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Sampiro
06-29-2005, 10:07 PM
Did anybody else see 30 Days tonight? I didn't see the first episode so I don't know how this episode compares.

First off: W. Va. Christian guy is a doofus. How on Earth can you not know that Islam, Judaism and Christianity all derive from the same religious tradition? (I won't go into whether the God of Christianity and Allah are the same as that's a whole other debate, but this guy seemed surprised that Christians and Jews were mentioned in the Qur'an.)

Also, while I completely understand why a devout Christian wouldn't want to say a prayer in Arabic praising Muhammad, why didn't they compromise and rather than have him stand in the corner contemplating his navel 5 times a day have him go off to himself and say a Christian prayer? Woulda worked for me.

As for having to take your shoes off at the airport, I'm a blue eyed fairskinned blonde who dresses like any American slob when he flies and I always have to take off my shoes and belt in the airport and I get wanded about half the time. (The low point: the time my pants fell down in the Albuquerque airport, but thank Allah for boxer briefs.)

A couple of things I thought were somewhere between ironic and disrespectful to Islam:

---picturing Muhammad (as a cartoon character, no less) when Islam does not believe in representations of humans in general and Muhammad in particular

---having a liquor company as sponsor of the episode

Also, the host stated (in the same cartoon) that the difference twixt Jews and Christians is that Christians and Jews both believe that God will send His Son as a Messiah, but Christians accept Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God while Jews are "still waiting for the Messiah and Son of God to come". Please correct me if I'm wrong, but do Jews believe the Messiah is the Son of God? I thought that was a uniquely Christian concept (though I could be wrong).

Curious to read other people's thoughts on the episode.

KJ
06-29-2005, 11:34 PM
It comes on in 15 minutes for me, so I'll post here once I've seen the episode. But I saw the first episode and I definitely enjoyed it. (Morgan Spurlock spends 30 days living on minimum wage, and I thought it was pretty insightful, and as a college student I could definitely identify. But at one point, he's really disappointed that he got charged a $300 fee for using the emergency room. Well, duh! Don't go to the emergency room if you've just got a sore wrist!) I think it's a great idea for a TV show, and I can't wait to see more episodes.

Seven
06-30-2005, 12:32 AM
I've seen the two first shows (Minimum Wage and Fountian of Youth) and thought they were both great shows. I've got tonights on the Tivo and haven't watched it yet.

I think he's doing a good job with these but sadly I think the people who need to learn the points Morgan is making won't bother to watch the show.

If you head over to the website for the show and read the messageboard you'll know what I mean. It's ugly.

KJ
06-30-2005, 01:02 AM
After seeing the episode, I think this is a show that needs to be made. One time I was at a restaurant with a friend and the subject of Islam came up. He's an otherwise intelligent, open-minded guy, but the first thing he said was "So, let me get this straight...the terrorists that want to kill us, are they all Muslim?"
"That's not really what Islam is all about..."
"So, wait, do they believe that Christianity is bad? Or that Americans are bad?"
"Are you serious? You really know that little about Islam?"
I give him credit for at least asking questions and wanting to know more, but sheesh! You should at least know which religion "Five pillars" refers to. The problem is that he doesn't know any Muslims and neither do any of his friends, so all he knows about the religion comes from stereotypes and misinformation. And he's not alone; I was downright angry after seeing the interviews they did on the show with people who said "Oh yeah? Well, who was responsible for 9/11 huh?" and who couldn't get their heads around the fact that that's not what the religion is. It made me sad because I know for every person they interviewed on the show, there are thousands of people who share their beliefs. :(

threeorange
06-30-2005, 04:54 AM
Also, the host stated (in the same cartoon) that the difference twixt Jews and Christians is that Christians and Jews both believe that God will send His Son as a Messiah, but Christians accept Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God while Jews are "still waiting for the Messiah and Son of God to come". Please correct me if I'm wrong, but do Jews believe the Messiah is the Son of God? I thought that was a uniquely Christian concept (though I could be wrong).

