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Tristan
03-27-2003, 05:00 AM
So I just started watching this show at the end of last season. I know nothing.

What's the drama between Gunn, Fred, and Wesley?

Why was faith in Jail?

What's up with Lorne?


Basically, if anyone would like to fill me in on the history and background, I would like it alot.

I'm sort of up-to-date on the Buffy-verse. My girl has been filling me in, so if it relates there, or is related, let me know.

Thanks!

Charlie Tan
03-27-2003, 06:18 AM
Briefly:

Faith was in jail because Angel convinced her to give herself up, stand trial and face her punishment, thereby going down the road to redemption. Clearly, she could have gotten out anytime, but stayed to pay for her crimes.

Wes, Gunn and Fred: Winnifred was found in the demon dimension Pylea, which is Lorne's homeworld. The final episodes of s.2 deals with this. A kinsman of Lorne's show up in his karaoke bar - Caritas - through an interdimensional portal. Cordy got sucked through and the Fang Gang followed to rescue her. They found Fred there, who kinda started to tag along. Both Gunn and Wes got a crush on her and everyone assumed she would go for the brainy Wes (being more or less a rocket scientist, herself), but she picked Gunn, seemingly unaware that Wes was interested, too.

Lorne then. He landed in L.A. (hinted to be a similar incident with fred, as that with Cordy). Being a misfit in Pylea, he fit right in when coming to La-La land. Caritas was a sanctuary, where no demons were allowed to fight. nd a karaoke bar. Lorne is an empath demon, who can read minds, emotions, whatever, when someone sings.

Anymore you want to know, just say the word!

Archergal
03-27-2003, 08:12 AM
Ok, so who was this X-Men wannabee gal in the 3/26 episode? The electric gal?

Somehow in talking with my Angel-fan friends, she was never mentioned.

Ethilrist
03-27-2003, 08:33 AM
Minor clarification: Faith was in jail for killing one of the mayor's people in Buffy; why Buffy wasn't in jail right alongside her as an accomplice was never addressed, although Principal Snyder did point out that the Sunnydale police were remarkably stupid.

Spandexia showed up as a mutant thief a while back. She zapped Gunn, which stopped his heart; she was going to bail, but stopped to jump-start him. Still got away. She came back a while later during the beginning of the Beast plot arc, and showed that she is actually a Thief with a Heart of Gold.

SkipMagic
03-27-2003, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Archergal
Ok, so who was this X-Men wannabee gal in the 3/26 episode? The electric gal?

Somehow in talking with my Angel-fan friends, she was never mentioned.

The character's name is Gwen Raiden, and the name of the actress who plays her is Alexa Davalos.

Gwen has only been in three episodes thus far and, as you noticed she has this sizzlin' touch caused by her eletrical abilities. Kinda silly, really, but she does look good in tight clothing... ;)

Anyway, she's a thief that played a minor part in her previous two episodes.

Oh, and she kissed Angel at one point and got his heart beating again. I was never too sure if it ever stopped. Huh.

She's part of that cliched character: good-looking criminal girl with a heart of gold.

And did I mention that she looks good in tight clothing?

Otto
03-27-2003, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Ethilrist
Minor clarification: Faith was in jail for killing one of the mayor's people in Buffy; why Buffy wasn't in jail right alongside her as an accomplice was never addressed, although Principal Snyder did point out that the Sunnydale police were remarkably stupid. Minor nitpick: do we know that it's the deputy mayor's death for which Faith was incarcerated? She did also murder that professor guy and committed any number of assaults and possibly murders in Los Angeles. She says she's a murderer and she is sentenced to 25-life but we don't actually know for what specific crimes she's doing the time.

As for why Buffy's not doing time as an accomplice, there's no evidence to implicate her in the death of the deputy mayor. If Faith confessed to that crime it's unlikely she'd implicate Buffy and even if she did, Buffy's died since then so may be legally beyond the reach of the law. "Warrant for Buffy Summers' arrest? Oh, she's dead so much for arresting her."

Katriona
03-27-2003, 09:27 AM
Can someone fill me in on what I've been told is the prophesy that wasn't - I've only been watching since the tail end of last season, and I vaguely remember talk of a prophesy of the "son killing the father" or something like that. When Cordy got pregnant, I speculated that perhaps whatever she's spawning will take out Connor and fulfill it, but was told the prophesy was proven false, so clearly I missed something. Thanks!

jeevmon
03-27-2003, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Katriona
Can someone fill me in on what I've been told is the prophesy that wasn't - I've only been watching since the tail end of last season, and I vaguely remember talk of a prophesy of the "son killing the father" or something like that. When Cordy got pregnant, I speculated that perhaps whatever she's spawning will take out Connor and fulfill it, but was told the prophesy was proven false, so clearly I missed something. Thanks!

