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View Full Version : A little star wars nitpick. Military Starships


HPL
06-26-2005, 06:43 PM
I've been re-playing X-wing after getting the Collectors series(the Win 95/98 one with the enhanced graphics).

I'm enjoying it a lot more then before, but one thing came to mind that bothers me about the nature of the Rebellion and might be a bit of a plot hole

Okay, unlike many rebellions, the star wars rebels have very good equipment. Top of the line military grade stuff. I understand well enough that the Galaxy in a dangerous place and that there's a civilian market for weapons(X-wings, Z-95's, Corvettes). All of these are ideal anti-pirate protection, I would imagine.

However, the cap ships are going to be a bit harder to justify as part of a civilian arms market. Particulary the big Mon Calamari Crusiers. The problemswith those I can see are:

1.) They're pretty damn big. You can't just build those out of spare parts in a junkyard. You need full blown shipyards to manufacture those, and those aren't easy to hide.

2.) As far as I know, only the Rebellion actually uses those. Probably because they're very expensive and nobody else(other then the empire) can afford them.

3.) I'd be hard pressed how one buys a Calamri Crusier with civilian purposes in mind(other then converting them to cargo haulers in like Heir to the Empire, but it'd probably be cheaper just to purchase bulk freightors for that purpose).

Add of these up, and it would seem a no-brainer that the Empire could probably track the rebellion fairly easily by finding the locations these crusiers are being built, going to the Mon Calmaris and saying "We know the Rebels are buying your cap ships. We demand you check backgrounds throughly before selling them to people. We'd also like you to help us track buyers we suspect are selling to the rebellion. We'll be leaving a garrison or two to make sure you comply" If the Mon Calmaris are part of the Alliance, it would be easy enough to Seize their shipyards and arrest those in charge of making the ships with the jusitifcation "You're giving material aid to terrorists."(and they'd be right).

The market for Mon Calamari Crusiers can't be that big, particulary with the Empire as the Sole Military Superpower in the galaxy. And on Earth, it would be like Terrorists buying Aircraft Carriers. It isn't going to be hard to track them and it sure as hell isn't going to be hard figuring out who sold it to them.

I don't know much of the expanded universe stuff, so maybe I'm wrong. And I know "It's not that kind of movie" but when you have the rebels with such big ships, you've got to deal with such things.

Bosstone
06-26-2005, 07:05 PM
I don't believe it's so much the Rebellion buying the Mon Cal cruisers as it is the Mon Cals lending them the ships when they threw their lot in with the Rebellion. Pooling resources and all that. Note that Admiral Ackbar, a Mon Cal, is leading the strike on the second Death Star. The Mon Calamaris did more than simply supply the Rebellion with ships - they're actually a significant portion of the Rebellion themselves.

The cruisers themselves were civilian ships beforehand (I can't remember their specific function off the top of my head except maybe luxury liner), and so were already built and spaceworthy when the Mon Cals joined the Rebellion. After that they simply got retrofitted for combat.

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor
06-26-2005, 07:07 PM
There is an extensive network of pirates, hijackers & smugglers in the SW Galaxy. And that means support facilities, including drydocks.

Many local governments may be offering clandestine support, & business cartels likewise.

And Space is big! Vast uninhabited systems to hide in. Asteroid belts offer concealment, minefield-type protection, & raw materials. Hollow one out for the metals/minerals in it, & then pressurize the cave for a factory/drydock/whatever.

BraheSilver
06-26-2005, 07:09 PM
The EU reason is that Mon Calamari ships were fairly state-of-the-art luxury cruise liners before the war, and the guns and such were bolted on later. I don't think there's anything in the movies that explains anything about them.

Declan
06-27-2005, 01:34 AM
Okay, unlike many rebellions, the star wars rebels have very good equipment. Top of the line military grade stuff. I understand well enough that the Galaxy in a dangerous place and that there's a civilian market for weapons(X-wings, Z-95's, Corvettes). All of these are ideal anti-pirate protection, I would imagine.

However, the cap ships are going to be a bit harder to justify as part of a civilian arms market. Particulary the big Mon Calamari Crusiers.