I suspect the cartoon was made for the type of uninformed people who were being interviewed by Spurlock, and he thought the descriptions had to be put in the simplest possible terms.

Qadgop the Mercotan
06-30-2005, 07:43 AM
Also, the host stated (in the same cartoon) that the difference twixt Jews and Christians is that Christians and Jews both believe that God will send His Son as a Messiah, but Christians accept Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God while Jews are "still waiting for the Messiah and Son of God to come". Please correct me if I'm wrong, but do Jews believe the Messiah is the Son of God? I thought that was a uniquely Christian concept (though I could be wrong).
Um, I don't think that's what Jews believe. The jewish messiah is expected to be fully human, and not the son of God, IIRC. Certainly there are more knowledgeable dopers here on the topic that can correct/elaborate at need.

FriarTed
06-30-2005, 07:47 AM
I didn't watch the show, figuring it would be "dumb C'tian learns & grows by devoting himself to the religion of peace for a month", but hearing there was a cartoon makes me regret the decision.

RE Messiah/Son of God- Jews don't believe Messiah will be the "Son of God" as a semi/Divine being taking on human flesh, but only in the sense that "Son of God" is a legit title for a faithful Israelite or the Davidic King ("son of God", rather than "Son of God".)

Fringe
06-30-2005, 08:40 AM
I very much enjoyed this show. It leaves me confounded that people can openly know so little about Islam, yet assume the worst of it and it's adherents. I suppose I've forgotten that most people are not willing to learn about any other way of life, belief structure, or culture that is outside their sphere of what is "normal".

Sampiro
06-30-2005, 10:27 AM
I was glad that he (the Christian) used Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh as counter examples when asked about terrorists being indicative of all Muslims. I was also surprised that the Asian fellow was taking him to task about the violence of all Muslims- he probably wouldn't appreciate it at all if somebody assumed because he's Asian he was a VietCong or one of Mao's enforcers or the son of somebody who bombed the Arizona and you'd think that as a fellow minority he'd be a bit more compassionate about stereotyping.

I thought the Christian came off well, being respectful of his hosts while remaining true to his own beliefs. I think the heated discussion on why Arabs in America don't "apologize" for September 11 was the best part of the show.

yellowval
06-30-2005, 10:49 AM
Say what you will about us (for those who think anyone who doesn't know what religion the five pillars refers to is an idiot—sheesh!), but my husband and I learned a ton by watching this show. We've never been those Muslim=terrorist kind of people, and knew that their religion was really about peace, but knew little else about the religion. Out here in the middle of nowhere, there's very little opportunity to meet Muslims. We both found what we learned extremely fascinating, and were both appalled (yet, sadly, not that surprised) at how ignorant the people Morgan interviewed were (even more ignorant than us!). We also loved the show's concept, and will be sure to watch again next week.

Sampiro
06-30-2005, 11:02 AM
We also loved the show's concept, and will be sure to watch again next week.

Which is about a homophobic Marine who agrees to live with a gay man in the Castro district of S.F.. That should be interesting. (Personally I'd have opted for a more middle-of-the-road gay guy- midtown Atlanta, perhaps, or even a couple of out accountants living in MediumCity, YourState, but the extreme is better for ratings.)

yellowval
06-30-2005, 11:18 AM
Yeah, the next one ought to get me really riled up. In the previews the homophobic Marine was in (I assume) a gay bar, and made the comment, "This is disgusting" or something to that effect. I have the feeling I'm going to want to jump into the TV and strangle the guy. There are a few people I'd love to chain to my couch (not for that, you pervs) and watch it with me.

Happy Lendervedder
06-30-2005, 11:22 AM
Man, I really wanted to see this, as I'm from Dearborn and you don't see Dearborn featured in too many TV shows.

Unfortunately, the hotel I'm at has the worst cable ever (9 channels). Guess I'll have to wait for the DVD.



Happy

amarinth
06-30-2005, 11:25 AM
I thought it was ridiculous that it took two weeks for someone to finally give him a translation of the prayer, especially if he kept asking for it (The first Imam bugged me, "it's the same thing," well, no. He needed to do a better job of explaining both the similarities and the differences instead of just brushing it all over.)