The prophecy was that "the father shall kill the son." Wesley initially interpreted this prophecy to mean that Angel would kill the (then) infant Connor. A visit to a Loa (in the form of a talking hamburger in one of the most surreal scenes on either show) appeared to confirm his impressions, because the Loa stated that "the vampire will devour his son" and gave a list of omens to watch for. Events happened which appeared to fit with the omens, and Wesley kidnapped Connor. Connor was subsequently taken (by force) from Wesley, and ended up spending his formative years in a demon dimension, returning to our world several months later in his late teens, since time moves faster in the demon dimensions than in our dimension.

It turns out that the prophecy that Wesley uncovered was a "creative rewrite" of existing prophecies perpetrated by the time-travelling demon Sahjahn, who wanted to prevent a prophecy coming to pass that Connor would kill Sahjahn. Thus, it is not clear that "the father will kill the son" is flat out wrong, or if it is correct, but only in a context that has been deliberately obscured by Sahjahn. My money is on the latter, since Sahjahn did characterize his actions as a "rewrite" rather than planting a wholly new prophecy.

Bricker
03-27-2003, 10:18 AM
When worlds collide!

(I say this because a discussion of actual criminal law, as applied to the Buffy-verse, has always seemed unlikely. But here we are.)

As a matter of law, Buffy is not guilty in the death of the deputy mayor. Faith struck the killing blow; Buffy did nothing to assist her in doing that.

Now, if Faith and Buffy had been engaged in some sort of criminal enterprise, then the felony murder rule might apply: Buffy would be culpable for the death even if she didn't intend it and had no hand in it. But they weren't engaged in a criminal enterprise; they were walking down a public alley. To the extent they had plans, they were to kill vampires and demons - nothing illegal about that.

For that matter, the most Faith is guilty of is manslaughter in this. She certainly didn't intend to kill a person. She thought she was stabbing somethign that wasn't human. If - and only if - she was careless, the crime is manslaughter. If it was an honest and reasonable mistake, then she's guilty of no crime at all.

That doesn't address the other killings she later effected, such as the professor in his apartment. That was clearly first degree murder.

- Rick

joshmaker
03-27-2003, 11:10 AM
Two notes on the prophecies about Angel killing Conner:

- The first part “The father will kill the son” was a line in a larger prophecy that was changed by the demon Sahjahn from its original form which was the “Son shall kill Sahjahn”. The rest of that prophecy which I believe deals with a vampire having a son is still true.

- The second prophecy comes from when Wesley went to clarify the meaning of the first prophecy by asking the Loa. The Loa said something along the lines of “it is certain that the father will devour the child”, thus confirming Wesley’s fears. However, it appears that this statement was in fact a reference to Wolfram and Hart tainting the pig blood that Angel drinks with some of baby Conner’s blood.

Otto
03-27-2003, 12:30 PM
As a matter of law, Buffy is not guilty in the death of the deputy mayor. Faith struck the killing blow; Buffy did nothing to assist her in doing that.

Now, if Faith and Buffy had been engaged in some sort of criminal enterprise, then the felony murder rule might apply: Buffy would be culpable for the death even if she didn't intend it and had no hand in it. But they weren't engaged in a criminal enterprise; they were walking down a public alley. To the extent they had plans, they were to kill vampires and demons - nothing illegal about that.
Buffy did, however, engage in an attempt to conceal the identity of the deputy mayor's killer. So she's open at least to a charge of obstruction of justice. If the prosecutor really had a hardon for her s/he could charge Buffy as an accesory under California Penal Code section 32 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=7899545520+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve) which states Every person who, after a felony has been committed, harbors, conceals or aids a principal in such felony, with the intent that said principal may avoid or escape from arrest, trial, conviction or punishment, having knowledge that said principal has committed such felony or has been charged with such felony or convicted thereof, is an accessory to such felony. Under that section it looks to me like everyone who knew Faith killed the deputy mayor was open to an accessory charge, presuming of course that Faith's act was found to be a felony (which of course both murder and manslaughter are).

I suppose one could argue that wandering in public alleys at night looking for fights could be considered a criminal act. Loitering? Public nuisance? Malicious mischief? They were probably carrying concealed weapons, too.

Tusculan
03-27-2003, 02:22 PM
If the OP wants to catch up and doesn't mind spending some time, I can recommend the website City of Angel. They have good summaries, quotes and reviews of all episodes.

Mahaloth
03-27-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by TTT
If the OP wants to catch up and doesn't mind spending some time, I can recommend the website City of Angel. They have good summaries, quotes and reviews of all episodes.

I concur. She has cute reviews of most episodes, but has lost interest in the show recently due to its new direction.

Truth is, most people think the show is just hitting it's stride, while she thinks it is jumping the shark big-time.

PatrickM
03-27-2003, 05:11 PM
Reading Otto and Bricker's post and in a shameless hijack, it occurs to me that it might be interesting for someone to catalog the various crimes the Buffyverse characters have committed. The only thing I have to add would be that Buffy could probably be convicted for at least felony assault and battery on Faith since the Buffster did go to Faith's apartment with the goal of beating her up pretty good and feeding her to the then deathly ill Angel.