Actually the X-wings and Y-wings from incom would be concidered obsolete or second or third eschelon equipment, but still viable.

Sorta like F-4 phantoms and F-105 thunderchiefs fighting against eagles and toms ,and as from watching the phantom menace and clones , some of the federal planets have their own militaries to some degree.

Declan

HPL
06-27-2005, 03:07 AM
Actually the X-wings and Y-wings from incom would be concidered obsolete or second or third eschelon equipment, but still viable.

Sorta like F-4 phantoms and F-105 thunderchiefs fighting against eagles and toms ,and as from watching the phantom menace and clones , some of the federal planets have their own militaries to some degree.

Declan

At least in the X-wing games, it seems like they are fairly recent, at least per the battle of Yavin.

And they're still a bit better then TIE fighters, which may be more advanced, but they are seriously lacking in features(That's not to say one can't make a mess in one, but they don't do well by themselves like a rebel ship does).

Tarrsk
06-27-2005, 03:16 AM
And they're still a bit better then TIE fighters, which may be more advanced, but they are seriously lacking in features(That's not to say one can't make a mess in one, but they don't do well by themselves like a rebel ship does).

I think the reasoning here is that the Rebels have far fewer pilots than the Empire, which can afford to lose TIE pilots by the bazillions. Rebel pilots are a rare commodity, and it's worth it to the Alliance to spend extra on their vehicles, in order to increase the chances that their pilots will come home intact.

cckerberos
06-27-2005, 04:20 AM
At least in the X-wing games, it seems like they are fairly recent, at least per the battle of Yavin.

And they're still a bit better then TIE fighters, which may be more advanced, but they are seriously lacking in features(That's not to say one can't make a mess in one, but they don't do well by themselves like a rebel ship does).
Despite their portrayal in the games, they don't seem to be significantly more durable than TIE Fighters in the movies. Luke's wingmen in Star Wars get blown up fairly easily.

I might be wrong, but I suspect that the "X-Wing > TIE Fighter" thing was just made up for the games to excuse having the player's ship blow up countless Imperial fighters.

HPL
06-27-2005, 04:42 AM
Despite their portrayal in the games, they don't seem to be significantly more durable than TIE Fighters in the movies. Luke's wingmen in Star Wars get blown up fairly easily.
.

Didn't the X-wings in Star Wars have their shields set the wrong way and then got hit from behind?

Not to mention they were making the trench run and nobody was bothering to cover them(Cover as it "stay somewhat above and behind as to be able to keep TIES from getting a clean shot at the guys making the trench run " not "Sit there and let Darth Vader fire lasers up your ass")

clairobscur
06-27-2005, 04:47 AM
Add of these up, and it would seem a no-brainer that the Empire could probably track the rebellion fairly easily by finding the locations these crusiers are being built, .


Play someday the old "Star war rebellion" (if I'm not mistaken about the title), and you'll soon notice it's not that easy to find out where the rebellion is building its fucking Mon Calamari cruisers. ;)

HPL
06-27-2005, 04:58 AM
Play someday the old "Star war rebellion" (if I'm not mistaken about the title), and you'll soon notice it's not that easy to find out where the rebellion is building its fucking Mon Calamari cruisers. ;)

I've tried. The game felt more like a chore then a joy, and I never made it that far.

I made it farther in Force Commander but even that game had it's own flaws.

HPL
06-27-2005, 05:08 AM
And Space is big! Vast uninhabited systems to hide in. Asteroid belts offer concealment, minefield-type protection, & raw materials. Hollow one out for the metals/minerals in it, & then pressurize the cave for a factory/drydock/whatever.

Okay, the hidden drydock thing I'll accept, but it doesn't seem like the Star Wars galaxy is that big, realtively speaking. Hell, Tatoonie is out on the Outer Rim and yet it doesn't to take long to get there and back in the prequels. The Jedi get to Geonosis in a day or so after Obi-wan's message is sent to Corescant.

cckerberos
06-27-2005, 05:10 AM
Didn't the X-wings in Star Wars have their shields set the wrong way and then got hit from behind?
Hmm... you may be right. They're told to put their deflectors to "double front," earlier and they may never have corrected that. However, the Y-Wings (which, if the games are correct, should be able to take more hits than either an X-Wing or a TIE Fighter) are told to "stabilize [their] rear deflectors" immediately before Vader and crew hit them.