I liked the segment on the call to prayer.

Sampiro
06-30-2005, 11:34 AM
For a totally vapid comment, I wish we had one of those Dearborn Arab clothing stores near where I live. Middle Eastern clothing just looks so comfortable. (My mother's Pakistani neighbor actually gave her a couple of his outfits because she'd complimented them- the problem is that he's 5'4 and about 120 lbs and both of us were that size in utero.)

Edward The Head
06-30-2005, 12:36 PM
Man, I really wanted to see this, as I'm from Dearborn and you don't see Dearborn featured in too many TV shows.

Unfortunately, the hotel I'm at has the worst cable ever (9 channels). Guess I'll have to wait for the DVD.



Happy

I hope I got it on DVDR last night since I don't stay up that late normally. I haven't watched it yet, but if you shoot me your address I can send you the disk if you don't mind sending it back.

Diogenes the Cynic
06-30-2005, 01:10 PM
I don't think the cartoon guy was supposed to be Mohammed, but just a guy reading the Koran.

I thought the show very engrossing. I started off disliking the Christian guy and I was annoyed by his ignorance, but I gave him credit for sticking with it and really trying to learn something. Some of the best scenes were when he ultimately ended up defending Islam from people he would have agreed with a month earlier. I was appalled by the knee-jerk bigotry and stupidity of a lot of the non-Muslims who were interviewed. It was ridiculous the way people ran away from the Christian guy like he was a terrorist when he going around with the petition.

I did think it was a little misleading in how it presented the Jewish view of the Messiah, and I also thought they could have gone into more detail about the commonalities of Abrahamic religions (they could have mentioned that Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, for instance) but I guess there's only so much you can do in a one hour show.

Next week should be interesting, but I agree the purpose might be better served by placing the homophobic Marine in a less cliched environment.

Scott Plaid
06-30-2005, 01:17 PM
(they could have mentioned that Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, for instance) This seems like a good place to use "!?", rather then just "?"

Diogenes the Cynic
06-30-2005, 01:33 PM
This seems like a good place to use "!?", rather then just "?"
That was my response too when I learned it. In Islam, Jesus is revered as a great prophet and they do believe he was born of a virgin. They just don't believe he was God.

Sampiro
06-30-2005, 02:49 PM
That was my response too when I learned it. In Islam, Jesus is revered as a great prophet and they do believe he was born of a virgin. They just don't believe he was God.

They also don't believe he rose from the dead, if I'm not mistaken.

Lochdale
06-30-2005, 03:02 PM
I liked the show (and I like the concept in general) but I was a little disappointed that they didn't challenge some of Islam's most misogynistic tenets. Further, it might have been nice had the history of Islam noted that Mohammed was actually a warlord who spread the faith via conquest and occupation.

While I am on a rant here....

The show dealing with 30 days of minimum wage should have spent some time on immigration and the deflationary affect it has on the minimum wage.

Sampiro
06-30-2005, 03:05 PM
I liked the show (and I like the concept in general) but I was a little disappointed that they didn't challenge some of Islam's most misogynistic tenets.

I thought of this as well. I think the host family was fairly liberal by Muslim standards for she both has a career and contradicted her husband in an argument in front of a male guest.

I did like the explanation one imam gave him about separation of genders in prayer (basically "if you had 100 bowing women in front of you, could you concentrate on God?")

Menocchio
06-30-2005, 03:43 PM
They also don't believe he rose from the dead, if I'm not mistaken.

IIRC, they believe he never died. God yanked him up to heaven and replaced him with an illusion or something, and that was what the Romans crucified.

This both gets around the big miracle of a man returning from the dead, and God rather nastily letting one of his prophets be killed so horribly.

Sampiro
06-30-2005, 04:20 PM
Hmm. I was wrong: they believe in the Ascenscion but not the Crucifixion. Interesting.

