. He was a lawyer who fought to get laws enacted for the humane treatment of sailors. Here's another cite—from James Joyce—They believe in rod, the scourger almighty, creator of hell upon earth, and in Jacky Tar, the son of a gun, who was conceived of unholy boast, born of the fighting navy, suffered under rump and dozen, was scarified, flayed and curried, yelled like bloody hell, the third day he arose again from the bed, steered into haven, sitteth on his beamend till further orders whence he shall come to drudge for a living and be paid.

Ringo
03-24-2003, 01:33 AM
Just to give a hint of the perspective of the author of raygirvan's cite:

As Capital's global dictatorship causes living conditions to deteriorate for the majority of humanity, working class troops will be given an expanding role in suppressing the rebellions of other working class people.

The numbers your cite, mangeorge, gives seem high. What is their source? Also, you indicate you were there; what is your personal experience of fragging/

And a P.S. hijack: WTF is "working class" anyway? I work, am I of the working class?

David Simmons
03-24-2003, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by Princhester
Errr, pardon? A lit artillery shell?
Yes, a lit artillery shell. The Braxton Bragg spoken of was a Confederate General in our Civil War. The '46 referred to was 1846 when Bragg was still a US Army officer. The first exploding shells for artillery were just hollow cannon balls containing lead shot and filled with powder to explode and scatter the shot. A fuze that burned at a known rate was lit and then the gun was fired. At first they were only used in mortars so that part of the shell with the fuze installed stuck out and was available for lighting off the fuze. Exteme accuracy wasn't all that critical as long as the shell exploded and scattered fragments in the vicinity of enemy troops.

So a "lit artillery shell" makes sense after all.

This from Britannica
"Shrapnel projectiles contained small shot or spherical bullets, usually of lead, along with an explosive charge to scatter the shot as well as fragments of the shell casing. A time fuze set off the explosive charge in the latter part of the shell's flight, while it was near opposing troops."

Princhester
03-24-2003, 02:04 AM
Gotcha, thanks DS.

tomndebb
03-24-2003, 03:00 AM
A friend of mine in the DoD told me the original reason for the creation of the Marine Corps in the 18th century was to put down naval mutinies. There are traditions of "seagoing soldiers" going back to the Greek navies of the fifth century B.C.E., and the Romans (who were never a really good maritime power) employed similar troops to fight their sea battles (relying on the corvus--a spiked boarding ramp, named "crow"--to get their troops aboard the opposing ships rather than fighting with rams and arrows).

The British first organized a regiment of marines in 1664 and the Dutch immediately responded with their own marines in 1665. While imressment may have been an issue, the primary motivation was to have troops aboard the ships who were specifically trained for battle with small arms, boarding, and landing parties, beyond the skills associated with seamanship.

Similarly, when the Continental Congress authorized the creation of two battalions of marines, it stated the intention to have landing forces with the fleet.

While discipline was brutal on ships of the time and marines may have been used to enforce it (I'll have to go dig up my copy of Melville's White Jacket), the marines were subject to the same discipline and I tend to doubt that they were created simply as an officers' bodyguard.

Diceman
03-24-2003, 07:40 AM
I remember reading that in Civil War days, the Marines were mostly used to guard warships while they were in port. This is why didn't do any fighting; they were basically just security guards.

tomndebb
03-24-2003, 08:35 AM
While sending marines into the rigging to fire down on the crew of an enemy ship began to fade out as ships acquired armor and lost rigging at the advent of steam power, marines continued to be used as landing parties. They saw less action than might be expected during the Civil War, itself, because of the nature of the conflict (although they appeared in a couple of surprising places), but following the Civil War, they became the primary agent of U.S. imperial expansion throughout Central America and the Pacific.

mangeorge
03-24-2003, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Ringo
Just to give a hint of the perspective of the author of raygirvan's cite:



The numbers your cite, mangeorge, gives seem high. What is their source? Also, you indicate you were there; what is your personal experience of fragging/

And a P.S. hijack: WTF is "working class" anyway? I work, am I of the working class?
I don't think anyone would doubt the slant of the paper cited by raygirvan. :D
I didn't give any numbers. In fact I said, above;
"Some. Not as many as myth would have it."
Personal experience? Sure, also from above;
"Maybe. I got out (USN, amphibious) in early '68, and my contact was with Marines."
Just before the practice became popular, it seems. There was talk, though.
Oh. Do you work for a boss, and draw a wage? If so, then yes.

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