I'd have to rewatch the movies to be sure, but I've never gotten the impression that the Rebel fighters are shown to be significantly better than the Imperial ones.

Scissorjack
06-27-2005, 05:34 AM
The EU reason is that Mon Calamari ships were fairly state-of-the-art luxury cruise liners before the war, and the guns and such were bolted on later.

There go the gift-shop and the shuffle-board deck. Ah, well, we must make sacrifices in wartime. The restaurant? The bar?! Nooo! Not the casino too! Is there no end to this madness and horror?

Odesio
06-27-2005, 06:45 AM
We're talking about an empire with hundreds of billions of citizens and presumably there are plenty more outside their direct sphere of influence (outer rim). Given how many systems are in existence I don't imagine it's difficult to hide a moderate shipyard.

Marc

Finagle
06-27-2005, 08:03 AM
Well, I'm assuming the galaxy was not particularly pacified and that the Empire had only a tenuous grip on large parts of it. You don't build a Death Star (twice!) that's the size of a moon and capable of destroying planets if you don't have a target for it. Cause even for a galaxy-sized Empire, you have to dig pretty deep into the exchequer to pay for one of those puppies.

bouv
06-27-2005, 09:25 AM
Okay, the hidden drydock thing I'll accept, but it doesn't seem like the Star Wars galaxy is that big, realtively speaking. Hell, Tatoonie is out on the Outer Rim and yet it doesn't to take long to get there and back in the prequels. The Jedi get to Geonosis in a day or so after Obi-wan's message is sent to Corescant.

That speaks nothing of the size of the galaxy, only of the speed of Hyperspace travel. The galaxy itself is stull huge (and in SW, thety might even travel between galaxies, I'm not sure.) Anyways, Hyperspace is (seemingly) thousands of times faster than Warp Speed from ST.

toadspittle
06-27-2005, 09:36 AM
I've been re-playing X-wing after getting the Collectors series(the Win 95/98 one with the enhanced graphics).

I'm enjoying it a lot more then before, but one thing came to mind that bothers me about the nature of the Rebellion and might be a bit of a plot hole

Okay, unlike many rebellions, the star wars rebels have very good equipment. Top of the line military grade stuff. I understand well enough that the Galaxy in a dangerous place and that there's a civilian market for weapons(X-wings, Z-95's, Corvettes). All of these are ideal anti-pirate protection, I would imagine.

However, the cap ships are going to be a bit harder to justify as part of a civilian arms market. Particulary the big Mon Calamari Crusiers. The problemswith those I can see are:

1.) They're pretty damn big. You can't just build those out of spare parts in a junkyard. You need full blown shipyards to manufacture those, and those aren't easy to hide.

2.) As far as I know, only the Rebellion actually uses those. Probably because they're very expensive and nobody else(other then the empire) can afford them.

3.) I'd be hard pressed how one buys a Calamri Crusier with civilian purposes in mind(other then converting them to cargo haulers in like Heir to the Empire, but it'd probably be cheaper just to purchase bulk freightors for that purpose).

Add of these up, and it would seem a no-brainer that the Empire could probably track the rebellion fairly easily by finding the locations these crusiers are being built, going to the Mon Calmaris and saying "We know the Rebels are buying your cap ships. We demand you check backgrounds throughly before selling them to people. We'd also like you to help us track buyers we suspect are selling to the rebellion. We'll be leaving a garrison or two to make sure you comply" If the Mon Calmaris are part of the Alliance, it would be easy enough to Seize their shipyards and arrest those in charge of making the ships with the jusitifcation "You're giving material aid to terrorists."(and they'd be right).

The market for Mon Calamari Crusiers can't be that big, particulary with the Empire as the Sole Military Superpower in the galaxy. And on Earth, it would be like Terrorists buying Aircraft Carriers. It isn't going to be hard to track them and it sure as hell isn't going to be hard figuring out who sold it to them.