From Sura 4 (al-Nesi, or The Women) link (http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch4.html)

155. [The People of the Book] have incurred divine displeasure). In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah. that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah.s Word; We need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-

156. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them.

FlightlessBird
06-30-2005, 04:29 PM
What I found interesting is the host family being put up as an example of American Muslims. How intimidating would that be?! I wouldn't allow myself to be put in the position to be an example of anything. ("And here's where the Jew goes and eats a Bacon Cheese Burger...again...")

But they came off great in my eyes.

DocCathode
06-30-2005, 04:44 PM
I didn't see the show but-



I did think it was a little misleading in how it presented the Jewish view of the Messiah, and I also thought they could have gone into more detail about the commonalities of Abrahamic religions (they could have mentioned that Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, for instance) but I guess there's only so much you can do in a one hour show.

If we made a chart with all three, we'd see that Judaism and Islam have much more in common with each other than either has with Christianity.

Re The Messiah

Yep. The Jewish messiah will not be divine. He'll be a great guy, descended from King David, gather the Jews together and drive our enemies from the promised land. He won't rise from the dead, and dying without accomplishing the messianic chore list is conclusive proof that somebody was not the messiah.

re Translation

Translation of the Koran itself is forbidden. I can understand why Imams would be worried about translating a prayer. Should that prayer appear in the Koran, the prohibition applies and translation would be blasphemy.

Scott Plaid
06-30-2005, 04:51 PM
Yep. The Jewish messiah will not be divine. He'll be a great guy, descended from King David, gather the Jews together and drive our enemies from the promised land. He won't rise from the dead, and dying without accomplishing the messianic chore list is conclusive proof that somebody was not the messiah. You just took three sentences to say what I said with countless posts, starting with page three of Rick Santorum Has Never Read the Bible (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=317697&page=3) (post 109) Could I please ask you how I could have made my point sooner, if you have the time? My email address is in my profile.

Sampiro
06-30-2005, 04:59 PM
Is it true that the prophecies predict the Messiah will be chosen on a Reality Show?

DocCathode
06-30-2005, 05:09 PM
Is it true that the prophecies predict the Messiah will be chosen on a Reality Show?

Not quite. But reality shows are useful for disqualifying candidates. Anybody who eats any non-kosher food (from live maggots, to roast stingray) in a bid to win is probably not the messiah.

One prophecy says that the messiah will enter Jerusalem on a white bronco. I've gotten mixed answers as to whether a Ford Bronco would be okay.

Scott Plaid Growing up, we were the only Jewish family for miles. I've been explaining differences like that since second grade.

Morbo
06-30-2005, 05:39 PM
My favorite part was the very end, as he was leaving.

Host family husband: "Did he just flip me off??!!"

Host family wife: "No, he gave you the peace sign, dude!" :)

astorian
06-30-2005, 09:40 PM
Well, let's see what Morgan Spurlock has learned in his career as a documentarian.

1) He learned that McDonald's is evil.

2) He learned that it's hard living on the minimum wage, and the government should do a lot more for the poor.

3) He learned that Christians are idiots who unfairly demonize Islam.

4) Next week, he's going to learn that gay people are wonderful, and Marines are stupid bigots.

At SOME point, do you think he's ever going to learn something, ANYTHING, that he doesn't already believe with all his heart?

Diogenes the Cynic
06-30-2005, 09:44 PM
Well, let's see what Morgan Spurlock has learned in his career as a documentarian.

1) He learned that McDonald's is evil.
Wrong. He never said that or implied it. Did you even see the movie?
2) He learned that it's hard living on the minimum wage, and the government should do a lot more for the poor.
Is that not true?
3) He learned that Christians are idiots who unfairly demonize Islam.
Wrong. He never said that. Did you even watch the episode?
4) Next week, he's going to learn that gay people are wonderful, and Marines are stupid bigots.
Cite?

Where are you getting this crap?
At SOME point, do you think he's ever going to learn something, ANYTHING, that he doesn't already believe with all his heart?
Why don't you actually watch something and find out rather posting purely from your imagination.

astorian
06-30-2005, 10:29 PM
Wrong. He never said that or implied it. Did you even see the movie?