Otto
03-28-2003, 09:03 AM
To fully answer the question would require knowing what the legal status of demons is in the Buffyverse. Bricker seems to assume that they have a legal status different from humans ("To the extent they had plans, they were to kill vampires and demons - nothing illegal about that.") but if they have the same status as non-human animals it may very well be illegal to kill them without provocation. They apparently have the right to enter into contracts (c.f. the demon restauranteurs on AtS and Angel himself) which argues against the "animal" status.

And yes, I am fully and painfully aware that I am a geek.

Barbarian
03-28-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Otto
it's unlikely she'd implicate Buffy and even if she did, Buffy's died since then so may be legally beyond the reach of the law. "Warrant for Buffy Summers' arrest? Oh, she's dead so much for arresting her."

Except that nobody knew she was dead! The only clue to her death is a grave in the middle of nowhere with only her given name. The scoobies hid her death from everyone Otto, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with 'the summer of misdirection'.

On another note-- You should know that Angel spent last summer at the bottom of the ocean, being put there by his son. Sahjahn got away.

Kyla
03-28-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by PatrickM
Reading Otto and Bricker's post and in a shameless hijack, it occurs to me that it might be interesting for someone to catalog the various crimes the Buffyverse characters have committed.

Well, Angel's committed assault dozens of times (heck, he's assaulted Lindsay alone dozens of times). I'm not sure how the law would treat vampires, though. Also, there was the time he locked Darla and Drusilla in that room with the lawyers. I don't know exactly what the crime would be, though...aiding and abetting? He kidnapped Faith once, too - that's a crime against a human.

I don't think y'all are remembering everything Buffy and Faith did in Bad Girls. Besides the staking of the deputy mayor, they broke into a store, stole a bunch of stuff, and after they were arrested, they...I guess attacked the cops to get away. And that was not just Faith - Buffy broke a bunch of laws there, too.

Willow, of course, flayed Warren alive.

No other crimes are occurring to me at the moment.

The Devil's Grandmother
03-28-2003, 02:57 PM
IANAL, so my idea of what “crime” is comes from watching Law&Order. I’m going to leave out “destruction of property” because that would be too many. I’m also assuming Sunnydale has no curfew laws for minors and staking a vampire has no legal ramifications.
Just from the first season:
Buffy
1)Breaking and entering the morgue (Never Kill a Boy on the First Date)
2)Kidnaps and imprisons Xander (The Pack)
3)Feeds zookeeper to hyenas (The Pack)
Giles
1)Breaking and entering the morgue (Never Kill a Boy on the First Date)
Willow
1)Breaking and entering the morgue (Never Kill a Boy on the First Date)
Xander
1)Breaking and entering the morgue (Never Kill a Boy on the First Date)
2)Cruelty to animals/Butchering without a license (The Pack)
I thought there would be more, really.

Kyla
03-28-2003, 03:01 PM
Oh god, and Willow has been known to break, enter, and dissect (see: Beauty and the Beasts). That third step has got to be extra against the law.

Miller
03-28-2003, 03:37 PM
On another note-- You should know that Angel spent last summer at the bottom of the ocean, being put there by his son. Sahjahn got away.

Actually, he didn't. Angel wanted revenge on Sahjahn, so he cast a major spell to make him tangible (previously, he had been completely and permanently insubstantial-couldn't touch anything even if he wanted to) so that Angel could kick his ass for what he did to Connor. Sahjahn, as it turned out, was a lot tougher than Angel, but at the last moment, Justine (a freelance vampire hunter who had been tied in with the kidnapping of Connor in the first place) cast a spell on him that imprisoned him in a big vase.

Justine later framed Angel for the murder of Holtz, Connor's surrogate father, which led to Angel being the victim of some illegal dumping off the L.A. coast.

Also, Charles Gunn joined the cast at the end of the first season. Previously, he had been the head of a vampire fighting street gang, before teaming up with Angel etc. to fight the big league evils.

Lastly, Cordelia is now psychic and partly non-human. Well, actually she may be 100% non-human, depending on how next week's episode turns out. Briefly: halfway through season one, they offed Doyle, who was a regular cast member and a psychic half-demon. Somehow, before he died, he passed his psychic powers onto Cordy. However, being human, Cordy's visions were gradually killing her. She was given the opportunity to lose them, but decided that she would rather keep them and help Angel for as long as possible. In return, The Powers That Be made her part-demon, so the visions wouldn't blow off the back of her skull. Later, she was promoted to Divine Being, but apparently got demoted for meddling in the mortal world by helping Angel out of a tight spot. There followed some amnesia, Oedipal conflicts, and now we've got Big Bad Cordy and her Doomsday progeny.

Lastly, Wesley used to be Faith's watcher before they canned his ass for letting his Slayer turn evil. He used to be comic relief, but later turned into a genuine badass after taking over Angel investigations while Angel was on a Brooding Sabbatical. Then he turned into a slightly evil badass after he kidnapped Connor and got shunned by the rest of the gang. However, he was the guy who dredged Angel back up from the sea floor, and now everything seems to have been forgiven.

Confused? Wait 'til someone tries to explain how Angel had a kid in the first place.

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