I don't know much of the expanded universe stuff, so maybe I'm wrong. And I know "It's not that kind of movie" but when you have the rebels with such big ships, you've got to deal with such things.


Here's how the rebel ships break down:

- Z-95 - seriously outdated fighter craft, ubiquitous throughout the galaxy (I'm actually surprised they didn't stick any into Ep. III)

- Y-Wing - slightly outdated fighter-bomber, but a pretty tough, heavily armored workhorse

- X-Wing - supposedly brand-new just before Ep. IV, and redirected by manufacturer InCom from its original destination (the Empire) to the Rebels; after this point, they work for the Rebels

- A-Wing - Really brand-new, top-of-the-line fighter, designed by InCom to kill most TIE fighters (and pretty good at it)

- B-Wing -Really brand-new, verging on experimental, capital-ship-killer designed for the Rebels

- Mon Calamari Cruisers - converted cruise ships, as mentioned

- Nebulon B Frigates (the medical frigate at the end of ESB) - unclear, but my impression is that these serious capital ships (which are big enough to launch fighters) are stolen from the Empire, possibly by defectors, etc.

- Corellian Corvettes (like Leia's "Blockade Runner" at start of Ep. IV) - ubiquitous light capital ships, sold to everyone and anyone throughout the galaxy

I think that's it (except for the Corellian freighters like the Millennium Falcon, which are shown as ubiquitous in the games, but unique in the movies).

smiling bandit
06-27-2005, 09:50 AM
Actually the X-wings and Y-wings from incom would be concidered obsolete or second or third eschelon equipment, but still viable.


The official scoop, from a variety of sources, is this:

X-Wings were an experimental design off the old Z-95 headhunter (although a similar vessel appears in Revenge of the Sith; this does not spoil anything about the movie). They weren't a top-rated fighter all-around, but it was made to be a solid Space Superiority Fighter.

While the Imperial Tie is often considered less advanced, it is much faster and still carries plenty of punch. It apparently lacks serious shields, but as those seemed to only matter for about one pilot in a dozen at best, you can understand the Empire's lack of interest. The Tie Interceptor (pointed front wings) was a new version built to counter Rebel raiding tactics. It's far faster than anything short of the MIllenium Falcon and has a little extra firepower.

Y-Wings were an older design, built hardy if somewhat unspectacular, performance wise. They are a lot more reliable than the X-Wing, but they aren't optimized for any one role.

Oddly, I've heard the Star Wars galaxy is actually supposed to be a bit bigger than ours.

MMI
06-27-2005, 11:35 AM
The biggest difference between rebel starfighters and all but the most advanced empire stuff: rebel starfighters all have hyperdrives. TIE fighters, for the most part do not. I do not doubt that it is far cheaper to buy droves of superior fighters to carry out raids than to buy carriers for everything. Especially given the difference in logistical footprint. Given that (in my experience anyways) modest numbers of advanced attack craft (Y- and B-wings especially) can take down or disable everything smaller than a star destroyer without too much trouble.

I imagine the upgrades to the Mon Calamari cruisers were started under the description of "improved anti-piracy" or some such, perhaps even using the justification of rebel raids themselves to justify the need for ships armed for self defense. ("Why exactly do you need such heavy weaponry and shielding? The rebels have no capital ships." "Not yet, no. Maybe they'll get some soon though")

Another point is the awesome industrial potential in the star wars universe. In the few brief years between II and III vast fleets of mini proto-star destroyers were developed and churned out. Assuming that the trade federation and its seperatist allies were not the only private military force in existence there must be a fair number of yards that build the heavy stuff. Plus there are planets outside the empire that will build you a whole freakin' army if you pay them. A few key defectors with access to the right databases and a huge shipyard planet just disappears, unless the Imperial high command knows what they are looking for (sure, local officials may wonder why they no longer get the gubment business, but given the vast number of private orders don't ask too many questions).