Is that not true?

Wrong. He never said that. Did you even watch the episode?

Cite?

Where are you getting this crap?

Why don't you actually watch something and find out rather posting purely from your imagination.

Diogenes, face reality: Morgan Spurlock is a likeable, funny, charming, even occasionally entertaining guy. Unfortunately, he's a propagandist, and an utterly ham-fisted one at that. He NEVER makes a documentary without planning out ahead of time how it's going to end and what the moral is going to be.

If you couldn't see EVERY 'twist" and turn, and EVERY ending to EVERYTHING he's ever done a mile away, you're not as intelligent as you think you are.

If Stanley Kramer made documentaries instead of formulaic dramas, he'd be Morgan Spurlock. And if you've ever squirmed through a high-minded piece of well-meaning Stanley Kramer drama, you know that's not praise.

Sampiro
06-30-2005, 10:31 PM
3) He learned that Christians are idiots who unfairly demonize Islam.

I can't speak for the others as I haven't seen them, and the gay-Marine episode hasn't aired yet, but this most certainly is not he case for last night's episode. The Christian was treated quite fairly- he wasn't demonized or made to look an idiot (he's in fact a successful and seemingly very nice, college educated guy whose wife is clearly biracial, thus taking away another stereotype) who, while uninformed about many aspects of Islam, was willing to study them and treat them with respect. I wouldn't say he demonized the religion, though he had some questions as to their beliefs. He actually hugged and kissed (in Islamic style) the second imam he conversed with when he left, then returned home to resume his life as a devout Christian.

Neither were all Muslims painted in glowing colors. There was discussion as to the role of Islam in terrorism (not particularly in depth, but then this isn't a scholarly documentary) and the first imam the Christian conversed with was frankly not a very good teacher to the non-converted. It was surprisingly even handed for commercial television.

Apos
07-01-2005, 12:02 AM
"Diogenes, face reality: "

So... in other words, no, he didn't watch the episode, and he's rambling on clueless as to what he's talking about?

Diogenes the Cynic
07-01-2005, 12:36 AM
Diogenes, face reality: Morgan Spurlock is a likeable, funny, charming, even occasionally entertaining guy. Unfortunately, he's a propagandist, and an utterly ham-fisted one at that. He NEVER makes a documentary without planning out ahead of time how it's going to end and what the moral is going to be.

If you couldn't see EVERY 'twist" and turn, and EVERY ending to EVERYTHING he's ever done a mile away, you're not as intelligent as you think you are.

If Stanley Kramer made documentaries instead of formulaic dramas, he'd be Morgan Spurlock. And if you've ever squirmed through a high-minded piece of well-meaning Stanley Kramer drama, you know that's not praise.
It may be that Spurlock has some specific expectations of where his experiments will lead, but that's not what you asserted in your post. To say that Spurlock tried to portray McDonalds as "evil" is a misrepresentation of what he did in that film.

To say that he portrayed "Christians as idiots who demonize Islam" is also a complete misrepresentation of that episode. The Christian subject of the episode ultimately came off as the probably the most likable person in the show. In fact, I thought his internal struggle with whether he should pray in the Mosque, rather than coming off as bigoted or mean, came off as genuine and sincere anxiety about whether he would be compromising his faith.

The episode showed incidents of anti-Muslim prejudice, hostility and ignorance, but it didn't tag those people as "Christians" and it IS a reality of post 9/11 life for American Muslims that they experience prejudice and suspicion.

Your assertion that Spurlock will portray Marines as "stupid bigots" is completely off base. Taking a subject who self-identifies as anti-gay and who happens to be a Marine is not even close to the same thing as smearing all Marines as bigots.

Seven
07-01-2005, 03:16 AM
re Translation

Translation of the Koran itself is forbidden. I can understand why Imams would be worried about translating a prayer. Should that prayer appear in the Koran, the prohibition applies and translation would be blasphemy.

The Qur'an is written in Arabic and is the word of god. To translate the Qur'an would be to alter gods word.

DataZak
07-01-2005, 03:37 AM
The Qur'an is written in Arabic and is the word of god. To translate the Qur'an would be to alter gods word.

Translating the Quran for learning purposes is okay but in prayer or when reciting the Quran, only uttering the original Arabic is acceptable.

marymargaret
07-01-2005, 12:40 PM
Are they going to re-run the first episode?

rjung
07-01-2005, 02:44 PM
Haven't seen the episode in question, but I saw the first two and loved 'em. I definietely did an :eek: when the "Fountain of Youth" side effects started to roll in...

As for the episode in the OP, I don't understand why Sampiro is surprised. There's always been a lot of ignorance in the US about Islam, and it'd be a trivial effort to go to any American city and find someone willing to spout their ignorance. What IMO is especially unfortunate is that the attacks of 9/11 have only served to magnify that ignorance, instead of reducing it.

Please tell me there's a DVD set of this series once it's over...

marymargaret
07-01-2005, 03:47 PM
Haven't seen the episode in question, but I saw the first two and loved 'em. I definietely did an :eek: when the "Fountain of Youth" side effects started to roll in...





What happened with the fountain of youth?

carnivorousplant
07-01-2005, 03:48 PM
One prophecy says that the messiah will enter Jerusalem on a white bronco. .

I think it's "eatting a white burrito" which is obviously a mistranslation of "eatting white falafel"

;j

rjung
07-01-2005, 07:05 PM
What happened with the fountain of youth?
Liver problems inside of two weeks, low sperm count + dead sperm, wild mood swings, the wife was on the verge of tears near the end, yadda yadda yadda. The doctor going around saying "I have never seen anything like this" was not reassuring...

marymargaret
07-01-2005, 08:28 PM
Liver problems inside of two weeks, low sperm count + dead sperm, wild mood swings, the wife was on the verge of tears near the end, yadda yadda yadda. The doctor going around saying "I have never seen anything like this" was not reassuring...

What type of stuff were they doing/not doing?

NicePete
07-01-2005, 09:21 PM
3) He learned that Christians are idiots who unfairly demonize Islam.


I had never seen any of Morgan Spurlock's work before. I just happened to channel surf by 30 Days and it caught my attention. Luckily it was at the very beginning of the show.

I expected it to just the kind of ham-handed, simplistic dreck that you assumed it would be. But I was pleasantly surprised.

Dave (the Christian) was ignorant at the beginning. It was easy to see him as stupid, but he proved that was not the case. He showed himself to be sincere and interested in learning as much as possible about his host family and their culture.

The Islamic people were not presented as universally flawless and wonderful. The first Imam was pretty much a dope and was unable to provide Dave any useful information or guidance despite Dave's express, repeated pleas. Both Dave and his hosts were portrayed as sincere, devoutly religious people. I ended up respecting Dave far more than I had expected to at the beginning of the program.

Also, the "Did he just flip me off?" moment at the end was just priceless.

So Astorian, with all due respect I have to ask: Did you actually see the show before making your criticism, or were your comments rooted in the fact that you disagree with Morgan Spurlock's politics?

Rilchiam
07-03-2005, 06:49 AM
As for the episode in the OP, I don't understand why Sampiro is surprised. There's always been a lot of ignorance in the US about Islam, and it'd be a trivial effort to go to any American city and find someone willing to spout their ignorance.

Not to mention their ignorance about the Bill of Rights. The people complaining about the call to prayer must not realize that the First Amendment covers freedom of religion as well as freedom of speech.

threeorange
07-04-2005, 05:21 AM
I liked the show (and I like the concept in general) but I was a little disappointed that they didn't challenge some of Islam's most misogynistic tenets.

I suspect that many American Muslims deal with the misogynistic tenets of their religion the same way that most American Christians and Jews deal with the misogynistic ideas (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html) in theirs; by pretending they don't exist, or by downplaying their importance. Culture of place often trumps religious ideology.

duffer
07-04-2005, 06:50 AM
I was glad that he (the Christian) used Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh as counter examples when asked about terrorists being indicative of all Muslims.