Push You Down
06-27-2005, 12:08 PM
Play someday the old "Star war rebellion" (if I'm not mistaken about the title), and you'll soon notice it's not that easy to find out where the rebellion is building its fucking Mon Calamari cruisers. ;)

A couple of weeks ago I brought this game out of storage... I really like it but the spcae battles part doesn't get good until both side have ships with the massive gravity generators in order to prevent retreats.

If you put Threepio or the Imp Drid in charge of everything but the shipyards you can focus on missions and fleet building.

Evil Captor
06-27-2005, 12:16 PM
One of the things about the Star Wars movies that I've really liked, esp. 4-6, is that they do a very good job of showing the kind of wealth and power that would exist in a galaxy-wide interstellar trade empire with ships that can travel many, many times the speed of light ("making the Kessel run in 3 parsecs" y'know). The societies in Star Wars are wealthy beyond our ability to comprehend, even though some on the room live in poverty, and as slaves.

What's more, construction of spaceships might be relatively easy, if you do it in space. You just set up a big mylar lens near enough to your sun to get some really ferocious heat going at the focal point, then boost a few nickel iron asteroids. You run the asteroid through the focal point, and everything melts. If you spin it as you melt it, stuff centrifuges out by weight, meaning you get your nickel and your iron and your other elements separated out for you very easily. You let it cool, take it to another giant lens where you combine the various elements to produce Super Steel, Endurium IV or whatever kind of substance you like to build with. Finally, you take a big blob of the Endurium to another giant lens, where you melt it down again, but this time you inject an inert gas into its center, producing a giant bubble of Endurium (remember, there's no gravity to make it take a particular shape, so liquids tend to become spheres. It would probably be possible to construct the giant shell with a series of concentric shells inside it. Now you just let it cool, pump it full of breathable atmosphere, and send your finishing crew in to hang the drywall and such.

Fast, easy cheap giant spaceships.

Push You Down
06-27-2005, 02:26 PM
Oh I was going to mention....since someone asked... The Nebulon B Frigates (the ship they are on at the end of TESB, atleast in the Rebellion game is supposed to be a fighter killer.

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor
06-27-2005, 05:21 PM
What's more, construction of spaceships might be relatively easy, if you do it in space. You just set up a big mylar lens near enough to your sun to get some really ferocious heat going at the focal point, then boost a few nickel iron asteroids. You run the asteroid through the focal point, and everything melts.

NIX! NEIN! NYET! NO! Bad Evil Captor!

Think!

Lens Operator has wife. Wifey tells Lens Op she's leaving him. Lens Op comes to work drunk, decides to get even. Finds co-ordinates of city where Wifey & new boyfriend live, & then...POOF! Who needs a Death Star? :eek:

Raguleader
06-27-2005, 05:55 PM
The biggest difference between rebel starfighters and all but the most advanced empire stuff: rebel starfighters all have hyperdrives. TIE fighters, for the most part do not. I do not doubt that it is far cheaper to buy droves of superior fighters to carry out raids than to buy carriers for everything. Especially given the difference in logistical footprint. Given that (in my experience anyways) modest numbers of advanced attack craft (Y- and B-wings especially) can take down or disable everything smaller than a star destroyer without too much trouble

Makes sense from a Rebel standpoint. SURE they could build a big space carrier and launch swarms of small, cheap fighters (ala TIEs) to attack their enemies, but all it takes is one Star Destroyer where you don't want it to be when you jump out of Hyperspace (or, goodness forbid, when you have the hyperdrive pulled for repairs) to totally ruin your ability to strike anywhere, or even for your fighters to escape to fight another day. (You ever wonder why they don't seem to have dedicated spacecraft carriers in the SW movies?)

With hyperdrive-capable fighters, you can just put them on any freighter or frigate or cruiser that has a shuttle bay, or even a based hidden away among some old temples on a moon somewhere, load them up with fuel, proton torpedos, Chewie Tobacco and Yoda Pops, and send your pilots off to strike targets dozens of lightyears away.