Haven't seen the show yet, the fuck-twits ignored my demand to not work 2nd shift. So I'm taking everything I see here at face value. I'm just curious why the reference to McVeigh and Rudolph.

Personally, I celebrated McVeigh's death with a beer and a New York Strip cooked on the charcoal grill. (You gas types deserve a perma Pit thread unto yourselves) :p

However, neither of them had any real sway over Christians as a whole. Being Christian isn't what rallied them to whatever cause they wanted to promote, it was

*SHOCKER*

hang onto your hats, folks,

A hatred of the current (at the time) Administration. (A recurring theme you may see around here.)

The Muslims that are causing the stress are the Imams. You know, those leaders of the peaceful religion calling for death to the "Infidels".

I love reading posts from Dopers that cite the Crusades and the Inquisition (that happened centuries ago) as reasons to shun Christianity, but fall all over themselves apologizing for what's happening with the Islamic faith. There are leaders of the faith calling for the death and destruction of any person or country not following them.

Fellow Doper, this likely includes you. And if you're in America, it's guaranteed to include you. Listen up, they want you dead. That's not rhetoric, nor a warning, nor a threat. It's real. They want you dead. That's the plan and end goal.

If Pat Robertson, Billy Graham or anyone on TBN preaches us Christians have to kill you heathens, it will count as a point against us. I don't see it happenning.

Muslim clerics are preaching hate, firing up "the base" to kill us, and it seems the apologists only want to ignore it and mention past sins from 50 years or more.

duffer
07-04-2005, 06:55 AM
And I just realized this is CS. Post was way over the top, written in a Pit mood.

Please accept heartfelt apologies, and if the mods would oblige, just delete the post altogether.

Sampiro
07-04-2005, 04:38 PM
No apologies needed, but I do have to add that I don't know of anybody in this thread who's ever made a blanket "Muslim Fundamentalists are just misunderstood" thread; some of us have been flamed for being too critical of their beliefs. As for deaths not being ordered by American religious leaders, it has happened: Edgar Ray Killen will be in prison until he's 140 or dead for that offense. Robertson and Falwell are too legally smart to outright call for the deaths of gays and liberals, but both have accused Clinton of everything from murder to theft, attributed natural disasters and acts of terrorism to gays and feminists, and remarked on how lovely it would be if the liberal SCotUS judges would just suddenly "not be judges anymore".
Both Rudolph and McVeigh were associated with white-supremacist/ultra-right cults whose members did call for acts of violence. The Klan once boasted a membership of 1/10 of the entire U.S. male population and gained major political clout in at least three states.

I love America very much, but we do have our own homegrown violent religious wackos here. Thankfully other circumstances prevented their becoming really powerful.

Atticus Finch
07-04-2005, 11:43 PM
Duffer, I agree that your "pitting" was over the top. One misconception you might want to clear up - the idea that Islamic religious leaders are primarily behind terroristic groups etc. Is Osama a cleric? Khalid Sheik Muhammad?

I think what you'd see, looking at an Islamist terrorist group, is a "secular" leadership (ie not religious leaders eg imams or religious scholars eg ulama). There would certainly be extremist imams and scholars backing them up, I don't deny that, but they're not the prime movers.

Beyond that, your rant, like every rant on this topic, fails to acknowledge that Islamist terrorists are a very small percentage of the largely peaceful Muslim population, and the scholars and imams backing their actions are a similarly tiny lunatic fringe (equivalent to the Edgar Killens or Fred Phelpses of Christianity).

duffer
07-05-2005, 12:34 AM
Yes, I understand it's a very small minority. Keep in mind though that for a few years I've read I and all other Christians get lumped in with the likes of Phelps often.

No, Osama isn't a religious leader. I was talking about the many leaders that actually do promote the violence of jihad. In the name of Islam. Again, I forgot that I was in CS and it had no bearing to the overall thread. Again, I apologize. Heat of the moment and all that.

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