And since you gotta make these fighters bigger and with a better power generator anyways, you might as well put some extra guns on them, maybe a lil bit of cargo room or some torpedo launchers, and you have yourself a fairly nifty strike fighter. Not as fast or maneuverable as those cockpits with engines strapped to them, but with the armament to make up for it. Use some good tactics (like the ol' Thatch Weave that Wedge used in EpIV) and you can even take down the faster more agile fighters on favorable terms.

Also, in the prequels, it's worth noting that the smaller, more agile fighters prevalent in that era are incapable of hyperdrive without external support (such as Obi-Wan's Hyper-Sled ring thingymadohickey) and the hyper-drive capable fighters (such as one vaguely familiar looking one in EpIII) are big, heavily armed, multi-crewmembered beasts.

On the subject of the Mon-Cal cruisers, IIRC, the Return of the Jedi novelization described the cruisers as having been built under the guise of civilian starliners, with all the necessary structural and power supply needs for quickly refitting them for combat built-in. Their bulbous hull design also implies a design where components (such as turbolaser emplacements or even sensor domes/sheild generators like those prominently featured on the superstructures of star destroyers) might have been added on in a post-factory modification. For a similar example, look at the nose section of a modern-day B-52 bomber, where they have all sorts of interesting blisters and bulges where they added various enhancements that wouldn't fit inside the body that the plane was built with in the early 60's.

Max the Immortal
06-28-2005, 12:14 AM
Lens Operator has wife. Wifey tells Lens Op she's leaving him. Lens Op comes to work drunk, decides to get even. Finds co-ordinates of city where Wifey & new boyfriend live, & then...POOF! Who needs a Death Star? :eek:

They wouldn't necessarily use one big lens. You'd only need a lens big enough to melt the asteroids. They could base the melting near the star, and use blasters to break big asteroids into manageable chunks, further reducing the needed lens size. Nowhere near the frying power of a Death Star.

msmith537
06-28-2005, 12:40 AM
I always got the impression that the X-Wing was the equivalent of an F-14 Tomcan and the Tie Fighters were like crappy Russian Migs from Tom Gun (Y-Wings are like A-6 Intruders). The Migs(TIEs) are smaller and faster but the Tomcat (X-Wing) has better avionics, shields and pilots enhanced by sweet righteous awsomeness.

The Calimari cruisers realy do look like they were originally built for something non-military, unlike the Star Destroyer, which is obviously built for star destroyin'.

Also, I got the impression that it was more a civil war than an insurgency. I mean there wasn't even an Imperial presence on Bespin until Solo showed up.

smiling bandit
06-28-2005, 01:05 AM
Of course, given that the entire rebellion could manage to get about 6 actual capital ships for their huge attack on the Emperor himself, one wonders about the actual power of the movement.

HPL
06-28-2005, 02:38 AM
Of course, given that the entire rebellion could manage to get about 6 actual capital ships for their huge attack on the Emperor himself, one wonders about the actual power of the movement.

I keep wondering why they brought their transports into battle(Those bulbos ships you see in Empire). I understand bringing all their warships, but transports are basically just big fat targets. Maybe they wanted to distract the Tie Fighters?

smiling bandit
06-28-2005, 10:03 AM
Well, they probably did have solid shields. And they may have carried marines. Some books mentioned the Rebels capturing several Star Destroyers through (very costly) boarding actions.

Raguleader
06-28-2005, 10:13 AM
I keep wondering why they brought their transports into battle(Those bulbos ships you see in Empire). I understand bringing all their warships, but transports are basically just big fat targets. Maybe they wanted to distract the Tie Fighters?

Well, it's possible they could have been fitted with at least defensive weaponry for support purposes. They could also be carrying some kind of special electronics suites (communications, sensors, ECM, whatever) in at least some of the cases. IIRC, in the RotJ novelization, there were mentions of freighters loaded with high-explosives being aimed at Star Destroyers with the crews of the transports taking to the escape pods at the last minute.

Other theories that I think of as I sit here: They could be intended as CSAR ships, grabbing escape pods and ejected pilots during the battle so they can be carried off to safety out of the line of fire. They could just be intended to induce sensor clutter, to maybe cause confusion amongst the Imperial officers as to just how large the fleet is.

And of course, you've gotta get that "Most ships on screen" record SOMEHOW.

Evil Captor
06-28-2005, 10:36 AM
NIX! NEIN! NYET! NO! Bad Evil Captor!

Think!

Lens Operator has wife. Wifey tells Lens Op she's leaving him. Lens Op comes to work drunk, decides to get even. Finds co-ordinates of city where Wifey & new boyfriend live, & then...POOF! Who needs a Death Star? :eek:

I'm afraid it's already on the table, Bosda. It's not my idea. I got it from a book on how to build industries in space. It's a fairly simple idea.

MMI
06-28-2005, 11:10 AM
I keep wondering why they brought their transports into battle(Those bulbos ships you see in Empire). I understand bringing all their warships, but transports are basically just big fat targets. Maybe they wanted to distract the Tie Fighters?

When you have everything but hulls, you use all the hulls you got. Not to Godwinize, but if you look at the German war effort in World War II, they put the biggest gun they could fit on every lame ass chassis they could find to produce delightfully mediocre fighting vehicles.

Raguleader
06-28-2005, 11:24 AM
When you have everything but hulls, you use all the hulls you got. Not to Godwinize, but if you look at the German war effort in World War II, they put the biggest gun they could fit on every lame ass chassis they could find to produce delightfully mediocre fighting vehicles.

It's not Godwinizing until somebody mentions Hitler.

...

:smack:

Evil Captor
06-28-2005, 11:41 AM
When you have everything but hulls, you use all the hulls you got. Not to Godwinize, but if you look at the German war effort in World War II, they put the biggest gun they could fit on every lame ass chassis they could find to produce delightfully mediocre fighting vehicles.

I read some histories of WWII which indicated that the German Panzers owned every tank in WWII except the Russians T34s.

Zebra
06-28-2005, 02:24 PM
A couple of weeks ago I brought this game out of storage... I really like it but the spcae battles part doesn't get good until both side have ships with the massive gravity generators in order to prevent retreats.

If you put Threepio or the Imp Drid in charge of everything but the shipyards you can focus on missions and fleet building.


Ugh, I hate this game and I've played to completion too many times. For me the big problem is that the space battles are usually one sided. Their side for the first third of the game, then I whoop them in every battle in the second third. The final third is either spent hunting down the Emp and Vader or hunting down the rebel base. It was virtually never that tactics won the battle.

Quartz
06-28-2005, 02:55 PM
As we see in SW1, the Trade Federation have their own fleet, so by extension others may have their own fleets. Thus I see the old Republic and then the Empire as more like the Imperium of Traveller - the Republic / Empire controls the space between leaving planets and systems to their own devices - with the Empire being very much more heavy-handed.

sturmhauke
06-28-2005, 04:44 PM
I read some histories of WWII which indicated that the German Panzers owned every tank in WWII except the Russians T34s.
I've heard it said that American tanks were reliable and cheap but underpowered, while German tanks were mighty but expensive and prone to engine troubles.

HPL
06-28-2005, 04:46 PM
I read some histories of WWII which indicated that the German Panzers owned every tank in WWII except the Russians T34s.

The Panthers and Tigers sure, but they also created some really crappy tanks as well. The "Maus" comes to mind, which was huge, so much that it was too heavy for most bridges and No engines existed to drive it.

Raguleader
06-28-2005, 05:45 PM
I read some histories of WWII which indicated that the German Panzers owned every tank in WWII except the Russians T34s.

Heh, old German proverb: "A german tank can destroy ten American tanks easily. The eleventh American tank always gets you."

Corolary to proverb: "There is always an eleventh American tank."

Basically, the main tank built by the US during WWII, the M4 Sherman, was cheap, reliable, and easy to drive and build. IIRC, it was one of the first motor vehicles to feature automatic transmission. Downsides were that it wasn't very thick skinned and it's gun was kinda weak, but it was swift for a WWII tank. I think around 44 or so, they came up with the M26 Pershing, which was the first Heavy American tank and was a big improvement over the M4, but they decided it would be better to keep pumping out the M4s in volume than it would be to institute the kind of delay that would be involved in switching over entirely to the M26.

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